Positive Pressure Pump for Cleaning 3/16" Lines

[jackhdn]

Hi Folks,

Long time lurker here. I have approximately 900 taps on a steep site in Western Mass. I only sell sap. I have a double Guzzler (controlled by a Mountain Maple Controller) pulling on about 2500' of 1" mainline (cheap black poly). I have about 50 3/16" lines joining the mainline. I have as much as 300 vertical feet from the tops to my tank. The system is 4-5 years old and the 3/16" lines are getting nasty. I do have power on site.

I have tried flushing the system with my well and an air compressor but can only flush the lower lines due to the elevation. I have also tried the squirt bottle Maple Flats suggests. I found the squirt bottle difficult to get the drops filled with enough contact time to sanitize well. I would like to try some kind of positive pressure pump to better flush the upper lines. I would have to have a pressure relief set at around 100psi to protect the poly. Hauling a tank to the top and flushing down is not a good option due to the steep terrain.

Any suggestions for a pump which will not break the bank? I would be flushing with sodium hypochlorite and then water. I know the bleach can be hard on pumps but it will only be used once a year and I am hoping a thorough wash and flush would protect it. Chemical resistant pumps seem to be very expensive.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Jack
Buckland MA

[minehart gap]

I believe that your issue will be the 300' of head plus friction loss.

A quick search came up with using a deep well pump but they are primarily pull up instead of push up that you would need. Im not sure if that would matter though. The other consideration is do you have a way to isolate one lateral at a time so that the pump is only dealing with the friction and head for that one lateral? Or would you be pumping into individual laterals? Or would the pump be filling the entire system at one time?
Not sure of your layout but perhaps a gas engine pump might be able to overcome the elevation and friction if you were to clean individual laterals from the bottom of that lateral but I have not seen one that is rated for 300' head.
A stainless steel pump housing and impeller would handle the cleaners.

My sugar bush is similar to yours with around 300' elevation change and 2000 feet on mainline but until this year I have only used vacuum created from gravity. I have been using vice grips to pinch the tubing at the bottom of the lateral then using a pump up sprayer to fill the lateral one spout at a time. PITA and time consuming but it seems to be working. I will definitely be following this thread for ideas. Good luck.

[MapleCamp]

You could try a progressive cavity pump, they can over come a lot of head pressure.

[maple flats]

If you ever were to get a pump that can push 300' of head, the tubing fittings would blow apart. They are not made to grip the tubing at such pressure. Somehow, you must clean from the top IMHO.

[DrTimPerkins]

If you ever were to get a pump that can push 300' of head, the tubing fittings would blow apart. They are not made to grip the tubing at such pressure. Somehow, you must clean from the top IMHO.

Agree with both parts of this reply. Fittings would blow apart and probably best to clean from top down.

[Brian]

I have a goodrich tubing washer and push water up 800-1000 vertical feet and 3/4 of a mile up the hill. I think I am the only one around this area that still washes pipe line.

[jackhdn]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Matt---I can valve off maybe 400 of the taps at different points. When I tried flushing before I tied off the mainline loops with a tie wire to block sections of lateral, only trying to flush say 4 laterals at a time.

Brian, Thanks. Does your washer only use fluid or does it use air as well? As Doctor Tim and Dave stated I would be very concerned about splitting poly mainline and blowing fittings. If you are lifting over 800' you must be building some high pressure?

Cleaning from the top would be tough I think. By my math a 100' run of 3/16 would have about 5.5 gallons of fluid in it. Basically 1 backpack sprayer for every one of my 50 laterals (some are only 300-400 but they do reach 1000). If I had a 4 wheeler I could maybe tow a 50 gallon tank up there but I don't. In the future I will be switching to a traditional high vac system on 5/16...the 3/16 is just lots of work.

Jack

[DrTimPerkins]

I have a goodrich tubing washer and push water up 800-1000 vertical feet and 3/4 of a mile up the hill. I think I am the only one around this area that still washes pipe line.

Yes, if you use air/water mix appropriately it can work. Won’t work simply with an inexpensive pump.

[Brian]

I have manifolds to control the water to each main line. the pump is set to bypass at 75-80 psi and the air is set at around 100 psi. and make sure at least 3 tubing end lines are open at all time, works great. When I first started washing pipe line, I could not afford a Goodrich tubing washer and used a cheap shallow well pump from abuchons and a 40 gallon air compressor from Homedepot with a make shift air/water manifold. It worked but not as good as Glen Goodriches. I belive the rule is 2 shots of air to one shot of water.

[Biz]

I was just looking at sap volumes in tubing recently so this caught my eye. 100' of 3/16 tubing has only about a pint of fluid in it if full (0.14 gallons) so you might need less that expected. 100' of 1" tubing has about 4 gallons when full, so 100 gallons will fill the 2500 ft 1" line.

Dave


Thanks for the replies guys.

By my math a 100' run of 3/16 would have about 5.5 gallons of fluid in it.

Jack

[maple flats]

It's not the volume of water in the tubing, but the push required to push it up 300' above the pump. Unless you have a blend of air and water it will fail.
Years ago I successfully washed from the bottom of the hill. I used a Honda WX15 and an oilless air compressor and a generator to run the compressor. I made a manifold to combine both into the mainline. I ran the compressor at 90 psi, the WX15 at just below medium throttle. It worked ok, but my greatest lift was only 80' and the flow out the highest drops was certainly not as vigorous as those 30' lower down. At that time, all of my laterals and drops were 5/16. My mains were 3/4" and 1". I could only have 2 open at any time on the higher up sections, 3 on the lower areas. We did it as a 2 man team, the first one pulled the tap, the next followed behind 2-3 taps and plugged the taps. We did get wet at times, since especially the lower taps "danced" around when let go of, the higher ones not so much. We never had less than 2 open at any time. On the last 2, one would go back down and shut off the pump and compressor. We then left the top tap open for 2-3 days to help drain the system.

[Super Sapper]

It would take 130 psi at the pump to reach 300 feet in elevation.

[Brian]

Not with the air water mix ,because the air floats the water up the hill.

[minehart gap]

Out of curiosity, how does the air "float the water up the hill" without the air bubbling up through the water and just let the water at the bottom?

[Brian]

Picture didn't come through.

[Brian]

lets see if this up loaded.

[Brian]

This is a picture I found on the internet of a goodrich tubing washer. It looks like it has been sitting a while.Mine has a gould pump on it instead of th teel pump.

[Super Sapper]

Out of curiosity, how does the air "float the water up the hill" without the air bubbling up through the water and just let the water at the bottom?

The air does 2 things here. First is displaces some of the water reducing the weight (head) against the pump. Second, you need enough air to create bubbles large enough to fill the space in the line. The water does go around the bubble as it travels up but another bubble is behind it and will help push it along. You can use air alone to move water up a pipe but it is not very efficient, this is called an air-lift pump. Basically the air is just reducing the backpressure on the pump allowing it to pump to a higher level. Just remember to add air after the pump.

[DrTimPerkins]

Air-water washing of maple tubing was the standard in the industry for about 20 yrs. While it does remove and dilute sap, it is not effective in sanitizing the tubing (killing microbes). In many cases, instead of mold/fungi/bacteria (if you didn't clean), you'd end up with algae growing in the lines, especially in droplines. To be effective, you need to use a sanitizer solution (either sodium or calcium bleach), then rinse with water and allow to drain, or alternatively (if you don't rinse), allow the first sap to run on the ground. The key to chemical sanitizing is that there is sufficient contact time allowed for the sanitizer to work. A few seconds is not enough.

[Brian]

In the early 2000,s there was research done in Canada with Glens tubing washer, It beat washing with bleach. I can't find the results. Bleach won hands down after the wash but at the end of summer when tested again Glens water with air pump tested cleaner than the bleach system.I have seen the in sides of main lines after the stuff is sucked down the lines. Not clean to me. I don't get any crap in my releasers or filters at the first run except sawdust from tapping. I have not made any dark syrup in years,and will still wash my lines with Glens Tubing Washer.

[maple flats]

Back when I washed with a water/air mixture. I made a manifold up. One inlet was a hose fitting for water in out of a 1" gas powered pump (i mis-spoke earlier, I now realized it was before I had my Honda WX15 pump. Another inlet had an air hose connection and a swing check valve. The outlet from that manifold had a 1" camlock to mate with one I had on the low end of the mainline. When running is, my water supply was a 210 gal truck water tank, with 100 gal water and 1.5 qts sodium chloride (non scented) (that was before I learned about calcium chloride to minimize squirrel issues). I ran a .8hp 1" pump, about 1/3 above idle and the 2hp airless compressor ran full force. In use that little compressor could only keep about 35-40 psi on the system but it cleaned fairly well.
One year we tried hydrogen peroxide instead of chlorine, it seemed to do well, but after washing our clothes we found we had essentially ruined our blue jeans and the front of our shirts. The peroxide had been strong enough that it damaged the materiels and a washing left it with lots of holes, most small, but not all.
This however did wash the tubing from the bottom, but my lift was only 80-100' depending on which section I was washing. That set-up wold not push up 300' or more. A different pump would be needed and maybe more air.