Ro sizing

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I'm looking at putting a ro in my pump house to recirculate in order to accomplish two things:
1. Not have to upgrade my 2800 gallon sap tank (Space is an issue)
2. My poor old dump truck is tired after hauling 62000 gallons of sap and I want to truck less.
Once completed this woods will have 5000-6000 taps.
My question is what size RO should I buy and what are the benefits of that capacity? Thank in advance.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Figure 500 gallons per hour for each 8" membrane to remove roughly 75 percent of the water. A normal run then could be 12 hours of processing time for one, 6 for two.

[maple flats]

One aspect to keep in mind is that concentrate spoils faster. You may want refrigeration to protect the concentrate quality. You would not want to concentrate that much into a single batch and hold it for very long at all. Once concentrated it either needs to be cooled or boiled soon after or you lose sugar to concentrated microbes.
Proctor concentrates then cools to just short of slush forming and holds it for 2 -3 days. Without refrigeration an hour or 2 might be about the max. if the outside temp is not close to freezing and the concentrate can get cooled that way.

[DrTimPerkins]

Along with what others have said, note that recirculating will warm the sap/concentrate. The more you recirculate, the warmer it'll get. That will not improve sap quality.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

Thanks Dave and Brian. I have an insulated distillery tank which I think will help. But yes that was part of my plan. Right now I never get my tanks cleaned properly because I am overwhelming my buyers tank and ro. I'm hoping to bring 2 loads a day instead of 5 or 6. Brian you have pump stations correct? Do you concentrate before you truck?

[bill m]

I know someone who was trucking concentrate and they stopped. All it ever made was dark and very dark syrup. What do you think your daily routine would look like? Do you have remote monitoring for your tank so you will know when to go start the RO? Are you going to start the RO and wait for it to concentrate or leave and come back when you think it is done? Truck your concentrate then go back to take care of the RO? Lots to think about and plan how your time is spent.

[ddociam]

This is a good topic.
I lost a big batch last year because it was warm and I could not get to it to boil.

This year I tried to gather all available sap. RO it for 2-4 hours and boil it. It was usually to much to do in a day but we were well on our way by 8 o’clock at night. So the next day we could finish boil clean everything and start over while the RO was going. Cleaning between batches was a game changer. As well as having plenty of RO capacity. Most of my syrup was right at the amber to dark range. Wonderful stuff.


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[TapTapTap]

[I have an insulated distillery tank which I think will help. [/QUOTE]

Insulated tank won't help since the heat from pumping and ROing will introduce heat into the concentrate - unless you refrigerate like Proctor.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Brian you have pump stations correct? Do you concentrate before you truck?[/QUOTE]

No trucking, we have 3 releasers that pump to a tank that feeds the RO. The RO processes about 1,000 gallons per hour which is recirulated until we get 12 percent or so and then boiled.

[Bucket Head]

Regardless if you RO at the woods and haul it or RO at the sugarhouse, if it's going to have to set for a while it needs to be refrigerated. Keeping the concentrate cold is key. And if you RO at the woods, you would need to get the concentrate home pretty quickly and keep it in another insulated tank, and then boil it pretty soon. Unless that one is refrigerated also.

Four years ago I got a 500 gal. Mueller bulk tank operational. Hands down, behind the RO itself, it is the best sugaring tool I own. It allows me to keep concentrate for days, with no degrading that I can detect, and boil when I have either enough sap and/or enough time. And I do not make only dark syrup with the concentrate. I have made all different grades over the years with the concentrate from it. It has been a game changer for my operation. No more worries about losing sap or lost concentrate.

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

Keeping the concentrate cold is key.... Four years ago I got a 500 gal. Mueller bulk tank operational. Hands down, behind the RO itself, it is the best sugaring tool I own..... It has been a game changer for my operation.

Absolutely agree Steve. Having a refrigerated bulk tank essentially decouples the RO process from the evaporation process. You can let the RO run when the sap comes in, and then boil another time (assuming your tank is large enough). It is especially useful for those smallish runs that happen early and late (and sometimes in the middle) of the season. Normally if you RO you'd have to boil, but it might be for only 30-60 min and then shut down. With the bulk tank...you just save it until you've got enough to boil for 4-5 hrs. Where this really saves is on clean-up time. We never boil in the evenings or on weekends any more.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

This is really helpful guys thanks for the input.

[Shaun]

Keep in mind the power requirements. A 6000 tap Vac pump and 1200 RO can add up if your house or other stuff are on the same service.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

We never boil in the evenings or on weekends any more.[/QUOTE]

That takes all the sport right out of it...........

:)

[Bucket Head]

"Takes the sport right out of it"- LOL!
In all actuality, I'm at the other end of the spectrum from Dr. Tim and the University. I work full time, so still does my father- so we had (and still have) all we could do after getting home to get our sap collected and ROed. There was no time left for boiling too. We would hold sap, and then concentrate, for too long back in the day, and then would end up dumping some when it didn't keep. That wasn't just counterproductive- it was heartbreaking to us. That wasn't what we trying to do!
The bulk tank allows us to collect and process all week and then boil on the weekends when we have the time. Yes, we add different "qualities" (depending on temperature and the season) of sap together all week and it probably changes the grade a little. But we make all the grades all season long, lighter to darker, just like everyone else.
My father and I couldn't do syrup like we are doing now without that tank.