Mainline lag eyebolts

[Minnesota Tapper]

I ordered 7/16" x 5-1/4" long lag eyebolts for anchoring my mainline at top and bottom. I was under the impression the circle eye part was not factored into the total length. I was wrong😬. There's about 3" of length that would actually screw into the anchor trees. Is 3" enough or do I need something longer? I'm using 1" tube with high tensile wire.

[maple flats]

I use drive in anchors like what utility companies use. The drive in threaded part is less than 3", I've never had one pull loose.
By the way, you need a way to relieve the tension every few years so you can unhook the anchor and back it off a little or the anchor will become burried in the tree trunk until a sawyer encounters it, either with a chainsaw or a sawmill. The drive in anchors I use are coursly threaded to back them off. a link www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/Hook-Screws-Drive-Galvanized-Steel/Powerline-Hardware/P3316P/product.aspx?zpid=745500 or here http://www.newtechindustries.com/7-16-x-4-3-4-drive-hook-pole-line-hardware/
The second one is lower cost and a larger picture.
Looks like they are now available in any qty, back when I bought mine the only way I found them was in a box of 50, or multiples of that. Those hooks are very heavily galvanized. I drill a 1/4" hole about an inch deep, then drive them in using a 2 or 3# hammer. To back then off later on, I use a 12" or larger adjustable wrench (Crescent) . The 1/4" hole makes it easier to start. I just checked, the threads are only about 2" and the tip is another 1/2 " in length.

[eagle lake sugar]

Maple Flats is correct, the J hooks we used in the phone company will not pull out. I haven't switched to them yet, I'm still wrapping the high tensile fence wire around the end tree, but I've seen studies where the J hooks are the way to go.

[maple flats]

If interested try the second link in post 2 above. I just fixed it, somehow the link I posted yesterday did not get copied completely yesterday. Do a search too, those are just the first 2 I got when I searched it.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered new utility pole/ j hooks. The eyebolts I had purchased have what I would call a fine thread. Similar to what you would find at a hardware store. These j hooks look to have much more aggressive threads. Hopefully they will last a long time.

[eagle lake sugar]

Thanks for the advice. I ordered new utility pole/ j hooks. The eyebolts I had purchased have what I would call a fine thread. Similar to what you would find at a hardware store. These j hooks look to have much more aggressive threads. Hopefully they will last a long time.

They're also supposed to be driven in the tree or pole perpendicular to the strand, not facing it. That way the entire tree would need to split in order for the hook to pull out.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Really? I was under the impression that the more angle off to the side the wire pulls on an anchor, the weaker the anchor becomes. Your way (j hook perpindicular to the wire) does make it almost impossible for it to strip from the tree.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Mount them perpendicular to the wire? I was told the wirebshould come straight off the hook and the more angled sideways the wire pulls the weaker it becomes. I have no clue never done mainline before. If perpendicular is the best way I can do that.

[maple flats]

I had not heard that and my hooks are all facing the wire, never pulled loose.

[eagle lake sugar]

I had not heard that and my hooks are all facing the wire, never pulled loose.

In a telephone pole they're designed to be perpendicular to the running strand or wire for strength purposes. It may be less of an issue with maple lines because the tree will grow around it.

[TapTapTap]

Here's my 2 cents

There are 2 issues at play
1 eyebolt structural capacity
2 Embedment capacity in tree

On structural bolt capacity, the bolt has higher capacity with in-line loading which is straight down the axis of the bolt. While angled loading is okay with a reduction factor as it approaches 90 deg. Side loading away from the eye is discouraged.

On Embedment, pure tension is preferred. Angled loading is again acceptable with reductions. I think the angled loading is even more problematic since if a crack formed through the tree at the bolt then the angled loading would cause more prying on the crack and perhaps with cyclical loading when the wind blows.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Been putting up mainline wire with the j hooks. They hold very well! However I had one pull out. My fault, I had anchored it into a basswood. And I had way to much pulling on that one j hook. I'll be using only hardwood trees to anchor too from now on.
2 questions I have.

1. When I install my 1" mainline tubing can I put the finger trap tensioners on the same j hook as the wire or will that be too much pull for one hook?

2. I have a 200 foot long stretch of wire and 3/4" mainline left to put up. The only anchor tree on the top end of this line is a massive silver maple. Will the silver hold the j hook or pull out like the basswood did? Im not sure where silvers are on the range of wood hardness.

Thanks for all the help. I'm certainly learning by trial and error!

[JoeJ]

1. I put both the mainline wire and the mainline "Chinese finger" on the same J hook. I have not had any ever pull out. At this time of year,I would caution you to be careful on how tight you pull the mainline through
the tension grip. When you install the mainline, if the temperature is below 30*, be careful with how tight the line is. I replaced an old 500' 3/4" line with 1" in November a few years ago and put way too much
tension on the line and when the weather down to 0*, the line pulled apart 4" at a 1" SS Y that had double hose clamps on the Y .

2. I would anchor into the silver maple with no worry at all.

Joe

[ennismaple]

In a telephone pole they're designed to be perpendicular to the running strand or wire for strength purposes. It may be less of an issue with maple lines because the tree will grow around it. For the start and end trees we drive the J-hooks into the the tree in line with the mainline. We crank the steel pretty tight so if it was on the side it would bend the J-hook right over. We pre-drill a 1/4" hole to get the J-hook started and then twist in until it's at the end of the threads. When we use hydro poles to get over roads we'll use a D-loop bolted through the pole.

[Kh7722]

Can i ask why use any hardware into the tree? Seems like another point of failure as well as the Mechancical ratchet tensioners. Seems like everyone i have spoken with its 50/50 on bolts and ratchets vs splice and side ties. Any discussion? Or is it a ford/chevy thing

[JoeJ]

I made the decision two years ago to use J hooks at anchor points after using end of the line wire wraps with 1/2" or 3/4" plastic tubing for 16 years. Over the years, I loosened ratchets at the end points and moved the plastic wrapped wire up or down as needed to get the end line wire out of the growing groove that the wire was in. Even though I was trying to be diligent about moving the wires every couple years, some got away from me and a few almost wrapped new wood growth completely around the plastic pipe. I then decided that using the J hooks might be better for my anchor trees than having the growth grooves. After all, I have seen spouts left in the tree overgrown with new wood, turnbuckles and cable in trees to hold large branches together covered up, and pictures of sap buckets half overgrown with wood. In all these instance, the trees were still alive.

I am pleased with the results of using the J hooks (about 40 of them) after 2 seasons. I like to run my main line straight using mostly posts and use very few tree tie backs. I use 18 gauge SS lashing wire to hang the mainline wire on the post and the same wire for tree tiebacks. If a big enough tree branch or tree comes down on the mainline, it just snaps the SS wire without damaging the pipe. I would rather have to put back up new lashing wire on four posts rather than fixing kinks or flattened mainline. At some 45* corners, I do double the lashing wire to hold the directional change tension.

Joe

[ennismaple]

Can i ask why use any hardware into the tree? Seems like another point of failure as well as the Mechancical ratchet tensioners. Seems like everyone i have spoken with its 50/50 on bolts and ratchets vs splice and side ties. Any discussion? Or is it a ford/chevy thing My father was an electrical contractor and built power lines so we always had lots of used pole-top hardware kicking around to use in the sugar bush. We also over-built everything and used 1/4" or larger guy steel (the multi-strand stuff) and not the single strand high tensile wire. We are still using some of the same attachment points today that he put into trees 35 years ago.

If you install the hardware when the tree is not frozen you don't run the risk of splitting the tree - the damage is not much different than a taphole if you pre-drill a pilot hole. We've wrapped the mainline around the end tree and used 2x4 blocking to keep the wire out of the sapwood but over time the wood disintegrates and the tree grows so you need to re-shim the wire. Over the last 5 years we've installed some single strand #9 wire and it tends to break when a limb falls on it. We have never once had the 1/4" guy steel break.

I should also say that a lot of our mainlines are very flat - most are under 1% slope. This means we need to get them singing tight to avoid dips in the mainline. #9 high tensile wire simply can't stay tight enough over time. We also have a LOT of mainline out in the woods - somewhere above 20,000 feet - so we don't have time to mess around re-tensioning ratchets and adjusting side ties. I want to put it up once, get it straight and downhill and be done with it.

[DrTimPerkins]

Wanted to return to this recent post. We have had several different companies install tubing systems in our woods over the past 15 yrs. Several of them used anchor bolts (typically in non-crop trees), some did not. For those that did, the bolts were always installed straight in from the wire, not at a 90 deg angle. Lag bolts are designed to hold in tension (straight out), not against shear stress (from the side). Holes were predrilled, the bolt tapped in and then turned in. Occasionally we've had to back a few off a little to accommodate tree growth. We have had at least one pull out (tree rotted -- beech), with quite a bit of snap-back of the tubing system...was difficult to retension properly and get it all in the same geometry (saddles on top and in the right positions).

We just had in the past few weeks a custom 1,000+ tap installation (mainline only) commercially installed by Green Mountain Mainlines. Excellent install. Not an anchor bolt anywhere. All attachments of wire were tiebacks or supported on cedar posts and it is TIGHT.

The install itself was a bit unusual it in that it was a dual mainline system throughout, but these are not wet/dry lines. One of the lines will be used to tap ONLY red maples (~500 taps) and the other will collect sap from ONLY sugar maples (~ 500 taps). All the sap for each species will run through separate tubing, separate releasers, and separate tanks, but the vacuum pump will be the same and the trees are spread out through the entire area. This way we can quantify the sap yield, sap sugar content, sap chemistry, and timing of sap flow from the two species (including when the trees bud and the sap turns buddy). The sap will remain separate when run through an RO and then boiled in separate side-by-side evaporators before blind taste testing trials. Sap collection won't start until the 2022 season. The Principal Investigator of this work is Dr. Abby van den Berg. The work is funded by a USDA grant.

In addition, a third line was run from the shed to the sugarhouse to serve as a future pump line for that area and an adjacent area. No more trucking after that. :)

[sapman]

Wanted to return to this recent post. We have had several different companies install tubing systems in our woods over the past 15 yrs. Several of them used anchor bolts (typically in non-crop trees), some did not. For those that did, the bolts were always installed straight in from the wire, not at a 90 deg angle. Lag bolts are designed to hold in tension (straight out), not against shear stress (from the side). Holes were predrilled, the bolt tapped in and then turned in. Occasionally we've had to back a few off a

We just had in the past few weeks a custom 1,000+ tap installation (mainline only) commercially installed by Green Mountain Mainlines. Excellent install. Not an anchor bolt anywhere. All attachments of wire were tiebacks or supported on cedar posts and it is TIGHT.

The install itself was a bit unusual it in that it was a dual mainline system throughout, but these are not wet/dry lines. One of the lines will be used to tap ONLY red maples (~500 taps) and the other will collect sap from ONLY sugar maples (~ 500 taps). All the sap for each species will run through separate tubing, separate releasers, and separate tanks, but the vacuum pump will be the same and the trees are spread out through the entire area. This way we can quantify the sap yield, sap sugar content, sap chemistry, and timing of sap flow from the two species (including when the trees bud and the sap turns buddy). The sap will remain separate when run through an RO and then boiled in separate side-by-side evaporators before blind taste testing trials. Sap collection won't start until the 2022 season. The Principal Investigator of this work is Dr. Abby van den Berg. The work is funded by a USDA grant.

In addition, a third line was run from the shed to the sugarhouse to serve as a future pump line for that area and an adjacent area. No more trucking after that. :)

Dr Tim, so were the mainline ends wrapped around trees by Green Mountain?

Glad to hear about the upcoming red maple study. Too bad not starting for another year. Wish there could be a study on silvers, but I'm sure there aren't enough in your area.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim, so were the mainline ends wrapped around trees by Green Mountain?

Glad to hear about the upcoming red maple study. Too bad not starting for another year. Wish there could be a study on silvers, but I'm sure there aren't enough in your area.

I’ll get some photos to post next time I’m there (still working remotely most days).

Yes, we had originally planned to start the study in spring 2021, but circumstances slowed things down a good bit.

No silvers at UVM Proctor Maple Res Ctr other than a few hundred seedlings we’ve planted within the past 5 yrs.

[Kh7722]

Wanted to return to this recent post. We have had several different companies install tubing systems in our woods over the past 15 yrs. Several of them used anchor bolts (typically in non-crop trees), some did not. For those that did, the bolts were always installed straight in from the wire, not at a 90 deg angle. Lag bolts are designed to hold in tension (straight out), not against shear stress (from the side). Holes were predrilled, the bolt tapped in and then turned in. Occasionally we've had to back a few off a little to accommodate tree growth. We have had at least one pull out (tree rotted -- beech), with quite a bit of snap-back of the tubing system...was difficult to retension properly and get it all in the same geometry (saddles on top and in the right positions).

We just had in the past few weeks a custom 1,000+ tap installation (mainline only) commercially installed by Green Mountain Mainlines. Excellent install. Not an anchor bolt anywhere. All attachments of wire were tiebacks or supported on cedar posts and it is TIGHT.

The install itself was a bit unusual it in that it was a dual mainline system throughout, but these are not wet/dry lines. One of the lines will be used to tap ONLY red maples (~500 taps) and the other will collect sap from ONLY sugar maples (~ 500 taps). All the sap for each species will run through separate tubing, separate releasers, and separate tanks, but the vacuum pump will be the same and the trees are spread out through the entire area. This way we can quantify the sap yield, sap sugar content, sap chemistry, and timing of sap flow from the two species (including when the trees bud and the sap turns buddy). The sap will remain separate when run through an RO and then boiled in separate side-by-side evaporators before blind taste testing trials. Sap collection won't start until the 2022 season. The Principal Investigator of this work is Dr. Abby van den Berg. The work is funded by a USDA grant.

In addition, a third line was run from the shed to the sugarhouse to serve as a future pump line for that area and an adjacent area. No more trucking after that. :)

Great to see the red maple study that is happening! We tap 98% reds, so the maple flavor is not effected by the sugars. Other sugarmakers in our area downplay the reds and dont tap them at all saying that it only makes dark and that it is “junk” syrup. We made light, amber, and dark just like the sugars and am convinced that the syrup is just as high quality. I am finishing up a custom install now of about 1100 taps which was only supposed to be 600 with sugars only, they will make alot more product this year adding the reds to the operation.
On this install just like all the ones we do like Dr.Tim says, not a piece of hardware anywhere in the woods. The mainline wire is as tight as a piano string using only side ties and braids to connect wires. We wrap aroind the trees (dosnt girdle,) with protection and future adjustment available.

[TapTapTap]

I'll have my own little soft vs hard maple research happening starting this spring. We are expanding our sugarbush to a nice stand of large mature maples which is very similar to our existing upper stand. Our lower sugarbush is a few sugars mixed in with a lot of reds. The lower stand is also much wetter with poorer draining soils. All our trees are currently on just one releaser.

The new setup will isolate the upper bushes from the lower with two separate releasers and I'll be able to check sugars and consider quality degradation on the lower sugarbush as the season advances. If the lower bush is starting to get buddy then I'll shut if off. I'm thinking that I can extend the season by another boil or two and still maintain good quality.

[DrTimPerkins]

I’ll get some photos to post next time I’m there (still working remotely most days).

Some examples of our recent mainline installation.

21666

21667

21668

[DrTimPerkins]

Some examples of our recent mainline installation.


A few more....

21669

21670

[therealtreehugger]

Can i ask why use any hardware into the tree? Seems like another point of failure as well as the Mechancical ratchet tensioners. Seems like everyone i have spoken with its 50/50 on bolts and ratchets vs splice and side ties. Any discussion? Or is it a ford/chevy thing

I am also in favor of not damaging the trees any more than tapping. I wrap padded wire around similar to Dr. Tim’s pictures. Now I realize that many may say that lag bolts and such are not damaging the trees significantly, but I like to be nice to all the trees. Yeah I know, you can call me the Lorax!

Also: Ford.

[Littletreemaple]

Hi Dr Tim. What brand of tubing is that? Any specific reason for black?

[DrTimPerkins]

Lapierre mainline for this install, but we've used all different types over the years. We've not seen a lot of difference between blue or black mainline in terms of sap quality (we have sections of both in our woods). We have seen some types of blue mainline fail a bit earlier than black. We're also fairly high elevation (1200-1600 ft) with a LOT of snow, so black helps things get moving earlier in the season that blue does.

[82cabby]

If you don’t mind me asking a rookie question, what type of wire should be used for the tie back?

[JoeJ]

When I first started with main lines and tubing in 2003, I was sold 14 gauge tie back wire to use on 9 gauge main line wire. Over time, what I found out with trees and branches falling on my main lines was that there was damage happening to the plastic main line piping because the 14 gauge wire used on the tie back was too strong. In 2010, I switched to an 18 gauge stainless steel lashing wire that CDL sells. The lashing wire will break under the strain of a big branch or tree that falls on the main line with no damage to the mainline 95% of the time. Over time, I did find out that on sharp turns, I have to double the 18 gauge wire to hold up to the tension of the sharp turn.

Joe

[82cabby]

When I first started with main lines and tubing in 2003, I was sold 14 gauge tie back wire to use on 9 gauge main line wire. Over time, what I found out with trees and branches falling on my main lines was that there was damage happening to the plastic main line piping because the 14 gauge wire used on the tie back was too strong. In 2010, I switched to an 18 gauge stainless steel lashing wire that CDL sells. The lashing wire will break under the strain of a big branch or tree that falls on the main line with no damage to the mainline 95% of the time. Over time, I did find out that on sharp turns, I have to double the 18 gauge wire to hold up to the tension of the sharp turn.


Joe


Thank you for the reply! I appreciate the help.

[ennismaple]

Either the 14 or 18ga wire mentioned will work well. We also use the CDL Rapi-strap for tying back mainline. Other mainline ties that have been used in our woods are: old rope (various sizes, colour), bailer twine, ratchet straps, fence wire, bull tape and even electrical tape. I'm pretty sure that a section of grape vine would work as a temporary fix in a pinch! Sometimes you have to use whatever is kicking around in the truck.

[buckeye gold]

Yeah ennis I've used a few scrap pieces of 3/16 tubing too, if you can tie it or wedge it and it's available use it