Whats the best 5/16 spile

[wilson maple]

I was wondering what the best 5/16 spile to use? I've been using the clear spouts from leader and I've been noticing that they have been splitting on the ends or cracking. They have also been beaking off when I pull them out at the end of the year.

[Shaun]

The CDL signature (smart spout) seem to work well for me with a 5/16 tapping bit. The angle is a little bit of a pain. They seem to seal well, not heave and do not break when pulling. I broke a handful of CV2's this year pulling, My wife didn't break any... Definitely need to be careful and pull straight on the CV2. I've never broken a Smart spout.
I usually use a Smart spout on new drops and CV2's on older drops.

[motowbrowne]

I liked the CDL signatures that I ran this year. Agreed on the angle not being great, but they sealed nicely.

I will say though that I used H2O innovations semi rigid as my drop lines, and during a decent freeze, several would pop off the spouts. Mentioned it on facebook. A couple guys were having the same issue. I'd be sure to use CDL tubing if I wanted to use their spouts.

[Russell Lampron]

I been using the CV2's since they came out and have never had any of them crack or break. How hard are you driving them in?

[DrTimPerkins]

We also use mostly CV2s. One of the crew used to break some each year. The others had no problem. It was the shape of the hammer face and the weight of it, plus the fact that he liked to tap way over his head that I think was causing the problem.

[WestfordSugarworks]

We use CV2s. This is our third season using them and put in over 10k per year. They are proven to yield higher than other spouts, that’s why we use them, but they are more brittle than others we used before. Perhaps we are driving them into the tree too hard, but more than a few each day will break off at the end when we pull. We try to pull with the Spout puller directly under the spout pointing straight up. Even then they sometimes break, so we carry drills to drill out the broken piece left in tree. I believe some of these spouts actually crack when we drive them in, cause it seems no matter how we pull some of them will break. Anyway, they are certainly weaker than other spouts I’ve used , tho one year we used the clear leader 90s and those were similarly brittle (they’re essentially the same spout without the check valve). Wish quality control was better but they bring us in more sap and are worth it.

[maple flats]

I've used CV and then CV2 from the start. Then 3 yrs ago I tried some Zap Bac spouts. I've now decided to use CV2, but seasonal clear on new drops, then CV2 on 2nd and third yr drops. I change after 3 yrs on all drops.

[DrTimPerkins]

I change after 3 yrs on all drops.

Dave...do you change all your drops in one year or do it on a 3-year rotation? I'd suggest doing the rotation to spread out the risk a bit.

[maple flats]

I change all every 3 years. Now that I reduced my number of taps to between 400-500 and will not be growing larger again, I like changing all at the same time. Back when I had 2 leases plus my own at the sugarhouse I changed on location every year. I hear what you say about spreading it out, but I don't have a good system to know which are on which schedule.
So in year 1, new drops and clear seasonal taps, in year 2 and 3 new CV2 and new tees as well as any other fittings if in the 3/16 laterals. @021 is scheduled to be all new drops.

[tcross]

how much of a benefit do you get form changing the drops every 3-5 years if yo are using cv's? i thought i read that it isn't a big issue if using cv's, to extend drop replacement? i use cv's and on occasion they'll break when taking them out... but that's more my issue of not lining up correctly when pulling the spout? This year i used cv's on one section with 6-7 year old drops and i feel that section under preformed quite considerably! so, i'll change them next year... but curious if that was my isssue... which i assume it was?

[DrTimPerkins]

how much of a benefit do you get form changing the drops every 3-5 years if yo are using cv's?

Probably not a lot. Because we are using CVs we rarely change our droplines these days unless the tubing or fittings start to fail or we are doing an experiment looking at drop replacement.

[Jeff E]

I have used the original CV, on a stubby spout. the first generation had some issues with manufacturing that had plugged-i.e. no sap. Enough of them had issues that I am guessing 10% of my trees didn't get any sap out.
I was so frustrated with that I switched to the 5/16 adaptor w/out the Check Valve. I have been using them ever since.
I tried the clear adaptor, and found them to bind really tight to the stubby spout, that I damaged a bunch of the stubbys trying to pull them apart.

So I'm just using the adaptor. I would like to know if the CV2 has had any issues with plugging up, or the ball not sealing well. In other words, is it worth the premium price.

[maple flats]

Maybe if Dr Tim and his team are not changing their drops every 3 years, I might stay with CV2's and go out to 5 year drop changes. That will save some time and $ too.

[DrTimPerkins]

We don't change drops unless the tubing or fittings are either breaking down physically, getting too short (from cutting off spouts each year), or we have to do it as a "control" for some experiment. We have some dropline and lateral line that is 11-12 yrs old or more. Most is in the 5-7 range. We use CV2 spouts in most places. Our production averages 0.6 gal/tap and tends not to vary much from year-to-year (it ranges from about 0.5-0.7 gal/tap...depending more on vacuum than anything else). Is it worth the extra money? Ten years of research at UVM and Cornell show it is. While a new drop will almost always produce the best results in terms of sap yield (for the first year), a CV generally produces the highest net profit over time.

[Jeff E]

A follow up question. Most years I stop making syrup because of quality issues-sap getting buddy, or sugar drops so much that it isn't worth the effort.
Do you ever have sugar percent recover after a steady drop, say from a significant freeze?
for example, my woods peaked out this year at 2.8%, then slowly dropped. when I quit I was at 1.3.

[maple flats]

I have seen some recovery, but minor with 2-3 night in a row of freeze thaw cycles. I think a gain of .2 or .3 is typically about the best in late season, however in the early season I've gained more with the right conditions.

[DrTimPerkins]

Do you ever have sugar percent recover after a steady drop, say from a significant freeze?

It depends upon the time of the season and on the season.

Typically sugar starts off a bit low, then tends to rise until about 1/3-1/2 way through the season. After that the trend is downward, with minor increases at some points with freezes (much less than in early season if all all).

The attached figure shows the 2019 and 2020 seasons at UVM PMRC in Underhill. In general the patterns are similar. 2019 had higher overall sugar (avg of 2.14 Brix) than 2020 (average of 1.81 Brix). Bars show the individual daily values. The lines show the 3-day running trendline. The dashed line shows our long-term average sap sugar content, which has actually trended downward a little over the past 15 yrs due to (we believe) two factors: adding in a substantial number of red maples and beginning to tap smaller tree (down to 9" dbh with 5/16" spouts) when formerly we only tapped 12" and up (with 7/16" spouts).

21441

[maple flats]

The 2020 chart looks quite similar to what I got, except my % were lower. On my first 2 days I got 1.5, 1.6% then a freeze thaw and the next day was 1.8, followed by 1.5, 1.3, 1.2 (several days) then 3 freeze thaws in a row, then 1.5, 1.3, 1.1. I finally quit at .9% after a few days of 1.1.
In a good year I usually average for the season 2% +/- .1%.
My taps are about 50/50, sugars and reds. Back when I was all sugars I got 2.2-2.3% for season averages. Now I only tap around my sugarhouse and I have my sugars all tapped, but can likely add around 100 more reds. I only got to 400 this season, before Covid 19 I had planned about 50 more, but then I sent my help away and I just processed what was already tapped.

[maple flats]

As for the taps, I used about 300 CV2 and 100 Zap Bac this season. I plan to go back to all CVs except on first year drops, which will get seasonal taps. I had no taps break as I installed or removed them this year. I use a 7" pair of lineman's pliers to tap them in (using the flat side jaw) and I use a customized Big Lots el cheapo Wonder Bar look alike to remove then. Back a few years I bought 4 such bars (me and 3 helpers) for $1.88 each. I then used my dremmel tool with 1/2" drum sander rounds to cut a notch about 1/2" into the V on the short end of the bar, I still use then , they work well.

[Jeff E]

thanks for the feedback on sugar%.
My first sap was 1.4%, and used to flush lines, run the RO for a cleaning cycle. Then the next few days as it climbed to its peak, then the long slow decent.
I think I bailed to early when I quit at 1.4. You guys making syrup with 70 to 1 ratios make me look lazy!
I find that as the sugar drops, the niter goes up ( a lot more sap running through the evaporator) and the time doing pan cleaning takes a toll on my motivation as well.

So back to the Thread, Next year 5/16th Check Valve adaptors for the stubbys it is. Cant wait!!!!

[Pdiamond]

I have a question for you fine gentlemen, do you all use the stubbies to place the CV's into when you tap? Can you just place the CV into the tree without the stubby?

[DrTimPerkins]

... do you all use the stubbies to place the CV's into when you tap? Can you just place the CV into the tree without the stubby?

Two choices (for plastic spouts in general).

1. Use a one-piece spout where the spout is put in the tree and connected to the tubing. After the season is done it is pulled from the taphole, cut off and a new spout put on (before the next season). The CV2 (one-piece spout) applies in this situation.

2. Drill a taphole, put the spout adapter in the tree and tap it in. Connect a stubby to the tubing (if not already there). Mate the stubby to the spout adapter and tap it in lightly or twist it in securely. The original CV spout adapter (black) or newer style (clear-poly with ball in tip) CV spout adapter works this way.