Making an ro to handle 2000 taps

[cjf12]

We keep expanding and really need to shorten our boil time. I have searched for the threads on ro builds but I'm not finding much info on anything larger than 1 4x40 post membrane. I have that and am looking to expand it or start all over. Where and how do I find some info on a 2 4x40 or even an 8 inch post.
We currently have around 1500 taps totals and expand by a few hundred every year. I'm shot from this season. Full time job and a 2.5x8 evaporator with around 60 to 75 evap rate. Too many 3 hrs of sleep nights have me pretty short and irritable with all those around.
I have been batch ro'ing up to 8% but would love to understand how recirculating it up to x% works. Not sure on that plumbing configuration.
Thanks for all thoughts, helps, and leads.
Goodnight. Here's to my first 7 hrs of sleep in weeks.

[Russell Lampron]

With that many taps it's time to sell the homemade RO and buy a professional RO. A professional 600, which is the size that you would need, uses a 5 hp high pressure pump which I think would be hard to find and expensive.

When I was looking I found a lot of used Lapierre and CDL 600 RO's in the $5000 to $8500 range. Those are the only two brands that I would consider because I feel that the recirculation systems on them are superior to the competition.

I don't know your budget but being able to quickly concentrate into the teens cuts down the boiling time and fuel use. It also gives you time to do other things like get a good nights sleep. That makes sugaring fun again. The fuel and time savings pay for that RO pretty fast.

[JoeJ]

I had a Lapierre 600 RO that I used as I expanded from about 700 taps to 1,000. The machine capacity was Ok at 1,000 taps. When I expanded for 1,000 to 3,200, I bought a Lapierre 1,200. Now at 3,200 plus 200 taps from my nephew, the 1,200 has to work hard all day to keep up on a big day like Monday. If you are going to be at 2,000 taps I would absolutely recommend buying a 1,200 Lapierre RO. My 1,200 easily concentrates to 15% and I like boiling that sap.

Joe

[Kh7722]

With that many taps it's time to sell the homemade RO and buy a professional RO. A professional 600, which is the size that you would need, uses a 5 hp high pressure pump which I think would be hard to find and expensive.

When I was looking I found a lot of used Lapierre and CDL 600 RO's in the $5000 to $8500 range. Those are the only two brands that I would consider because I feel that the recirculation systems on them are superior to the competition.

I don't know your budget but being able to quickly concentrate into the teens cuts down the boiling time and fuel use. It also gives you time to do other things like get a good nights sleep. That makes sugaring fun again. The fuel and time savings pay for that RO pretty fast.

Id second that. Spend the money on a professional unit that way you know it works when it needs to. Plus parts and service are readily available if something happens. You will not regret it even if its used, all the brands are so well built
Just my 2 cents
Kevin

[maple flats]

A few time I took enough sap in that I had 2000 taps worth. A 250 (2x4x40") does not keep up with that volume when you have a good day. I also had to refuse a few loads of sap back then because my 250 was too small. Also, at 37F my 250 only does 2% to 8%. A better RO can do far more.

[cjf12]

Thanks for the input. While not excited about spending that much I do understand the need sometimes. May take some time to convince the wife. If anyone has a used one let me know. Thanks all.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Keep an eye in the classifieds section on here, especially late spring before the open houses and in the fall/early winter as sugarmakers start to think about maple again. There are plenty of used RO’s posted there.

[cjf12]

Struggling with the money side of things for a commercially built ro. Contemplating adding another membrane and recirculation for this next season. Hopefully I can save some $ and improve in the future.
2 questions. Will my procon 330 run 2 membranes? Thought I read somewhere it couldn't but now I see some older posts that it can.
2nd question. Is anyone willing to show me a few pics or a schematic on recirculation with a 2 post 4x40 ro?

[bill m]

I don't think I will ever go back to single pass again. My H2O 600 GPH machine has no problem going to 13 %. A recirculation line is simple. I have a tee at my concentration tank with 2 valves and a line going back to my sap tank. After I bring back the first load (600 gallons) of sap I start the RO and let it recirculate back to the sap tank while I go finish collecting. By the time I am ready to boil It is up to about 11 to 12 %. I then tighten up my concentrate valve to get 13% or maybe a little more then start the evaporator.

[maple flats]

Even my little 250 Deer Run has re-circulation, but not with a separate pump. It simply does it by having a bypass on a needle valve from just before the main pressure needle valve back to the high pressure pump inlet. That works but generally it can only give you maybe 2-3% higher output % but that is while you give up some of the GPH output. I often use it to get a gain of 1-2%, I can't get higher while boiling or the RO doesn't keep up with my evaporator. In fact 2% gain while boiling is only sometimes, like if I'm running some less desirable wood, like if fueling with some basswood (I had to remove 3 large basswood stems 2 yrs ago so I could put in my shop). It burns but sure has less heat. When I'm running beech, oak, sugar maple or other better woods I can't keep up with any re-circulation, then to keep up I need to back off slightly on the pressure to get more gph thru the RO.
You likely need more than a 250, I'd think a 600 minimum and a 1000-1200 much better.
Another option, if you can build it, have the room and power to run it, 2 RO's at 250 maybe. In that case run one at lower pressure for more GPH and run the second at higher pressure for more concentration. Even then it would be stretching things.

[cjf12]

Right now I do recirculate the concentrate thru the head tank back through the ro. Over n over until I foul out the membrane when it pushes 8-10%. Will a recirculating system at the ro like maple flats described benefit that much? Just do what I'm doing?

[maple flats]

Likely just do what you are doing. One thing that does help is to either find a way to mix the tank a few times or draw from the middle of the tank. When you pull from the bottom you are getting the most dense part and running it thru again. The more sugar, the heavier it is.

[Mead Maple]

Likely just do what you are doing. One thing that does help is to either find a way to mix the tank a few times or draw from the middle of the tank. When you pull from the bottom you are getting the most dense part and running it thru again. The more sugar, the heavier it is.

Been watching this thread from afar but a cool idea. Even a simple bulkhead fitting plumbed into the lower feed line with some valves to switch the draw source would work well. Great idea maple flats


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[Russell Lampron]

Been watching this thread from afar but a cool idea. Even a simple bulkhead fitting plumbed into the lower feed line with some valves to switch the draw source would work well. Great idea maple flats


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I've thought of making a floating pick-up using a hose with a float on the end to suck the sap from the top of the tank. I never did that because I added a second tower to my RO and don't recirc back into the sweet tank anymore. I did make a diffuser though so that the first pass can cool some as it goes in to the sweet tank.

[Clinkis]

Struggling with the money side of things for a commercially built ro. Contemplating adding another membrane and recirculation for this next season. Hopefully I can save some $ and improve in the future.
2 questions. Will my procon 330 run 2 membranes? Thought I read somewhere it couldn't but now I see some older posts that it can.
2nd question. Is anyone willing to show me a few pics or a schematic on recirculation with a 2 post 4x40 ro?

Yes you can run 2 membranes with a 330 procon. I’m currently running 3 membranes in series with a 330 procon. I started off with 2 for a couple years and this year I added a third. I recirculate in batches up to about 12-14%. I have to flush between each batch to keep flow rates up but overall works very well. The big thing is being vigilant with washing and rinsing to keep membranes in good shape.

On another note, I’ve probably got over $3500 into my RO. If I’d know I could buy a used Lapierre 600 for $5000 I think you’d be crazy not to go with the commercial RO. I’m very happy with my homemade RO but it’s no comparison to a commercial unit.

[wiam]

When I used to recirculate my tank fed from the bottom. I had a piece of 1” plastic pipe that would fit into the bottom fitting. It had slots cut in the pipe about half way up the tank height. The pipe was long enough to reach the tank top. I would drop it in the drain before starting ro. This did two things. Drew from farther up tank. Also would shut down ro when it had removed 1/2 the water. Then I would pull the pipe out, restart ro and send to my feed tank.

[cjf12]

Yes you can run 2 membranes with a 330 procon. I’m currently running 3 membranes in series with a 330 procon. I started off with 2 for a couple years and this year I added a third. I recirculate in batches up to about 12-14%. I have to flush between each batch to keep flow rates up but overall works very well. The big thing is being vigilant with washing and rinsing to keep membranes in good shape.

On another note, I’ve probably got over $3500 into my RO. If I’d know I could buy a used Lapierre 600 for $5000 I think you’d be crazy not to go with the commercial RO. I’m very happy with my homemade RO but it’s no comparison to a commercial unit.
Series is one membrane flowing to second then to third correct? Verses parrellel would have all 3 fed at same time? Does the 3rd membrane foul fairly quick? I understand you'll get higher concentrate but if it fouls quick would you be better keeping flow rates up in parrellell and let all three foul about the same time as your tank hits higher concentration?
Thanks for the help guys.

[Clinkis]

They all seem to foul at about the same rate as far as I can tell. Yes in series is one membrane feeding into the next membrane. Running parallel would not be an option with this size of pump because your flow rate per membrane would be cut in 1/2 (or 1/3 in my case) and they would foul very quickly. Series is definitely best for this size of pump.