Defoamer

[sapman]

Question about residual defoamer in syrup. I know it's so minuscule, it's really a non issue. But wonder if any research has been done to see if it is filtered out in filtering process. Hope Dr. Tim has input on this.

[Jeff E]

My understanding is the DE, or Filter Aid, removes the oils in the filtering process. Not sure about fabric filtering...I would think it would pass through.

[tgormley358]

Good topic - defoamer. Sorry I can’t help a lot with the original poster question. But this season I tried “organic” canola oil, and found it’s barely functional compared to the regular defoamer
I’ve used the last four years. To get the foam down with canola oil I have to sprinkle quite a few drops and then wait. The regular defamer is almost instantaneous with just barely a drop or two.

In the last four years I’ve never noticed any oil visually or taste wise in my syrup. I’d worry more about the canola oil since I have to use more of it to get the bubbles down.

[sapman]

I tried canola a couple weeks ago, as id like to consider organic. But didn't seem to do anything. I probably didn't use enough, or wait long enough.

I I sometimes notice a little color on the big bubbles in the draw off tank, like oil or something. I assume this is defoamer residual. But i assume the press removes it, too.

[DrTimPerkins]

...wonder if any research has been done to see if it is filtered out in filtering process.

Dr. Abby has been working on a defoamer project for a few years, the aim of which was to identify a suitable organic defoamer. In general, the residual amount of oil remaining is very low after filtering (this would be mostly via filter press). We find in our (organic-certified) operation that typically near the very end of the season the organic defoamers are almost completely ineffective and we have to "decertify" and switch back to conventional defoamers (which are clearly marked as NON-ORGANIC).

[Ghs57]

I noticed on my last boil that canola oil was not nearly as effective as it was at the start of the season. I have a bottle of defoamer, but I'm going to try to get through the season without it. We'll see. Too much foam in the syrup pan with an intense fire (and an inattentive tender) is not a good combination.

[Bruce L]

I switched couple of years ago to Safflower oil,takes more than Atmos defoamer,but at times thought I could taste a bit of tang on the syrup from too much Atmos,might be just in my head.

[Bricklayer]

I used CDL’s liquid defoamer for years and liked it. But found it would get hard if left in fridge or cold environment. Then would have to soak it in warm water just to use it again.
Switched over to the CDL Kosher powdered defoamer last 2 years and love it.
Each boil with 8% concentrate I maybe use a teaspoon worth of defoamer.

[Dave Puhl]

I have used canola oil for years...just adding to the flue pan..I have seen and hear when I need to use it and it knocks it down right away for me..I finish and just pre filtered off the syrup pan. Then settled out for several days then pre filtered and orlon..havent seen any oily residue in the syrup...I just checked the bottle and it is pure canola oil..

[Jeff E]

A related issue is niter build up. When the pan starts to get dirty in the finish area of the pan, it will boil differently, needing more defoamer to keep the draw offs consistent. For me this is when I reverse the flow of my evaporator. This typically resolves the issue for the first 1/3 of the season.
Here in NW Wisconsin, I am about there (1/3 of season done) and last night reversing couldn't keep up with the build up. So tonight I clean the evaporator.
Dirty pans usually mean needing lots of defoamer!

[sapman]

Dr. Abby has been working on a defoamer project for a few years, the aim of which was to identify a suitable organic defoamer. In general, the residual amount of oil remaining is very low after filtering (this would be mostly via filter press). We find in our (organic-certified) operation that typically near the very end of the season the organic defoamers are almost completely ineffective and we have to "decertify" and switch back to conventional defoamers (which are clearly marked as NON-ORGANIC).

I was at Abby's seminar last year, and saw the Digest article. Sounds encouraging. Perhaps I should consider trying going organic, then decertify late in season as well. A large sugarmaker told me canola was working well for them, as they try to transition.

Appreciate all the input on the thread!

[Aaron Stack]

Wonder if folks can help with a basic question - Just how much defoamer am I putting in the cup?

I get I want to add a drop or two to the pan at each re-fire, but what goes in the cup? I don't think all that much so the syrup isn't impacted, but what's that... 1/4... 1/2...?

[VTnewguy]

In the cup? Not sure what you mean. We put two drops in our back pan every 9 minutes when we fire the evaporator. We try to be consistent on doing the same thing every time.

[Aaron Stack]

In the cup? Not sure what you mean. We put two drops in our back pan every 9 minutes when we fire the evaporator. We try to be consistent on doing the same thing every time.

One of these - https://www.smokylakemaple.com/product/defoamer-cup/

Or is it supposed to be a replacement for the drops?

[Jeff E]

Looks like you install the cup in you pan, just above your sap level. If the sap starts to foam, the sap level comes up and overflows into the cup, picking up the few drops of defoamer you have put in it.
That knocks down the foam. You would need to make sure there is always a bit of defoamer in the cup.

This would be done instead of putting in drops. The advantage is you don't have to pay as much attention to the boil. The disadvantage is you don't have to pay as much attention to the boil. :)

[DrTimPerkins]

A large sugarmaker told me canola was working well for them, as they try to transition.

Canola works OK...as does the Safflower oil we used for years, but there is a tendency to use too much because their effectiveness isn't great. The auto-drippers definitely encourage overuse of oil because they don't react automatically when foaming gets high. Therefore people just tend to open them up a bit more to keep the foam under control, which ends up being too much.

[ir3333]

Has anybody checked and found oil residue in their syrup? With an intense boil i thought it
would just vaporize and that is why you have to keep adding it.

[DrTimPerkins]

Has anybody checked and found oil residue in their syrup? With an intense boil i thought it
would just vaporize and that is why you have to keep adding it.

There is typically a very small "fat" content remaining in maple syrup, almost negligible. The "smoke point" of defoaming oils is higher than the temperature of the boiling liquid, so residue remains, although the defoaming effectiveness drops off during the boiling process.

[Aaron Stack]

Looks like you install the cup in you pan, just above your sap level. If the sap starts to foam, the sap level comes up and overflows into the cup, picking up the few drops of defoamer you have put in it.
That knocks down the foam. You would need to make sure there is always a bit of defoamer in the cup.

This would be done instead of putting in drops. The advantage is you don't have to pay as much attention to the boil. The disadvantage is you don't have to pay as much attention to the boil. :)

Hah! Thanks Jeff. Oh I’ll be watching the boil like a hawk.

[VTnewguy]

I would be cautious about using a cup to hold defoamer. A couple of drops goes a long ways on our 2x6.