Reviews and critique for homemade ro

[cjf12]

I have pieced together the RO. No bells and whistles to it. I would love to hear back some thoughts and tips to improve it or just glaring errors you may see.
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I still want to add a flowmeter to recirc and change out 1hp pump to 2hp. Just curious on everyone's honest thoughts.

[jrgagne99]

Is that PVC rated for high pressure? 250-ish psi?

[cjf12]

Is that PVC rated for high pressure? 250-ish psi?

http://www.heritageplastics.com/pvc-water-plumbing-pipe-east/pvc-schedule-40-pressure-dwv-pipe/

1/2 is up to 600 psi
3/4 is up to 480 psi
Fittings are suppose to share rating if properly welded.

To be honest that's my biggest fear. I would like to add a low psi switch before I glue it all up.

[mol1jb]

What size procon do you have?

[cjf12]

330 with a 1hp. Wouldn't mind getting a 2hp to replace it. It did the job with 1 membrane but with 3???

[bmbmkr]

I ran 2 4x40's on a PC 330 on 1 1/2 HP the last 2 years. I'm lookin for a 2 1/2 or 3 hp 220V and upgrading to 660 Procon. I just got 2 new vessels in this morning, $79 & free shipping on Amazon right now, 3/4" feed ports and they come with the hangers.

When I upgraded from the single post and gas motor, I ordered all 3/4" & 1/2" stainless, that chinese stuff sucks, it leaked like a sieve and I swapped out about half of it with Schedule 80 PVC- elbows & tees.

You don't need a flow meter on your recirc line, just one for permeate and one for concentrate. I thought about putting on on the recirc circuit, but guys on here talked me out of it.

Keep up the good work!!

[cjf12]

I ran 2 4x40's on a PC 330 on 1 1/2 HP the last 2 years. I'm lookin for a 2 1/2 or 3 hp 220V and upgrading to 660 Procon. I just got 2 new vessels in this morning, $79 & free shipping on Amazon right now, 3/4" feed ports and they come with the hangers.

When I upgraded from the single post and gas motor, I ordered all 3/4" & 1/2" stainless, that chinese stuff sucks, it leaked like a sieve and I swapped out about half of it with Schedule 80 PVC- elbows & tees.

You don't need a flow meter on your recirc line, just one for permeate and one for concentrate. I thought about putting on on the recirc circuit, but guys on here talked me out of it.

Keep up the good work!!

Mind giving your reasons for sch 80 vs 40? And did your 330 not do the job or are you looking for more flow to maintain membranes longer?

[Mead Maple]

Cj, do you have a feed pump running to your PC or do you have enough head pressure?


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[cjf12]

I have a 1hp dairy pump for a feed.

[Mead Maple]

Good deal. Did you end up taking it for a maiden voyage? I like the the PVC idea but glad to see you added the coupling for breaking the system down. Definitely curious to see how you end up with for a concentrate % on your first pass


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[cjf12]

No voyage yet. Still need to get 2 membranes. May do a little fall tapping to test it.

[bmbmkr]

Mind giving your reasons for sch 80 vs 40? And did your 330 not do the job or are you looking for more flow to maintain membranes longer?

At the time I didn't know the pressure specs for 40 vs 80, and it looked better standing in the store lookin at the 2 side by side. The 330 does great on 2 4x40's, I'm goin to run 4 4x40's with the 660.

[Mead Maple]

At the time I didn't know the pressure specs for 40 vs 80, and it looked better standing in the store lookin at the 2 side by side. The 330 does great on 2 4x40's, I'm goin to run 4 4x40's with the 660.

This is ideally what Id like to put together using the 660.

CJ, it looks like you ran these in series from what I see in the picture. Correct me if Im wrong, can only hold my head sideways for so long before my phone turns the screen. If you didnt, can you let us know why you plumbed the way you did? (Just for reference, not questioning)


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[cjf12]

From my understanding the 330 will not allow enough flow for parrellel. Series it will work. My biggest concern was that my last membrane may start to foul before the rest. That's why i added the recirc to it. It may still be an issue but not sure how to know if that does happen. I have always batch recirculated before.

[bmbmkr]

From my understanding the 330 will not allow enough flow for parrellel. Series it will work. My biggest concern was that my last membrane may start to foul before the rest. That's why i added the recirc to it. It may still be an issue but not sure how to know if that does happen. I have always batch recirculated before.

The more flow, the less fouling. 330 gph = 5.5 gpm.

If you run 2 in parallel vs series, you split that 5.5 gpm to 2.25 in each membrane.

Dow XLE's specs say 14 gpm max flow. Theoretically you could run 2 membranes on a 660, but at $650 for the pump vs $130 for a 330, I'd venture to guess that's why more people run 330's, not to mention you can run a 330 on a little less horsepower. The Procon pump curve graph shows the 660 at 2.5hp.

When you recirculate, you get a little less flow, but more concentration. If you are in series, or parallel, recirculation won't stop the second membrane from plugging, if anything, recirculation could cause it to foul faster, as your are running sweeter concentrate in to begin with, but that all depends on how high a pressure you're running. I had planned on swapping membranes during the season to prevent this, but with regular rinsing and washing, I haven't found the need to.

I slowly close the needle valve until I get to 275 psi and let it run. When the pressure climbs to 290, I open up the needle valve for a few minutes and let it flush at max flow for a few minutes. I'm usually concentrating 500-900 gallons, and I run it right back into the bulk tank. This isn't as efficient a running into a dedicated concentrate tank, but until I get another stainless tank, it's what I do. Last year I ran concentrate into a separate 330 gallon IBC, but I wasn't comfortable with having that sweet in the plastic tank that long- a couple hours sometimes. I run the first pass with the permeate flow as high as I can get, usually 2.1-2.2 gpm, When I get half the water out, I switch the concentrate line over to the head tank and once I get 20 gallons in it, I open up the recirculation and crank the pressure until I get to .75 gpm concentrate and light the fire. My 2x6 gets 40 gph, so I'm puttin 45 gph in the tank and the first 20 gallon is a safety cushion. I may open up and flush for a few minutes even when putting concentrate in the head tank, I put a little less sweet concentrate in, but it really helps flush the sugar off the membrane. It's worth it in my book. Maybe this year I'll get a 3 way valve plumbed in and send the flush back to the bulk tank when I do this. Bottom line, I'm taking 75-80% of the water out, and with 1.5% sap to begin with it's a HUGE increase in efficiency. Both wood savings and time.



Get on MES- Maple Expert Solutions web page and find their document about establishing a base line. Once you rinse your membranes, when you run them the first time check your concentrate and permeate flow at 150 psi, write this down along with the temp of your sap. This is your baseline. After you run for a while and your membranes begin fouling, as your permeate and concentrate levels begin to drop at the same pressure, this tells you when you need to rinse/wash. And it can also tell you if your rinse/wash was successful.

Since I replied the other day I've found another pump, a Goulds multistage, 18 gpm with 3hp 1 phase motor. I have a few months, so I have time to decide which pump I'm goin to use. It's roughly the same price as a Procon 660 and a new motor and the adapter housing. but with 7 more gpm. If you go back through the the RO threads on here, and if you look at some of the commercially made RO units, several are using multi stage pumps. The multi stage pump also raises the temp of the sap making it pass through the membranes with slightly more efficiency. The multi stage also keeps your wash water warm. I plan on running the 4 membranes in two sets, so 2 in series parallel to the other 2 in series. My goal is to concentrate faster. I don't mind boiling for 4 hours, but some days I have to run the RO for 2-4 hours before I start boiling. With the way the squirrel population has been booming round here. I figure I can use that extra couple a hours in the woods maximizing sap flow.

[Mead Maple]

Wow great read bmb. I appreciate it all that.

I too have found the Goulds multi-stage pumps online. What I cant figure out is how to get the PSI output info. Even visiting their website I cannot find the specs I am looking for. But you are right, several large commercial units have these style pumps have them so I assume they are capable of achieving high PSI (with a price tag). Let me know if you had better luck finding those numbers


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[Mead Maple]

Quick question for folks and sorry to get slightly off topic. Has anyone run the numbers both financially and efficiency wise on rather than going with several small posts (cheaper price individually and probably easier to replace when a mistake is made) or going with an 8 inch unit?


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[cjf12]

I think the biggest thing is growth. Many including myself started with only a few taps and then grew into it. A small 4x40 is what was needed at the time but just doesn't cut it anymore. It's a hobby still and I can't afford 5-8000 for a commercially built unit. 2 extra posts on what I already have is only about $1000. Will it run as well? NO way. But it's more efficient for me to be still married next season vs. having a great commercial ro.

[Mead Maple]

Cj, trust me Im in the same boat. I always joke about next seasons upgrades equaling just under what a divorce would cost haha!

I got a taste of concentrate this season from a local sugar maker and I could never go back to raw sap. I made almost as much in an 8 hour boil as I did the entire year. That was all the proof I needed. So I am on the hunts to build something that will ideally hit 8-12% even if that means two passes. I just want to do it safely and efficiently. I have no reason to go higher than that simply because my rig wont be configured correctly for much higher %


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[gbwaterski]

What PSI are guys running the Gould pumps?

[Mead Maple]

What PSI are guys running the Gould pumps?

I can’t find any specific info online which just seems weird to me. But from what I gather there ate some capable of pushing 500psi


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[bmbmkr]

Wow great read bmb. I appreciate it all that.

I too have found the Goulds multi-stage pumps online. What I cant figure out is how to get the PSI output info. Even visiting their website I cannot find the specs I am looking for. But you are right, several large commercial units have these style pumps have them so I assume they are capable of achieving high PSI (with a price tag). Let me know if you had better luck finding those numbers


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Glad to help out, I'm no expert by any means, but I try really hard to learn a much as possible by both reading and doing.

I blew up my Procon last year the second time I used it. My RO came as a single post with a Honda Gas 5 hp and a piston pump. I put a 1 1/2 hp Leeson and the procon 330, added another vessel and all set right? Well I didn't upgrade the 2 1/2x10" sediment filter. I ran 1200 gallon a sap through it before the element let go and part of it sucked in the pump. I had my hand on the pressure valve, had just finished flushing it, it was back up to about 75 maybe 90 PSI and BAM the second vessel blew the bottom cap off, I was getting showered with concentrate, I got it shut off. I put the lower cap back on, turned it back on and it sounded like gravel in the pump. I went ahead and pumped the last few gallons out of the bulk tank with the feed pump. I was sick to my stomach!! I had just tapped 450 trees and spent another $1k upgrading this RO and it was the 2nd run of the season ( 2 days worth of sap actually). I ordered a new Procon, a new membrane,(turned out when it blew, the permeate tube broke off the bottom), new torque ring for the vessel cap and a 4.5x20 filter housing and 12 filters. Luckily we froze up the next day for about 5 days, so I didn't loose any production. I still need to add HP and LP cut off switches, I don't know if that would have saved it or not, but it' on the list for this year.

I have found the Goulds pump curve graphs several times over the last few years, but haven't had any luck the last few weeks.

If I find em again I'll post a link on here.

[cjf12]

I would love some tips n tricks for adding some pressure switches. Good leads on what kind and best place for putting them? I'm holding off glueing anything till I can get that done.

[Mead Maple]

I did find them (graph charts) on their website but despite what I thought my reading abilities were I cant seem to distinguish what the operating PSI is, I can see GOM head pressures and such. Maybe I just am that illiterate but something like this is not new to me.

Im sure you were passing razor blades when you heard that noise. Stemming off the OPs original post, 4 posts with a larger ore filter and a 660 would probably be about right? This is of course if you went the procon route which Im still undecided until I gather more info on the Gould style pumps


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[cjf12]

I would love some tips n tricks for pressure switches. Any particular brand? Is there a better place to put the in than other places?

[bmbmkr]

There's several post in the RO forum from a few years ago on what switches and where they go and how to adjust them. I'm currently reading electronics for dummies...again, to try to get up to speed on relays and circuits and what not so I can integrate everything into one box, hopefully. I'm using a 110V Wayne SS pump for a feed pump and my Procon motor is wired 220V so one gets plugged in to one outlet, and has it's own on/off switch, and the other gets plugged in another outlet and I wired a switch on and bolted it on the frame. I know the LP switch goes in between feed pump and filter, and the HP switch should be in between the HP pump and the membranes.