Possible to use RO from a carwash?

[needmoremaples]

I have some carwash reverse osmosis machines up for grabs. If I run a wash cycle and install new membranes, can they be salvaged for maple use? They have a high pressure pump 4-4×40 membranes (which I'll put new ones in) flow meters, valves etc. I have 2 available for me so I could sell one also.

[MapleMark753]

Well, sure an RO from a car wash might be able to be adapted to maple use, like you say, with an outstanding cleaning and new membranes. Is the whole carwash RO in good shape, or wore out?
Couple more questions: how will you feed sap to the high pressure pump? (gravity or a low pressure pump?)
how are they plumbed now, ie., are they re-pipe-able to a maple configuration?
what pressure does the high pressure pump reach? maple membrane pressure?
what benefit will four membranes give you that your current single 4x40 ro won't do? Or do you have plans for lots more taps?
Not trying to be smart or a downer, just questions I'd ask myself if I might do what you're contemplating.
good luck! hope it works great for you if thats the way you do go.
Mark

[needmoremaples]

Well, sure an RO from a car wash might be able to be adapted to maple use, like you say, with an outstanding cleaning and new membranes. Is the whole carwash RO in good shape, or wore out?
Couple more questions: how will you feed sap to the high pressure pump? (gravity or a low pressure pump?)
how are they plumbed now, ie., are they re-pipe-able to a maple configuration?
what pressure does the high pressure pump reach? maple membrane pressure?
what benefit will four membranes give you that your current single 4x40 ro won't do? Or do you have plans for lots more taps?
Not trying to be smart or a downer, just questions I'd ask myself if I might do what you're contemplating.
good luck! hope it works great for you if thats the way you do go.
Mark

All valid questions mark. It appears like it's in decent shape. I have no money stuck into this. There is 2 of them. I got them from a friend. It seems like if I get it up and running and sell 1 I can keep 1. I will have to test the pumps before buying anything definitely. I will feed with a feed pump and I have yet to determine what size I need. Currently off the HP pump it feeds 2 membranes separately and then both feed 3, then 4 in series. I do have plans for up to 800 taps and currently only do 350. My current single post RO is slower than i can cook so I'd like a bigger faster system. Maybe I should look at only doing 2-3 post for now if its overkill? New membranes dont go bad in package.

[needmoremaples]

My thoughts are to gear up in this fashion
1 remove and toss old membranes
2 fill system and flush
3 test Hp pump operation off well water pressure
4 clean system with membrane soap cleaner?
5 get new membranes, feed pump etc
6 flush new membranes and test with sap

[maple flats]

What water were they running at the car wash. If I had to guess I'd say they ran water from a sump to recycle. In that case the pumps and all components could well have gas, road tar, anti freeze and other bad things in the innards, not just the membranes. They sound like too much of a chance to risk use on a food product.

[needmoremaples]

I'm considering only reusing the shells, the pump, and flow meters. I think the piping was undersized anyways at least for maple. They go thru a water filter before hitting the membranes also. You dont think an acid or soap wash would take care of all the other stuff basically just in the pump? The shells I'll scrub with vinegar water and a scrubby pad next.

[MapleMark753]

Another concern may be lead, it was a concern for me in replacing some parts in my own RO. Test swab kits are like 12 bucks for half a dozen near me, just at a big box store. No idea near where you are but they gotta be widely available. Along the same line, some parts can be brass, and some brass can contain lead. Some parts are also certified as about lead free (sorry don't remember the exact terminology). You're most likely aware of all this stuff, but a hot water soap wash, acid wash, another soap wash, and then rinse is what I do for my 125 gph RO. (but thats in season with membranes already in).
Daves cautions above are def legit also so I'd just add my mostly "what he said" too. lol...
good luck! also if you could let us know how it turns out if you have time, that'd be great.
Mark

[johnallin]

Personally I’d pass. Using the same criteria as repurposing collection tanks. As Dave said, there may be oil or whatever in there at some time. Why risk it?
If you need to replace one or more membranes, you may as well buy an RO Bucket and see how that goes.

[needmoremaples]

John- I'm a little bigger than the ro bucket buddy. Doing 4x40x3 or 4

[amasonry]

I would ask what do you do with your syrup? sell it, give it to your kids? if you keep it I say rebuild that ro for maple. if selling to the public I would pass.

[needmoremaples]

Another concern may be lead, it was a concern for me in replacing some parts in my own RO. Test swab kits are like 12 bucks for half a dozen near me, just at a big box store. No idea near where you are but they gotta be widely available. Along the same line, some parts can be brass, and some brass can contain lead. Some parts are also certified as about lead free (sorry don't remember the exact terminology). You're most likely aware of all this stuff, but a hot water soap wash, acid wash, another soap wash, and then rinse is what I do for my 125 gph RO. (but thats in season with membranes already in).
Daves cautions above are def legit also so I'd just add my mostly "what he said" too. lol...
good luck! also if you could let us know how it turns out if you have time, that'd be great.
Mark

How would a person test that with the kit? Fill with water after a good scrub/cleaning, new lines etc? Fill with water and test the water?

[amasonry]

Before a lead test, I would replace any brass and galvanize fitting. run a wash and rinse without membranes. you already know there is stuff in there you don't want. I did the same with my 20-year-old ro. apparently, waterloo was not too worried about lead back then.

[MapleMark753]

Hey-- The lead check I was referring to is a swab type deal where the part is directly swabbed (so multiple swabs, several test places). 3M makes a test kit like this and theres videos on how to use them. Here's a quote from them-- "To use the 3M™ LeadCheck™ Swabs, the user simply crushes the cardboard at points marked “A” and “B” and shakes the swab twice. The user, holding the tip down, then squeezes the swab until a yellow liquid is visible. The user then rubs the swab on the test area for 30 seconds while continuing to squeeze the tubeTo use the 3M™ LeadCheck™ Swabs, the user simply crushes the cardboard at points marked “A” and “B” and shakes the swab twice. The user, holding the tip down, then squeezes the swab until a yellow liquid is visible. The user then rubs the swab on the test area for 30 seconds while continuing to squeeze the tube.."
There is lead testing for liquid too, like you referred to, where you send a test off to a lab, its tested there, and results are sent to you.

[johnallin]

Personally I’d pass. Using the same criteria as repurposing collection tanks. As Dave said, there may be oil or whatever in there at some time. Why risk it?
If you need to replace one or more membranes, you may as well buy an RO Bucket and see how that goes.


John- I'm a little bigger than the ro bucket buddy. Doing 4x40x3 or 4

2016 7 taps= 1-2 gallons of syrup
2017 135 taps on bags/buckets =17 gallons syrup on block arch
2018 75 taps on bags/buckets in new locations =50 gallons syrup (2 month season) on insulated barrel stove with auf and hobby r.o.
2019 less taps on different ground for 1 month season. 20 gallons. Added 4x40 RO membrane and never finished 2x4 cooker.
Creator and Mod of Wisconsin Maple Syrup Producers on FB


Where I come from, at <75 taps you're not so big.
You asked if salvaging an RO from a car wash to use for maple was a good idea...4 have said no.
Maybe you could bounce it off your Wisconsin Maple Syrup Producers Facebook page.

[BoerBoel]

John- I'm a little bigger than the ro bucket buddy. Doing 4x40x3 or 4

The RO Bucket sells a unit that handles 150+ taps and produces 20gph of concentrate.

[needmoremaples]

Again I'm bigger than the RO bucket. They take too long to produce I havent updated my signature but will do that now. Last year I did 350 taps. I boil about 300-500 gallons of sap in a day so that's not even close to my needs. Also the RO bucket is easily built on your own and save 100 bucks. I know because I did it before they even came out. With the single 4x40 I was pulling a gallon of water out in 2 min. Trying to get it where I'm matching my boiling speed. At the current rate I have to stop cooking and wait for the RO to catch up while recirculating batches. But really none of that is about the post. I was hoping to get more than opinions and maple mark gave some great info. Was hoping to get something from dr Perkins or another expert.

[DrTimPerkins]

It "might" be possible to make the car wash RO workable, but you'd have to replace the membranes, replace any lead-containing fittings (anything brass) in contact with the sap or concentrate, replace any rubber or plastic seals anywhere all throughout the machine (these can pick up chemicals and can cause odor/taste issues), then do a couple of rounds (minimum) of soap and acid washes and rinses (leaving the membranes out for at least the first round). It can be really difficult to get detergents and oil out of machines.

And obviously you'd want to keep what comes out of the "discharge" side of this RO rather than the permeate that the car wash was after.

Would I recommend it to most people? Probably not.

[needmoremaples]

TY DR PERKINS! This would cost me 7-10k so buying some new membranes, piping and seals is alot cheaper. And yes I'm aware the permeate was their "product".

[carls47807]

I would get the model number off the booster pump and look into what it is made of (stainless, brass, maybe look at an internal parts diagram). A lot of those older car wash boosters have cast iron heads and can only boost to 80psi. It probably isn't fda and contains brass impellers, screens, housings, etc. Did you say the membrane housings are stainless or poly (poly will hold contaminants). The orings are probably non fda buna. If you could reuse the infrastructure at the basic level and are saving enough to justify redoing the rest of it, obviously it would be worth it. If you are paying 10c on the dollar it won't take much to end up ahead.

When you start measuring things at the ppm level, it is very difficult/impossible to "clean" anything that has any porosity to it. If you rebuild the system and then test lead, you are back at square 1 with a lot of money invested.

[fred]

at the end of the day you are making a food product. this does not belong in a maple system PERIOD!! if you offended oh well, what goes in a persons body is critical and long term. you will not get it clean enough to use for syrup. can you imagine what particles of nasty crap has gone through the machine as a rinse off of vehicles , NO THANKS

[johnallin]

As a follow up to Fred and Dr Tim...
Looks like you’re now making 70 gals of syrup and I’d guess that with 40 acres, you will make even more in the upcoming seasons. I think it would be fair to assume that you’re going to be - or already are - selling some of that syrup.

If that’s a correct assumption, there should now be little doubt in your mind that producing and selling syrup produced with questionable equipment would not be ethical. 100% Pure Maple should be just that.
You’re playing roulette here to try and save a buck. It’s just not worth the risk to your reputation nor the health and well being of those who trust your product was produced in a professional manner.
Hopefully, with the advice from some of the experts - I am not one of them- you will reconsider.

[buckeye gold]

Let me put this way, What if you put a sign out at your sales point or a notice on your containers saying, "this syrup made by using reconditioned carwash equipment, use at your own risk". How much syrup do you think you'd sell? Yeah, I wouldn't buy it. Doesn't the consumer have a right to know what they are getting?

[MapleMark753]

Well, I have had advice and used it from several of the writers here, so I would tend now to not use that RO. But, if you already have them and are working on them,(trying to read between the lines...lol...) why not contact someone (or some people) in person from your state association to see what they say and what advice they offer. When I have needed a real world word with someone or a bit of advice our association here has been helpful. And they're not likely to yell at you, but tell it like it is, there, where you are. Anyways, thats what I'd do.
good luck
Mark

[needmoremaples]

The only thing being re-used will be stainless. That being said it is down to the membrane housings and the pump. I need to get more info on the pump and also take apart to see what its internals are made of. Thank you for all the comments. I would only run it if I can certify it. I cleaned two of the stainless housings and they cleaned up well with vinegar/water and a scrubby pad. This will all undergo a soap wash/acid wash and rinse if I can deem the pump useable.

[minehart gap]

needmoremaples, you had made a comment about price earlier in this thread and with the sap flow path that you stated with most likely (but maybe) not having an option to recirculate, you would be around 375 gph, I think. Deer Run Maple makes a new 500 RO for about $5k. That is around half of what your thinking that you would have in a larger RO per your comment.

Just something to consider.

I too would be nervous to use a product that was once used to literally filter out dirt and petroleum products for the purpose of making food no matter how much cleaning was done. My reputation matters more to me than saving money does though because reputation makes money.

Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

[MapleMark753]

OK, so I do actually have an additional thought... Some (maybe most?) car wash ROs have a large stand alone filter before the water hits the RO machine, and I think these larger stand alones are carbon filled. Which, can be good for catching lots of bad stuff, and can be back flushed (just cleaned I mean). But if this is the case while the machine may be cleaner than would have otherwise been, its bad for maple sap, may even be illegal to use in maple syrup operations in some (all?) jurisdictions. A 5 or 10 micron sediment filter (not carbon) is what most use in their ROs I think. I use a 10 micron, just on the theory that in 5 minutes use its a 5 micron anyway through natural accumulation of stuff.
Shorter version of the above: if the car wash RO has a carbon filter dont use it.
just my suggestion
good luck
Mark

[DrTimPerkins]

....if the car wash RO has a carbon filter dont use it.

Absolutely not. Carbon filtration of sap or syrup would be illegal according to the definition of pure maple syrup.

Secondly, please don't take my earlier suggestion as gospel in any way. Could it be done? Perhaps, with a great deal of effort, and a lingering feeling of uncertainty. Would I recommend it or do it? Never. We had an RO system donated to us that was used in a lab that was only ever used to convert municipal water to RO water, but didn't consider using it for maple sap.

[needmoremaples]

Yes as I said only the stainless housings and pump will be re-used. The stand and the electrical also. I did find that the pump is all stainless/no carbon steel. Going to call mf today and see what they think.

[needmoremaples]

Called the manufacturer and these pumps wont work at all for sap due to the seals. They would be leaking in 1 months time or less. Thanks for all opinions and comments.