CDL 600gph expandable concentrate %

[calvertbrothers]

I have a cdl 600 gph expandable. I am adding another membrane to it this off season just wondering what I can get for max Brix in a single pass? And the flow rate.

[maple flats]

Tell us more, what do you get now and what pressure do you run at? How about re-circulation now?

[fred]

We are getting 14% one pass output 48gph. Neighbor has 2 post getting 21% one pass 150gph

[fred]

tell us more, what do you get now and what pressure do you run at? How about re-circulation now?

450-475 lbs pressure. Completely different than what you run dave

calvert thats starting with 2-2.2% sap

[calvertbrothers]

450-475 lbs pressure. Completely different than what you run dave

calvert thats starting with 2-2.2% sap

My sap is between 1.5 and 2.2. This year it hovered around 1.5% I run my my pressure at 400psi normally

[fred]

my sap is between 1.5 and 2.2. This year it hovered around 1.5% i run my my pressure at 400psi normally

if you increase your pressure you could gain a little. At 1.5% you probably get 9-10% concentrate? Could get to 12%.

With a second tower 17-18% likely.

[calvertbrothers]

Tell us more, what do you get now and what pressure do you run at? How about re-circulation now?
Honestly I recirculate into my tank idk what one pass would be. I run my concentration at 3.5gpm at 400psi until I get 18 brix in the tank then I send it to the head tank. My goal is 16 to 18 percent brix in one pass.

[calvertbrothers]

if you increase your pressure you could gain a little. At 1.5% you probably get 9-10% concentrate? Could get to 12%.

With a second tower 17-18% likely.

Perfect! What would be the flow rate of the concentrate? I’m boil on a 2x6 now but I am jumping to a 4x12 evaporator not this coming up season but the following season. I figure I would need a 3.5gpm for the 4x12 evaporator. And I want to be at 16+%

[mountainvan]

I have a two post cdl and get between 15-20% in one pass, depending on sap sugar%.MES membranes also. I set the concentrate at 1 gpm and the pressure to 400psi. Permeate on 1st post is 7gpm and 2 nd post is 3gpm. I wash most everyday too.

[calvertbrothers]

I have a two post cdl and get between 15-20% in one pass, depending on sap sugar%.MES membranes also. I set the concentrate at 1 gpm and the pressure to 400psi. Permeate on 1st post is 7gpm and 2 nd post is 3gpm. I wash most everyday too.

At 1 gpm the membrane doesn’t plug? How much sap do you get through it before you have to quick rinse?

[mountainvan]

I had it slow down a little when I ran 6,200 gals of sap though it in 12 hrs.The MES membranes are great and I highly recommend them. I did one 15 minute rinse late in the season. Had 3,000 gals of sap some people might have dumped. But made some zero syrup that the hippies love.

[fred]

Perfect! What would be the flow rate of the concentrate? I’m boil on a 2x6 now but I am jumping to a 4x12 evaporator not this coming up season but the following season. I figure I would need a 3.5gpm for the 4x12 evaporator. And I want to be at 16+%

what mountainvan said. crank it down. i even run at .5gpm and crank the pressure to 475. youll have to rinse after 6 hours maybe but with 2 towers youll be done anyways

[Mead Maple]

Calvert not trying to Jack the thread so forgive me, is it possible to get these high of a % with a smaller size RO/pumps/membranes but have the system built to with stand the higher pressures needed to get the %? Like not have the amount of flow (smaller producers like myself) be less because we dont need to process as much quantities but still come out with 12-15% or higher if specd correctly for PSI? Im talking in the 3-500 gallon per session range of raw sap


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[fred]

You have to use bigger pumps and a recirculation pump also. Then change lines. Without them you cant get above 10%. Anything in between will plug the membranes faster.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Fred knows a lot more about ro’s than I do but for your size you’re looking at the same thing I am. After researching, not all hobby or small ro’s are created equal. Lapierre makes small 125 and 250 turbos with the big boy pumps. A CDL 250 hobby RO will pale in comparison but is priced accordingly. I’d look at MES. Unless I find a good used deal in the next year or two that’s probably what I’ll go with.

[Russell Lampron]

Calvert not trying to Jack the thread so forgive me, is it possible to get these high of a % with a smaller size RO/pumps/membranes but have the system built to with stand the higher pressures needed to get the %? Like not have the amount of flow (smaller producers like myself) be less because we dont need to process as much quantities but still come out with 12-15% or higher if specd correctly for PSI? Im talking in the 3-500 gallon per session range of raw sap


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A smaller professional RO like my Lapierre 250 Turbo will do 13% +/- in a single pass. I set the concentrate to .5 gpm and the high pressure 400 psi. It would cost as much or more to build an RO yourself as it would to buy a good used one like mine.

[TapTapTap]

For what it's worth - we run our 2 post cdl 1200 at 430 to 450 psi with a concentrate output of around 2 gpm. The sugar comes up to around 10% in the initial pass. We recirculate to the raw sap tank until output comes up to around 15% then we divert output to the concentrate tank. Our thinking is that running at a more moderate output puts less load on the entire RO (pumps, membranes, etc.), and hopefully the system will run longer and more trouble free. Of course we've got a fairly big RO for 1050 taps so we can.

So in my mind, the question is whether calvertbrothers should push the upgraded RO to the max or use the capacity to run at more moderate output.

[fred]

thats true ken. its a toss up and i dont have that answer whether its better to run more concentrate and less hours or more running hours and faster flow?

but i know the membranes are cheaper than pumps

[Mead Maple]

A smaller professional RO like my Lapierre 250 Turbo will do 13% +/- in a single pass. I set the concentrate to .5 gpm and the high pressure 400 psi. It would cost as much or more to build an RO yourself as it would to buy a good used one like mine.

Thats a great call Russell. Definitely have to weigh out all the options. What are you normally sending to the rig for %? Just the first pass of 13%?


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[Russell Lampron]

Thats a great call Russell. Definitely have to weigh out all the options. What are you normally sending to the rig for %? Just the first pass of 13%?


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The raw sap when I got those numbers was 1.4%. I only single pass like that when I've got a small amount of sap to add to a larger amount that I've already sweetened.

[calvertbrothers]

thats true ken. its a toss up and i dont have that answer whether its better to run more concentrate and less hours or more running hours and faster flow?

but i know the membranes are cheaper than pumps

For me time is valuable. One pass Is better for me. I run my operation off a 30kw diesel generator. I burn through 6 gallons of fuel every ro/boiling section. I’m adding more taps and if my math is correct if I add another membrane I’ll only Have to ro and boil at the same time for 4 hours instead of 6 hours with less taps.😁 cutting down on fuel overhead. Every time I clean the ro it takes 4 hours and 4 gallons of fuel. Will be moving sugar near the road in a few years with electric!

[eagle lake sugar]

The biggest consideration when concentrating at higher brix like this is pre planning your evaporation. You have to r/o for several hours before starting the evaporator or you'll catch up with the .5 gpm concentrate flow very fast. I could pump 30 gallons an hour of concentrate to my head tank for 4 hours and run my evaporator for an hour and be out of concentrate.

[TapTapTap]

[QUOTE=fred;384904]thats true ken. its a toss up and i dont have that answer whether its better to run more concentrate and less hours or more running hours and faster flow?
/QUOTE]

I assume there's some increase in production by squeezing the sap harder but it may not be that great since output drops so fast. I'll need to chek it next year and compare output to concentration. My sense is that it's somewhat tied to how hard the pump works with some correction for efficiency. So looking from the power side, if I'm working the pump at 85% load then i can only gain that last 15% on the schedule.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll put an amp meter on the system for next year.

[calvertbrothers]

[QUOTE=fred;384904]thats true ken. its a toss up and i dont have that answer whether its better to run more concentrate and less hours or more running hours and faster flow?
/QUOTE]

I assume there's some increase in production by squeezing the sap harder but it may not be that great since output drops so fast. I'll need to chek it next year and compare output to concentration. My sense is that it's somewhat tied to how hard the pump works with some correction for efficiency. So looking from the power side, if I'm working the pump at 85% load then i can only gain that last 15% on the schedule.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll put an amp meter on the system for next year.

If this help we have looked into this a little. And we have drawn more amps at 300 to 350 psi then running at 400 to 425 psi on the membrane. Idk what it will be if we start running at 450 to 475 psi. I thought when I first got the ro if I ran lower pressure on the membrane it would be better for it. But in all reality I was hurting the pump. I rather buy a $600 membrane and a high pressure pump.

[fred]

gallons per hour processed will go down the more you concentrate.

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=calvertbrothers;385021][QUOTE=TapTapTap;385003]
And we have drawn more amps at 300 to 350 psi then running at 400 to 425 psi on the membrane. Idk what it will be if we start running at 450 to 475 psi.

With centrifugal pumps the higher the pressure the less power they use. More flow at low pressure equals higher amps, higher pressure at low flow equals lower amps. If you are running a pump at some point on the pump curve it will not hurt it. The worst thing we do to our RO pumps is rinsing at low pressure. That is if the high pressure pumps run during the rinse on the machine.