3/16 sanitation

[springhillsmaple]

I'm very happy with the 3/16 for gravity vacuum in general, but are having premature tap "drying" in the half of our tubing that is in its second year of use. I thought I'd see what kinds of solutions I could crowdsource on here.

Last year, after the season, we washed the tubing with calcium bleach with a long contact time. Each line and all drops were filled completely and let to stand for several days. I thought this would leave the lines almost as good as new. Not so. After 4 weeks, the flow from that bush was noticeably under-performing. Upon inspection, taps were dry and yeast was present in the clear spouts and lines. The new lines are still running great and are clear after 6 weeks. I suspect substantial backflow issues due to ice blocking the mainline at times as well as the normal negative tree pressure induced backflow. We are probably looking at a yield of about 15 gpt on the second year tubing and about 25+ gpt on the new.

Here are solutions that I've thought of and I'm curious what folks think about these solutions or have any of their own they'd like to suggest.

1. Run bleach solution through lines for longer and under higher pressure before capping off to dislodge more yeast etc.

2. Switch from 3/16 drops to 5/16 drops to make backflow less of a problem because the trees won't be able to slurp up as much sap at night.

3. Use Check valve spouts.

4. Add a vacuum pump of some kind to keep flow positive more often. (We have high gravity vacuum on most lines, but not all). I assume this would improve yields as well, but I don't know how well since we have many very long laterals and also maxed out mainlines that would be a pain to replace with larger ones.

5. Some combination of the above.

[DrTimPerkins]

1. Run bleach solution through lines for longer and under higher pressure before capping off to dislodge more yeast etc.

Probably won't be any more effective than what you are doing. Question -- Did you use new spouts in addition to bleach cleaning? Two problems with sanitizing systems is cleaning spouts in addition to the tubing system. Best would be to replace spouts in addition to bleach cleaning (followed by rinsing to reduce squirrel problems). Secondly...the time you clean is important. Cleaning in the spring feels good, but microbes will regrow in the system over the summer/fall. Bleach has no residual action to keep killing microbes after it has been used. Bleach cleaning in the late-fall or early winter is more effective. The microbes don't grow back because of the cold.


2. Switch from 3/16 drops to 5/16 drops to make backflow less of a problem because the trees won't be able to slurp up as much sap at night.

May help a little...probably not a huge amount though.


3. Use Check valve spouts.

Will help, but you'll still need to bleach clean to prevent clogging of fittings (tees, unions, saddles) in the 3/16" system. CVs alone cannot solve the issue of clogging.


4. Add a vacuum pump of some kind to keep flow positive more often. (We have high gravity vacuum on most lines, but not all). I assume this would improve yields as well, but I don't know how well since we have many very long laterals and also maxed out mainlines that would be a pain to replace with larger ones.

May not help much if you are already getting high vacuum in your lateral lines. Have you checked using gauges at the top of the lines to be sure that is the case? If you're already maxing out the vacuum, having more vacuum won't help. Vacuum is like an empty balloon. Sucking on it won't get more air out of the balloon...it is already empty. So adding more vacuum to max vacuum doesn't gain you anything in terms of yield...pumped vacuum may help in leak detection though. Now if a lot of your trees are lower down on the slope, the are getting less natural vacuum with 3/16" tubing, so having a small pump as an adjunct might be in order.


5. Some combination of the above.

Probably...

Best results will likely be achieved with ---
1. Bleach cleaning + new spouts will get you good yields (assuming you keep the 3/16" system tight and it generates decent vacuum)
2. Bleach cleaning + CV spouts (will probably get you a little more)
3. Replacement of all connectors (tees, unions, saddles) every 3rd year + use of new spouts or CV spouts

Lastly, sanitation effects are highly dependent upon how the season plays out. Not much you can do if it gets really hot on several occasions during the season. Good sanitation will help, but it can't completely overcome the weather.

[Cody]

Dr.Tim have you ever heard of Star San acid sanitizer. Made by Five Star Chemicals. There web site is fivestarchemicals.com I know one producer that uses it, no bleach sanitizer.

[maple flats]

I get good results but I change the taps, and all fittings after year 1 and the drop are new after 3 seasons.

[sugarsand]

[QUOTE=maple flats;381564]I get good results but I change the taps, and all fittings after year 1 and the drop are new after 3 seasons.[/QUOTE
I may be missing something, you change your taps and fittings each year but not the drops?

[springhillsmaple]

Thanks for the replies Dr. Tim and Dave! In answer to your questions, Dr. Tim, We do replace spouts each year with new ones, and as far as gravity vacuum, the trees are spaced along the slope all the way from max vacuum height down to the same level as the mainline. I suppose about a third of the taps are less than 20' above the mainline, a third are between 20' and 40', and a third are higher than 40'. We DO wash the lines immediately after the season, so I'm thinking that washing with bleach in the late fall would be the biggest, most cost effective change we could make. I might still have to wash them post-season as well for my own sense of completion to be satisfied. Ha.

Given this new information, I'm thinking
1. Wash the lines with bleach in the fall
2. Add cv spouts to a section of the bush and decide for myself if it seems worth it. I'd have three treatments. New everything in the expansion area, washed in fall with new spouts, and washed in fall with new cv spouts.
3. probably won't get to this, but trialing a vacuum pump on one of the lines would be interesting.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr.Tim have you ever heard of Star San acid sanitizer. Made by Five Star Chemicals. There web site is fivestarchemicals.com I know one producer that uses it, no bleach sanitizer.

Yes, it is basically a phosphoric acid based sanitizer. We tried acid-based sanitizers early on, but they didn't make the cut for our large-scale field trials because they were either: 1) not as effective as other sanitizers and/or 2) not as commonly used as other sanitizers.

[DrTimPerkins]

New everything in the expansion area, washed in fall with new spouts, and washed in fall with new cv spouts.

Summarizing a LOT of research at UVM, Cornell, and Canada (Quebec and Ontario), what you will find is:

New drops + new spouts will produce the highest yields, but is costly due to materials, construction, and installation time. A 3-yr drop replacement interval will work well, but your overall net profit will be slightly lower than other options.

Washed (long-contact time) in fall with bleach (followed by rinse or allow first sap to run on the ground) and new spouts will produce about the same yields, net profits will be good if your labor costs are low UNLESS you have squirrel problems.

CV spouts (or adapters) will produce slightly lower sap yields than the former treatments, but cost is low (primarily due to reduced labor and lack of rinsing or letting sap run on the ground), so net profits are high.

21216

[GeneralStark]

Summarizing a LOT of research at UVM, Cornell, and Canada (Quebec and Ontario)

Is that data specifically for 3/16 tubing?

With 3/16 tubing I have been finding that drop replacement (5/16 drop + Tee) and a new spout is not nearly as effective as with 5/16 tubing. Backflow is more pronounced in 3/16 so even with a new drop and spout the taphole closes earlier in my experience. My solution has been a new drop (tubing + Tee) and a check valve spout. My plan currently is to change the drop every other year on 3/16 and use a CV spout every year.

I don't use any sanitizer though I do flush the lines on vacuum with a 50/50 water/vinegar solution.

All my 3/16 is on mechanical vacuum mainline.

[DrTimPerkins]

No, you are correct that this is for 5/16" systems. 3/16" tubing hasn't been around long enough for us to have as good a handle on it, although we do know that sanitation practices alone will not solve the plugging issues in 3/16" tubing, so additional or different approaches are needed in combination with sanitation.

With 3/16" systems flushing or sanitation OR replacement of all fittings at least every 3 yrs is recommended.

I personally do NOT like using sodium bleach due to squirrel damage issues.

[Dundee Ridge]

CV spouts (or adapters) will produce slightly lower sap yields than the former treatments, but cost is low (primarily due to reduced labor and lack of rinsing or letting sap run on the ground), so net profits are high.

21216

I've been following this thread closely. Thank you for all the great info.

Question on the use of CV Spouts and the strategy for their usage you are describing. Are the same spouts used every year. and is there any other sanitation done in this scenario?

[maple flats]

[QUOTE=maple flats;381564]I get good results but I change the taps, and all fittings after year 1 and the drop are new after 3 seasons.[/QUOTE
I may be missing something, you change your taps and fittings each year but not the drops?
Yes, I cut off old taps and tees plus any connectors in the 3/16 line and replace with new ones in years 2 and 3, then in year 4, new drops with the tap and tee, then I also cut out all connectors and put in new ones. The tees and connectors are where debris can plug the fittings. During the season I also look for plugged fittings, if I find one, it gets replaced.
This method has served me well in 2018 and 2019 to average .5 gal syrup/tap on 26-27" vacuum. Unless this weather gets better, I won't likely get 1/2 gal/tap this year, I will need lots of additional freeze thaw cycles, but my first boil last year was about March 15 if I recall, this year I've already had 5 boils.

[DrTimPerkins]

Are the same spouts used every year. and is there any other sanitation done in this scenario?

With 3/16" tubing there are two things required.

1. Minimum of flushing lines with water. Sanitizer is preferred followed by flushing (or allowing first sap to run on the ground). An ALTERNATIVE to flushing is to replace ALL fittings (tees, unions and saddles if you use mainline) at least every 3rd year. This is done to reduce/prevent clogging.

2. Spout/drop sanitation. Similar to 5/16" tubing. Minimum is to replace spouts annually and replace drops every 3rd year. ALTERNATIVE is to use new CV spouts annually and not replace drops every 3rd yr (although you still need to accomplish #1 somehow). Another ALTERNATIVE is to wash with chlorine (preferably in fall), rinse, and use new spouts annually. This is done to achieve good sanitation at the taphole to produce high yields.

New spouts are used EVERY year.

[DrTimPerkins]

This method has served me well in 2018 and 2019 to average .5 gal syrup/tap on 26-27" vacuum. Unless this weather gets better, I won't likely get 1/2 gal/tap this year, I will need lots of additional freeze thaw cycles, but my first boil last year was about March 15 if I recall, this year I've already had 5 boils.

Have faith Dave. You might get there. Still plenty early :cool:

[springhillsmaple]

I thought I’d revisit this thread one year later. So even though it took 3 people two days each time, we washed all 2600 taps of 3/16 tubing with calcium hypochlorite BOTH last spring and this winter. Phew! It was annoying but wow. The sap ran proportionally in ALL the lines all season. Two year old lines, one year old lines, and new lines. We’ve had some very warm weather and they’re still running buddy sap. I am very pleased. I am hoping that I can keep washing the lines twice, and avoid having any biofilm buildup, and not have to replace lines or drops for many years. I’ll keep putting a new spout on each year.

[Rodmeister]

Springshillmaple, thanks for sharing and updating your experience.
This is my 1st year and I am running 3/16 gravity and some buckets. Gravity is such a improvement in production per tap compared to my buckets. I am a small hobby producer so stretching the life of tubing is appealing not to mention the consistency you have achieved.
When you state you "wash" the lines, are you pumping the calcium hypochlorite through the line or spraying it into the drop lines with a hand sprayer? Sounds like you are happy with the results.

[SeanD]

With 3/16" tubing there are two things required.

1. Minimum of flushing lines with water. Sanitizer is preferred followed by flushing (or allowing first sap to run on the ground). An ALTERNATIVE to flushing is to replace ALL fittings (tees, unions and saddles if you use mainline) at least every 3rd year. This is done to reduce/prevent clogging.

2. Spout/drop sanitation. Similar to 5/16" tubing. Minimum is to replace spouts annually and replace drops every 3rd year. ALTERNATIVE is to use new CV spouts annually and not replace drops every 3rd yr (although you still need to accomplish #1 somehow). Another ALTERNATIVE is to wash with chlorine (preferably in fall), rinse, and use new spouts annually. This is done to achieve good sanitation at the taphole to produce high yields.

New spouts are used EVERY year.

Dr. Tim,

Thanks for all your input on this - and the videos are great. All my lines come down each year, so I cut the drops off and soak them in chlorine in a tub for 10-15 minutes. They dry then get stored in a closed tub until next spring. Should I give them a soak in the fall instead or is that just for drops in the woods? The drops are stored in the sugarhouse where they do get freezing winter temps.

Cutting the drops has been a game changer for taking down lines, making sanitizing drops easier, and reducing clogs by getting a new tee each year. Full disclosure, I've been re-using the CVs for years 2 and 3. They get sanitized with the rest of the drop. I replace broken or stained ones, but most go back out. One area just had year 3 and I'm replacing those drops as part of my 3-year intervals. I haven't noticed a significant drop in production from previous years or other lines. Is that just dumb luck and the variables of a small operation and weather or is sanitizing the spout years 2 and 3 having a benefit?

If I continue to sanitize by cutting the drop and change the tee and the spout annually my cost per tap jumps and I'm effectively replacing drops every year. I'd go back to squirting sanitizer in the drop, leaving the tee for years 2 and 3, and replacing the CV each year.

I'd appreciate your input. Thanks.

[DrTimPerkins]

If your drops are sanitized and then stored dry until they are redeployed in the spring you're fine.

CVs are designed to be replaced annually. The risk of reusing them is that biofilm can form on the ball and make them less likely to seal properly if reused.

[SeanD]

Got it. Back to leaving the drops on then (the not fun way of putting up and taking down laterals). Thanks for the feedback.

[springhillsmaple]

Springshillmaple, thanks for sharing and updating your experience.
This is my 1st year and I am running 3/16 gravity and some buckets. Gravity is such a improvement in production per tap compared to my buckets. I am a small hobby producer so stretching the life of tubing is appealing not to mention the consistency you have achieved.
When you state you "wash" the lines, are you pumping the calcium hypochlorite through the line or spraying it into the drop lines with a hand sprayer? Sounds like you are happy with the results.


Most of our lines are long with a substantial drop and 20-30 taps. We have someone walk across the tops of the lines with buckets of bleach solution. The bucket lids each have a hole for some sapline to use as a siphon. They clip off the last spout, and let gravity suck it down until the line is full of solution. If it doesn’t suck on it’s own, you just start it by siphoning. It helps to hang the bucket on a spout or on a nearby branch. A person at the bottom waits for bleach to run through, and then kinks the end of the line and slips a 3/4” ring (cut from old mainline) over the kink to block the flow. With the last drop line still siphoning from the bucket at the top, each tap is pulled, allowed to flow through with bleach, then plugged into the t. Then the top spout is plugged into the t and we move the bucket to the next line. Each long line uses about 1.5-2 gallons to clean. It’s an annoying task, but I’m just glad to find something that works well, even if it takes extra effort.

[minehart gap]

This season I used Art Krueger's method a little modified. I used 400 ppm chlorine water solution in every tap in January, tapped January 23rd but didn't get any sap until March 3rd. Last sap was March 23rd but I harvested more sap in this year's 3 week season then I did last season. The only other change is that I am in the process of changing over to zap bac spouts.
I am still getting sap, just stopped keeping it when the syrup went buddy.

[Mellandermaple]

I plan to sanitize my 3/16 this year. Squirrels are a problem, so I hesitate to use regular bleach. Any suggestions? Also what concentration should be used? I am willing to use bleach if there is no other choice. There is a clear difference in performance of my newly installed lines and the older ones. I am still getting a good flow on the new ones, but the old are done.

[toothfairy050]

Art Krueger Youtube

[t-ciccarello]

This thread is super helpful. Thanks to Dr. Tim and everyone else for sharing their knowledge and guidance. First year with tubing was last year, left the system up this summer, planning on changing the seasonal taps from last year to CV taps this year. Has anyone ever tried flushing with lysol or a similar cleaning agent? I can get a gallon jug at the local warehouse supplier, but wondering if it'll leave a taste or effect the tubing at all. With the shortage on chlorine this year, is there a bleach alternative that makes sense for fall sanitization of tubing? Thanks again.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would STRONGLY advise against using Lysol or any other non-approved sanitizer.

[t-ciccarello]

Noted!! Thanks again!

[buckeye gold]

go to a pool shop and buy a 1 lb bag of powdered chlorine. With 45 taps it will make enough solution to last you two years or more. Including washing tanks

[heathrunmaple]

I was looking for information on 3/16 and found this thread. Dr Tim says change fittings and drops every 3 years. Is that after 2 years of use and before the 3rd year or after 3 years of use? I’m on an after 3rd year of use rotation and I just wanted to make sure. I have seen a steady decline in production each year but my 3/16 always out produces my 5/16 on moderate vacuum so I’m still very happy. My woods with 5/16 has minimal drop while my other 2 woods are perfect for 3/16. I haven’t sanitized my lines either so I think I’ll do that late fall/early winter next year and see what that does for me. Thanks for any information anyone can share.

Chris
Heath Run Maple Products
Ulysses PA
3100 taps