Ebay Flat Pans

[Tuckeradams2012]

Morning All,

First new thread here on the forum, and am very happy to glean all of the information that I have off of this forum so far. I have been agonizing over pan selection for my first year, and not wanting to waste all of my money at once, potentially having a stepping stone to build up funds for the next year is looking very appealing. I will be boiling on weekends mostly, but if I have good runs, might go up to camp to boil on a weeknight if it starts to get heavy. I also am getting knee surgery after a brutal ski accident, so my season may be limited based on recovery.

I have been looking at the Badgerland CF 2x4 Pan, which have great reviews, come with solid accessories and are thin for some great heat transfer. However at approx. $500, it is pretty expensive for a first year sugaring (having already spent a ton on tubing, tools, fire brick etc.) and I wavering on whether I even need a CF Pan based on my boiling situation and tap count. With that being said, I've been toying with the idea of a Flat Pan instead, and found these ones online. Yes they are made in China, Yes they are 16 gauge. But they are 304 stainless, would else would be the downfall? Does the thickness make that much of a difference in boil rate? Has anyone had experiences with these pans? It's $75. Maybe it would be a great backup/extra pan for the future when (not IF) I upgrade to a CF Pan. Appreciate any thoughts you may have!



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Maple-Syrup-Boiling-Pan-48-x24-Sap-Evaporator-Tig-Welded-Sliver-Stainless-Steel/233578391583?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item36625b681f:g:lPcAAOSwsVVfadkg&enc=AQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90 Z278x5ickkai8xCwosGKpC0NWj85e%2FB9bZy2fHgNKFyTiLCZ GSAvr5QaESqr5KBT%2FhYsjyKnnPhl9nTkpLOHfBS87LNODHXq JUuN28O7EtA%2Bt2a8U9aGkiXeSY0Gv6hr2H45Iudh2ddjyRTN gF%2B3k0c645llPq6NlCaWxbTOtVocq9eLtjx53q0WXoY8KKnI AswTwcAIHaSMvo5rHvnBirKJKwBd7p%2BrR46AVlgSiV%2BcFh GKPV8ObacgqystO%2FRY2%2BYnhLLN%2Fre04Qv97ZFOfrzkge BKbqiN1GHmtz2U5wwpduc9vBFtK%2Fyhtht%2FUS9ZP2VTG%2B vyneo6LEgiNb%2BDnqbGI3FvyS3DiMSGApYSa%2BS5Qj%2F5IM kWgW8%2FMOBIcxHR%2Bt1LYQMofzcifHLTcfPCNLR7DtjNtRXD JHz1tDNRnIrTLfiU62W%2B0Jmqjfd29Q%2BctcIaecyMOsi3YA nMDV%2BlF7BWLPxMGaaYcLvtnYF5OwAwEjkdSkBF7zZ2OyDUBv VqOSSH%2BWOyTyLvrp2GUE9VwjLazVi4qVgEk3qLcDn4s1ekKH ozyaTgzlltYiK6pj7nnKIdiLdpePLblVD2VE3%2B239tgkynhH VR8E11Hg2V1Ed%2BlLOQrrWi9swR0n8cBbjoJCOS8bfocrP9N% 2BZBoE3U5medJMlPdA9J3Nfv%2BGl1jAi%2FqgsB9UaFuhDvvQ 13jgYwXy40xOoLyMOHLJRFV0%2FYseMRW7CwAN74rCFtZ8ACwr vxZcuDBpGgy4id45gpsdcc9kAZWoAP%2Fy&checksum=23357839158315270c06a03a4d539152656fe75aa 5a9&shqty=1&isGTR=1#shId

[minehart gap]

Personally, I would be cautious of purchasing a mail order maple syrup pan from a country that does not produce maple syrup. There are several small fabrication shops that make maple syrup pans or try to locate an Amish tin smith near you.. Maybe it's just me but I don't think that the savings would be worth the chance of a bad weld job and the trouble that may occur when trying to return it when every day is one day closer to maple season.

Good luck with your season, hope you the best.
Warning: making maple syrup is addictive, expensive and time consuming. But a lot of fun.

Perhaps you could look at purchasing the front cross flow pan for the size of evaporator that you would like to one day have.

[Pdiamond]

Since you have been looking at the badgerland pan, look at the video that was produced by smokey lake about those chiina pans. Smokey lake builds the badgerland products. You may get some eye opening after seeing the video.

[Ross]

Just remember that you can draw off finished syrup with a divided pan. With a flat pan you will have more work finishing it on something else. A 2X4 flat pan holds 5 gallons at 1 inch depth so you are going to have a lot of more work finishing. It really depends what you want to do but the decision on which type of pan is more than just saving some money.

If you are looking to save some money you can check out the pans from Silver Creek. http://www.maplesyruppans.com I have equipment from him and been to his shop. He is professional and trustworthy. Otherwise I doubt you will regret getting a Badgerland divided pan.

Good luck and have fun.

[maple flats]

I would also be very leery about buying a Chinese pan. Chinese SS is not going to be the same quality as American SS. The high potential for damage in transit would also concern me.
I would suggest you either buy a Badgerland, a Mason, A Sunrise or a Silver Creek if you want a lower cost pan. Two points to consider, An 8" tall pan will lose less because less will "jump out" when boiling hard than a 6" or 7" tall pan. Second, the dividers strengthen the pan as well as allowing you to draw off finished syrup, both are good to get.
Yes, the gauge matters, 20 ga will boil better than 16 or 18 ga. That is because SS is not really a good conductor of heat, thus the thinner it is the more heat that is transferred thru. SS is still by far the best material for evaporator pans, in fact, if you are going to ever sell syrup, most states require SS.
The best part about getting a 2x4 or even a 2x3 pan with dividers is that as you grow, you can add a flue pan to end up with more potential boiling and either way you can buy or make a reverse osmosis (RO) to be able to process more sap in less time.

[littleTapper]

Gotta echo the sentiment to buy a reputable pan. It's worth it. My 2x4 divided pan is a Smoky Lake and it's simply superb - no other way to put it. I also have a Silver Creek 2x2 (20g) flat pan for when I have smaller amounts of concentrate and for finishing large batches of syrup. Great pan at a great price. No doubt I'll get my lifetime out of these pans and then some (if the son and potential future grandkids keep it going) :)

[Tuckeradams2012]

Since you have been looking at the badgerland pan, look at the video that was produced by smokey lake about those chiina pans. Smokey lake builds the badgerland products. You may get some eye opening after seeing the video.

I have seen the video, and I saw the pan that was damaged, and the ridiculously funny false-bottom "divider" that they have. Completely understand the comparison, but what if it didn't come damaged?

I am wondering in general if there has been research done on thickness of pan (gauge) vs. boil rate of specific normal pan sizes and how much difference we can see in the evaporation. All of the "major" manufacturers seem to vary from 18-22.

With the type of producing I plan on doing (mostly weekends) and not really able to expand beyond 60 taps without asking the neighbor to tap his trees, the good news is the operation won't need constant expansion. Nothing like going full bore quickly right? Do weekend boilers prefer batch processing because the sweet can't hold that long? With a 2x4 and 54 taps currently I am curious how much sap will collect over the week (w/mostly 3/16 tubing), and how long it will take to boil down. I think with relative certainty I won't make more than 20 gallons off 54 taps, so I don't mind drawing off light and finishing off (with my experience level) on my turkey fryer burner to make sure it is perfect.

[Ross]

Based on my records you will have about 50 to 150 gallons per week with 50 taps.

[maple flats]

If your 3/16 has good drop below the lowest tap, you could get much more than the 150 gal., maybe as much as 3-400 if the weather is optimum for sap flow.

[BAP]

I see you are in Maine. Check out WF Mason http://www.wfmasonwelding.com/home.html or Northwoods Stainless https://www.northwoodsstainless.com/services/maple-syrup-equipment/
Both make great equipment and might be able to help you out with a good solution that will last you a long time.

[western mainer]

I would look at the used pans from Bascom there may be one you can use. https://www.bascommaple.com/category/used_evaporator_pans/

[DrTimPerkins]

If you purchase used soldered pans anywhere, check to ensure that they are of lead-free construction. Lead-check swabs are available at most hardware stores. Welded pans shouldn't be a problem.

[heus]

Say no to Chinese junk maple equipment.

[chickenplucker]

If your just getting started, a pan is a pan. The ebay ones likely will be just fine, I boil on a 55 gallon drum that had rusty holes in it when I converted it to begin with and use a 2x2 flat pan that was a $70 craigslist special. Its bottoms not even, its way to deep, the barrel arch is not square, and every year I rivet more patches on rust holes to hold it together, but at the end of the day it still makes syrup.
Just make sure though that as was said before there's no lead or other contaminants in whatever pan you decide on.

But, as the others have said, if you avoid those cheap pans and go with something from an actual maple shop it will make you happier as you boil on it and will provide a better overall experience. ie, cursing that the bottom is half an inch lower than the edges messing your boil up.
And in the long run it likely will save you money as its one future upgrade you will be avoiding.
Or if you decide to sell it it will hold a higher resale value.


Regarding flat pans, you can finish on them but you have to really really keep an eye on it as you can easily under/over do it on syrup density, and over time the level rises to the point its harder to keep a good boil, and at the end you have to dump the whole pan which is not ideal/safe/nor controlled as if your doing draws. Unless you end up with a drain on it, which could lead to burning if your draining over heat as the level in the pan drops.

Regarding time and what to expect, this varies a ton with trees, the weather, etc. First year I'd gather maybe 30 gallons off 12 taps in a week. On the 2x2 starting around 2PM or 1PM things would wrap up at 3 to 4AM Sat/Sun after tending fire all day out in the driveway.
Few years down the road, only taping my largest 14 maples now which are big trees. They can easily on a good day fill the 45 gallons my quad can carry, and at the end of the week the 275 gallon holding tank is full. This lead to building a small osmosis machine to run while I'm off doing other things to half the amount of sap to boil, and adding a harbor freight blower to the barrel arch. With the above, the little evaporator now manages to finish things up in about 2/3rds time while collecting more sap and making more syrup.

I will say though after about 4 years of the above, I'm just ready to get my sugarhouse finished and move to an actual 2x4 divided pan with less stress and hassle of dealing with osmosis and freezing in the driveway on long boils. There are many different ways to have fun in the hobby, but fun is the key word unless your trying to produce as a business. My advice would be to not stress on keeping up with taps if you over gather, do what you can with what you have/get, and just enjoy it. If you feel your done boiling for the day and sap is still left over just call it a night and wrap up what you have vs burning your self out.

[Tuckeradams2012]

If you purchase used soldered pans anywhere, check to ensure that they are of lead-free construction. Lead-check swabs are available at most hardware stores. Welded pans shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for the tip DrTimPerkins!

[Tuckeradams2012]

Great advice ChickenPlucker. Which blower did you get at Harbor Freight? I think that might be a good addition to the oil drum rig.

[chickenplucker]

Its the Central Machinery 3 speed floor blower. Attached it by duct taping a cardboard reducer from the blower to a pipe which ran into the barrel bung. Was a huge improvement, much faster starts from cold to boiling and greater fire control.

[For_the_kids]

I agree with everything that everyone has said regarding american made pans, however I'm in the same boat as the original poster and last year I went with a 2x4 ebay pan because I had spent real money on an amish pan that I returned after it leaked in 5 spots and was warped so bad that one corner sat off the floor by 1". In short time for season I ordered an ebay pan, from china. It arrived in perfect condition and came with a take off valve and thermometer. I paid far less for the pan and was quite happy. Really the only negative I have about it is that the top edge is rolled in and not out. I'm sure this is becasue it saves them space when shipping, but it does cause some steam to condense under the lip and roll back into the pan. Just my 2 cents.

[DrTimPerkins]

...the only negative I have about it is that the top edge is rolled in and not out.

Food equipment manufacturing standards typically require the edges be turned out and fully cleanable and drainable OR be turned in and fully welded closed.

This is ONE reason why U.S.A./Canadian/European Union equipment costs more. They adhere to hygienic food equipment manufacturing standards.

https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/magazine-archive1/december-2012january-2013/food-equipment-hygienic-design-an-important-element-of-a-food-safety-program/

[ir3333]

not mentioned but the pan thickness is extremely important.I have used 24 and 26 gauge pans
and an inch of sap will boil almost immediately just on coals.16 or 18 gauge pans would never
boil at all on coals. Never go thicker than 22 gauge.

[Sugar Bear]

Food equipment manufacturing standards typically require the edges be turned out and fully cleanable and drainable OR be turned in and fully welded closed.

This is ONE reason why U.S.A./Canadian/European Union equipment costs more. They adhere to hygienic food equipment manufacturing standards.

https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/magazine-archive1/december-2012january-2013/food-equipment-hygienic-design-an-important-element-of-a-food-safety-program/

Good Doctor

Would the fact that we are reducing water to sugar ( a strong encourager of food preservation) in this application and not say something like heating milk to 109 degrees to feed our babies make this point closer to the side of meaningless rather then meaningful given our situation ?

Also can you swab test a new pan for lead? Or is it just effective on a old pan that is leaching out?

[Sugar Bear]

Say no to Chinese junk maple equipment.

Back in the day ( say the 70's ) The expression was ... " Say no to Japanese Junk"

I guess if we had followed the rules ... ya would be without your Kowasaki.

And I guess I never would have had my 2002 Subaru Outback that gave me 409 thousand wonderful MILES many of which were spent hauling 1000 pound logs around. ( No the transmission never did fail ) Just could not hold compression in cyl 3.

And of course the new used 2002 Outback I bought back in 2016 with 130K on it that now has 240 only 4 years later, and I have pretty much been able to do all the repair work on myself, even though I am a Bonafide Idiot.

Then there is all the money I saved and invested in Microsoft, from not buying a American or Canadian ( I don't think they make cars ) or crack me up European car, which now allows me, by the way, to go buy whatever sugar shack I wanted if I really felt like it or wanted it.

The main reason Asian products are cheaper then ours American/Canadian/European is because we all want more money for what we do.

Make no mistake about that.

So I know this all sounds off topic but the sole purpose of it is to keep this thread on topic.

[heus]

Sorry, I stick to my original statement. Say no to Chinese junk maple equipment. The Japanese situation and the Chinese cannot even be compared. The Japanese have turned out top notch products with great attention to detail for decades. The Chinese not so much. Are their products better than 10-20 years ago, I guess. Still wouldn't trust their pans. CDL went to selling Chinese-made sap sak holders a few years back, and they were absolute junk, with spot welds breaking easily.
By the way, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Japanese made pan (if they made pans which they dont).

[Sugar Bear]

Sorry, I stick to my original statement. Say no to Chinese junk maple equipment. The Japanese situation and the Chinese cannot even be compared. The Japanese have turned out top notch products with great attention to detail for decades. The Chinese not so much. Are their products better than 10-20 years ago, I guess. Still wouldn't trust their pans. CDL went to selling Chinese-made sap sak holders a few years back, and they were absolute junk, with spot welds breaking easily.
By the way, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Japanese made pan (if they made pans which they don't).

It is critical for you and all who read the following statements to learn something from them if you are not already aware of them. This is not intended to be an insult to those who do or do not.

1) Free markets prevent price gouging.

2) Some cheaper Chinese knock offs do not work so well. They may have lead in them. ( Although most of the cookware that most of use come from China )

3) Some do work well and do not have lead in them.

4) The purpose of this thread is to determine if this one does or does not and or has any other pitfalls. Like a thermometer that is set to high. Or difficult to clean because of its design.

5) If it were not for free WORLD markets in the Auto industry a American car would cost a lot more then it does today. And a Volkswagen would cost twice as much as it does and blow enough vile emissions out the back of it to kill every maple tree from Underhill on down. So yes Japan is comparable to China, Certainly on an economic impact basis. Perhaps not on a ethics basis or overall quality of product basis.

Once again make no mistake about what I am saying. It does not tell it like I want it to be or like someone else wants it to be ... it tells it like it is.

And lets keep to topic and that is ... do we have something that works well? If a government or institution won't hold or require a product to standards then the people have the option to do it themselves. And at least on this website it SEEMS we do.

Although the statement "Say no to Chinese Crap" makes it seem otherwise.

If you would like I am willing to share private messages about this item I have received.

Rob

[johnallin]

Lots of challenges from you, with no back-up.
I’ll bet Dr. Tm and Hues have spilled more syrup than you’ve made with your 40 taps.
This is a great “website” and many have gained knowledge from shared knowledge.
Lighten up and relax.

[BAP]

It is critical for you and all who read the following statements to learn something from them if you are not already aware of them. This is not intended to be an insult to those who do or do not.

1) Free markets prevent price gouging.

2) Some cheaper Chinese knock offs do not work so well. They may have lead in them. ( Although most of the cookware that most of use come from China )

3) Some do work well and do not have lead in them.

4) The purpose of this thread is to determine if this one does or does not and or has any other pitfalls. Like a thermometer that is set to high. Or difficult to clean because of its design.

5) If it were not for free WORLD markets in the Auto industry a American car would cost a lot more then it does today. And a Volkswagen would cost twice as much as it does and blow enough vile emissions out the back of it to kill every maple tree from Underhill on down. So yes Japan is comparable to China, Certainly on an economic impact basis. Perhaps not on a ethics basis or overall quality of product basis.

Once again make no mistake about what I am saying. It does not tell it like I want it to be or like someone else wants it to be ... it tells it like it is.

And lets keep to topic and that is ... do we have something that works well? If a government or institution won't hold or require a product to standards then the people have the option to do it themselves. And at least on this website it SEEMS we do.

Although the statement "Say no to Chinese Crap" makes it seem otherwise.

If you would like I am willing to share private messages about this item I have received.

Rob
If you are so dead set on getting the Chinese crappy pan, then why don’t you just get it and stop attacking the advice given by many well experienced sugar makers replying to your question. You asked for advice, people gave it, and now because it wasn’t the answer you wanted, you are attacking the advice they gave you. Take all that money you made in Microsoft and buy a good evaporator like a Mason, Next Generation, Smokey Lake, CDL, Lappiere, Leader and so on.

[DrTimPerkins]

Would the fact that we are reducing water to sugar ( a strong encourager of food preservation) in this application and not say something like heating milk to 109 degrees to feed our babies make this point closer to the side of meaningless rather then meaningful given our situation ?

Makes no difference. Food hygiene standards are essentially the same. Whether it is milk collecting at an uncleanable point or sap/syrup collecting in the same place is immaterial. In either case you can get material collecting at that point that will spoil and not be able to be cleaned out and will attract insects and vermin.

Try explaining your point of it being meaningless to an FDA inspector. I don't imagine it would get you very far, but that type of reasoning will likely make them start looking at your operation a lot more closely.


Also can you swab test a new pan for lead? Or is it just effective on a old pan that is leaching out?

Sure, you can use a Lead swab test for an old pan or a new pan. Typically it is only the solder or the coatings that are an issue with lead. SS pans shouldn't have lead in the actual pan material.

In total, I don't care whether somebody buys a pan from the U.S.A., Canada, China...wherever (although I have my personal preference). I'm sure you could find a cheap pan made by someone in any of those places. It is more about whether or not it adheres to standard acceptable food manufacturing equipment practices that is more important.

[Sugar Bear]

Sure, you can use a Lead swab test for an old pan or a new pan. Typically it is only the solder or the coatings that are an issue with lead. SS pans shouldn't have lead in the actual pan material.

.

When you say "coatings" are you referring to coatings on/over the solder ( if it can have a coating ) or coatings over the stainless steel ( if it can have a coating ) or both.

[DrTimPerkins]

Galvanized, English Tin, or Ternplate can contain lead. Not typical these days. SS is not coated in evaporators. Solder cannot be coated unfortunately, except by niter.

[Sugar Bear]

I guess what I am really asking is, is a "swab" test done on a stainless steel pan that shows no positive results for lead a guarantee that the pan is lead free and presents no health risk for lead exposure?

[buckeye gold]

I have watched this thread and being totally honest I have said in mind several times, "OMG ain't this over yet"! It has become a pissing match and no one wants piss in their syrup making. I have noticed the OP has stopped posting, they got their advice hopefully made a decision. It's time to stop! If there is still valuable information to share that will help readers make informed choices then post it, but that should only be verified fact not opinion or conjecture. My input is take the facts and make your own decision, who or what risk you take is each person's choice. Here is what my experience has taught me, if something is cheaper it's probably because corners were cut or materials are substandard. The old adage "you get what you paid for" is mostly true. NO further discussion is necessary, enough facts have been given. If cheaper is more important than quality and safety then buy cheaper, just understand consumers are subject to your decision, if people other than you are consuming the product. The Bible has a verse that says, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"....I will paraphrase that with this, Choose quality or choose cheap, but "As for me and my shack, we will chose quality and safety"!

[DrTimPerkins]

I guess what I am really asking is, is a "swab" test done on a stainless steel pan that shows no positive results for lead a guarantee that the pan is lead free and presents no health risk for lead exposure?

A negative swab test would be an indicator that the lead level were low enough to be undetected. It is unlikely that there would be any lead in the SS pans themselves anyhow, so not sure why anyone would do a swab test. The only place you might find lead in a SS pan would be in the solder if the pans were soldered and not welded.

I'm not sure how this issue turned to lead. I thought we were discussing was food manufacturing hygiene standards.

[Sugar Bear]

If there is still valuable information to share that will help readers make informed choices then post it, but that should only be verified fact not opinion or conjecture. My input is take the facts and make your own decision, who or what risk you take is each person's choice. !

Not to bring Jesus into this thread like you have but Amen to the above sentence.

[Sugar Bear]

A negative swab test would be an indicator that the lead level were low enough to be undetected. It is unlikely that there would be any lead in the SS pans themselves anyhow, so not sure why anyone would do a swab test. The only place you might find lead in a SS pan would be in the solder if the pans were soldered and not welded.

I'm not sure how this issue turned to lead. I thought we were discussing was food manufacturing hygiene standards.

We are discussing both.

Hygiene standards and how the design of the EBAY pan may violate them with a turned in lip.

and

Lead and testing for it in pans.

I guess with the lead my question is, Does it make sense to swab test a new flat pan you buy from any source, China, USA, Canada, wherever? And how effective is the test?

[Tuckeradams2012]

I have watched this thread and being totally honest I have said in mind several times, "OMG ain't this over yet"! It has become a pissing match and no one wants piss in their syrup making. I have noticed the OP has stopped posting, they got their advice hopefully made a decision. It's time to stop! If there is still valuable information to share that will help readers make informed choices then post it, but that should only be verified fact not opinion or conjecture. My input is take the facts and make your own decision, who or what risk you take is each person's choice. Here is what my experience has taught me, if something is cheaper it's probably because corners were cut or materials are substandard. The old adage "you get what you paid for" is mostly true. NO further discussion is necessary, enough facts have been given. If cheaper is more important than quality and safety then buy cheaper, just understand consumers are subject to your decision, if people other than you are consuming the product. The Bible has a verse that says, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"....I will paraphrase that with this, Choose quality or choose cheap, but "As for me and my shack, we will chose quality and safety"!

Still here eating popcorn buckeye! I think there has been some valuable information towards the end of this thread where DrTim talks about how the pan is made and how that relates to hygiene standards of this particular pan as well as talking about lead solder that may be introduced by a foreign manufacturer.

The thread is only slightly moot for me though, the pans skyrocketed in price a few weeks ago, from $75 to $332 on ebay. I haven't pulled the trigger quite yet on another but still perusing. Here's to hoping that they may possibly come down in price again so that I can once again agonize over the decision.

I do love eating me some popcorn though! (Maple syrup drizzle am I right?!?!)

[phil-t]

I have watched this thread and being totally honest I have said in mind several times, "OMG ain't this over yet"!

My only question here, and I'm interested in the thread, - if you are not interested, why are you watching/reading? FYI - My leader Half-Pint pan (welded) has turned in flange and lip on the top edge, all the way around. Guess I better give up sugaring?

[Sugar Bear]

My only question here, and I'm interested in the thread, - if you are not interested, why are you watching/reading? FYI - My leader Half-Pint pan (welded) has turned in flange and lip on the top edge, all the way around. Guess I better give up sugaring?

Yup, a lot of interesting things said on this thread. Informative to the original question with regards to post # 1 and a lot of baseless attacks and a lot of counterattacks to those baseless attacks. Some implied but not stated stuff as well ( both accurate and misleading ).

I can understand why people want to be "protectionists". It is a natural side effect of human behavior. Just be able to back it up with facts if your on this thread. And no, "This Chinese thing was a piece of crap and so is that one" DOES NOT CUT IT. If that were the case "Harbor Freight" never would have been mentioned in this thread. And Harbor Freight would be closing all the stores they have recently opened in western New Hampshire so that all the people in Vermont who do not have their heads stuck in the wrong part of their anatomy could come their as well. Fortunately that would be most of the people in Vermont. Can we all accept the fact that if China had a Santa then Harbor Freight would be his sled?

I compete with the Chinese, I make side tables out of figured wood, Curly Maple and Birdseye Maple being some of that wood. A guy just paid $800 for a little tiny table of mine the other day. Delivered it to him out on Long Island on Monday. He was a Union Carpenter living in a very modest home. I thought to myself now why did he not just go out and buy one of those nice little cheap tables from China for say $150 or less. I guess if he had done that I would have said to myself "Ha he went out and bought the cheap Chinese piece of crap"

But I recommend that people buy Chinese tables, they just make mine more extraordinary. Nobody needs to protect my tables. If the Chinese can knock off my exact tables so be it. Good luck to them. All Union Carpenters will have a version of my tables.

I think I am going to stick with my four steam pans for another season ( even though they were made in China ). Its a lot of scooping, but I've got some good books to read this winter about the politics behind what people say, why they say it and how they say it. Should make for good reading in the warm shack at night. Read a page ... Scoop .... More wood ... Watch the steam go out into the Darkness of the night .... Ditto. Sure beats my old career job of coding software that kept track of what people bought at the grocery store. That would sometimes make my brain boil at 419 let alone 219.

My mother was a German American from Missouri, "The Show Me State" . My father was from New York, "The no BS state" ( At that time but no longer )

I am a mix of both.

[buckeye gold]

I like what you said sugarbear and there is some very good info on this thread. I never meant to imply there wasn't and my angst was mostly over what you call
"a lot of baseless attacks and a lot of counterattacks to those baseless attacks. Some implied but not stated stuff as well ( both accurate and misleading )." I have watched because I am interested in factual and useful information. I guess I need to work on my expression skills.

I wasn't going to reply, but your post struck a cord with me and I wanted to give you a "well stated".

It's everyone's personal choice in the end.