First Boil - Near Burning Disaster - What Happened?

[Dundee Ridge]

Hi All,

So we had our frist boil on our 2x4 Smokey lake, Rasied Flu, SSR last week. It sure can rip.

We were running 2"+ in the front pan, maybe 2.5", playing things safe. We were a couple degrees from drawing off and had a really hot fire going. We took our eyes off it for two seconds, and the temperature spiked, and we could smell that something burnt. I immiedietly flooded the front pan with sap and calmed things down but it wasn't quick enough. We had burnt a fair bit of sap (really dark, and burnt flavor) and also burnt about a " length of the final channel in the finish pan, right in the middle starting at the point where the termometer probe reaches too. I managed to get the plan cleaned and the char removed over the week (50/50 vinegar + heat + elbow grease) and then we had a successfull boil and draw offs over the weekend without incident. However, we are on pins and needles the whole time not wanting to make the same mistake again. It would be easier to relax if we knew what our mistake was.

Some of our thoughts are:

- Foamed at the wrong time and we didn't catch it? This makes us feel like we need to watch like a HAWK during any boil, which puts us on pins and needles
- Too agreesive of a fire close to drawing off? A couple degrees doesn't seem THAT close. The burnt sap we took from the pan wasn't floating the hydrometer at all.
- Contaiminents in the pans due to it being new and our first boil? We had rinsed the pans with water, but hadn't heated it.

Any advice to help us relax a little on future boils?

Thanks all.

[DrTimPerkins]

Perhaps the level got off a little as the pan/arch got hot, along with foaming.

[tcross]

could you have been making syrup in your middle channels without knowing it. then perhaps it got pushed into the front and got too heavy too quickly? just throwing out an idea...

[Dundee Ridge]

Perhaps the level got off a little as the pan/arch got hot, along with foaming.

How would they have gotten off? We have a float box from flue pan to finish pan? Is there something else we should be watching?

[tcross]

i think he meant the level of your evaporator... not the sap in it. i make sure mine is level every time it gets fired and if it's a long boil, i'll check it occasionally. i have to do that until the frost is completely out of the ground.

[DrTimPerkins]

That is correct. Your pans or arch could have gotten a bit out of level as it heated up and expanded.

[maple flats]

Any evaporator with channels can start to make syrup in the middle before it does at the draw off. The greatest chance is before a first draw and if you reverse the flow. This is normal and not a flaw of the pans. It happens because the fire is hotter in the middle than in the other parts of the pan. You just need to keep a close eye on it until you have taken a draw of 2, at that point the gradients have been established. Don't walk away, but it then becomes easier and more predictable.
Glad you got it cleaned. It might even help, especially until you learn to recognize the density differences from how the boil looks, if you get an infrared non contact thermometer. That can help you see the differences in the temperature and that aids you in knowing the densities.
I use one before first 2 draws (I use an auto draw) or when I reverse the flow until those first 2 draws. After that I've not found the need. It can, if nothing else, give you piece of mind. This one gets good reviews and is under $20 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00837ZGRY?creativeASIN=B00837ZGRY&linkCode=w61&imprToken=4kG--OKv1Y9iKfke-PjdiA&slotNum=15&tag=temperaturewd-20
Check reviews online and you can find others priced right and rated as good, you can also find some at the other end of the price scale which are better but not necessary for what you need for your application.

[Dundee Ridge]

Any evaporator with channels can start to make syrup in the middle before it does at the draw off. The greatest chance is before a first draw and if you reverse the flow. This is normal and not a flaw of the pans. It happens because the fire is hotter in the middle than in the other parts of the pan. You just need to keep a close eye on it until you have taken a draw of 2, at that point the gradients have been established. Don't walk away, but it then becomes easier and more predictable.
Glad you got it cleaned. It might even help, especially until you learn to recognize the density differences from how the boil looks, if you get an infrared non contact thermometer. That can help you see the differences in the temperature and that aids you in knowing the densities.
I use one before first 2 draws (I use an auto draw) or when I reverse the flow until those first 2 draws. After that I've not found the need. It can, if nothing else, give you piece of mind. This one gets good reviews and is under $20 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00837ZGRY?creativeASIN=B00837ZGRY&linkCode=w61&imprToken=4kG--OKv1Y9iKfke-PjdiA&slotNum=15&tag=temperaturewd-20
Check reviews online and you can find others priced right and rated as good, you can also find some at the other end of the price scale which are better but not necessary for what you need for your application.

This all makes a good amount of sense. My thermometer probe is 9" long so it extends towards the middle of the pan, so it is pretty darn close to the hottest area and was touching the burn area. What's the best practice for when you do my syrup in the middle, draw off and finish somewhere else?

[Ed R]

This might not be the right way to handle getting syrup in the middle of the evaporator but here is what I do. I first add a couple of drops of defoamer to each channel of the front pan, so I can see what the actual level of the sap/sweet is in each channel . I then use a dipper or scoup to physically move (by pushing or dipping or both) the higher density sweet towards the draw off where its supposed to be going. You need to be able to visually determine or check with a thermometer as Dave indicated when this is happening. Once gradient is established this is usually not a problem. I always draw off weak sweet when shutting down and add it back in to the new sweet side when its boiling good if you reverse flow . If I am really nervous about having sweet in the middle and burning I open my fire doors to cut down on the boil till I get it under control.

[wmick]

I've been battling with similar challenges since I built my evaporator.... Syrup in the middle back but not at the draw off... and then suddenly needing to pull a huge draw at once... Then wait for ever again.. One thing I tried... but not sure how much it helped, was to trickle a little bit of product from the draw off constantly, even if it wasn't syrup.. (just to keep things moving in the right direction) and just pour if back in further back....

I've also played around with divider and draw off layouts... So far I've tried #1, #3 and #4... without satisfaction.... This year I am trying #2. Fingers Crossed.
21098

[buckeye gold]

When you start up in the morning and come to a boil then draw some off the syrup section and gradually add it back once the unit is "ripping
" as you said. That helps pull near syrup down out of the middle and draw new sap into your flue pan and helps your gradient.

[Dundee Ridge]

When you start up in the morning and come to a boil then draw some off the syrup section and gradually add it back once the unit is "ripping
" as you said. That helps pull near syrup down out of the middle and draw new sap into your flue pan and helps your gradient.

That makes sense, thank you.

[Biz]

I have a Smokey Lake 2x5 hybrid and I have to keep a close eye on it when it is ripping. The sap from float box enters the fluepan right where there is a wall of bubbles, and sap flow shuts off when boiling hard, because there is a mountain of bubbles blocking it. Levels in pans drop in half. I haven't figured out a way around it other than keep a close eye on it, keep a bucket of sap nearby, and run level a little high.

Dave

[tcross]

you can try running a stainless or copper pipe from your float box deeper into the flue pan so it empties away from the bubbles.

[fisheatingbagel]

I have a Smokey Lake 2x5 hybrid and I have to keep a close eye on it when it is ripping. The sap from float box enters the fluepan right where there is a wall of bubbles, and sap flow shuts off when boiling hard, because there is a mountain of bubbles blocking it. Levels in pans drop in half. I haven't figured out a way around it other than keep a close eye on it, keep a bucket of sap nearby, and run level a little high.

Dave

I have the same pan, and this same problem. When the fire is really hot, and boiling rapidly the boil inhibits flow from the float box and you run the risk of things going south fast. Still haven't figured out a way to minimize this problem! Maybe some sort of baffle around the outlet where it comes into the sap pan?

[wmick]

I have the same pan, and this same problem. When the fire is really hot, and boiling rapidly the boil inhibits flow from the float box and you run the risk of things going south fast. Still haven't figured out a way to minimize this problem! Maybe some sort of baffle around the outlet where it comes into the sap pan?
I had the same problem and ended up moving the outlet back a few inches. and went with bigger fittings.

[Sugarmaker]

I've been battling with similar challenges since I built my evaporator.... Syrup in the middle back but not at the draw off... and then suddenly needing to pull a huge draw at once... Then wait for ever again.. One thing I tried... but not sure how much it helped, was to trickle a little bit of product from the draw off constantly, even if it wasn't syrup.. (just to keep things moving in the right direction) and just pour if back in further back....

I've also played around with divider and draw off layouts... So far I've tried #1, #3 and #4... without satisfaction.... This year I am trying #2. Fingers Crossed.
21098

# 2 0r 3 should work fine.

OP Yes syrup can get confused and end up being way too heavy in the center of the pan where it is very hot and the gradient has not been established yet. But if you were really 2 inches deep then that syrup was really piled up pretty high my guess is you were about 1/2 inch deep. I have seen it go way over temp when deep but it doesnt burn until the pan is about dry. If you have hoods and lots of steam it can be difficult to see whats happening. The other thing is how long have you boiled on this rig? Sounds new it may consume sap much faster than you expect. Sounds like you made good syrup after that. By the way you should just about always be on pins and needles when making syrup in the words of Father and Son " your only 10 seconds away from disaster at any one moment" You had the OS bucket. Use a drop or two of defomer to bring the syrup to the draw off port. Use a simple scoop to pick up some syrup in the center partitions to see if it is aproning more.
Keep boiling! Congrats I believe you have now joined us in this thing we call sugarmaking!
Regards,
Chris

[Biz]

I had the same problem and ended up moving the outlet back a few inches. and went with bigger fittings.

Good advice, wish I had done it it prior to yesterday. Scorched my syrup pan last night which is fed by the flue pan, not sure why. Had to shut down my boil for the night. My theory is that the "wall of bubbles" near opening from flue to flat pan blocks sap from entering that pan too when things are boiling hard. I am going to run the sap much deeper, maybe 2" until I can get a fix for this. Perhaps adding a pipe from flue to syrup pan which draws sap from the middle of the pan so it doesn't get blocked.

Dave

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Would adding a defoamer cup inside the pan near the problem area help knock down the bubbles you guys are getting?

[Dundee Ridge]

# 2 0r 3 should work fine.

OP Yes syrup can get confused and end up being way too heavy in the center of the pan where it is very hot and the gradient has not been established yet. But if you were really 2 inches deep then that syrup was really piled up pretty high my guess is you were about 1/2 inch deep. I have seen it go way over temp when deep but it doesnt burn until the pan is about dry. If you have hoods and lots of steam it can be difficult to see whats happening. The other thing is how long have you boiled on this rig? Sounds new it may consume sap much faster than you expect. Sounds like you made good syrup after that. By the way you should just about always be on pins and needles when making syrup in the words of Father and Son " your only 10 seconds away from disaster at any one moment" You had the OS bucket. Use a drop or two of defomer to bring the syrup to the draw off port. Use a simple scoop to pick up some syrup in the center partitions to see if it is aproning more.
Keep boiling! Congrats I believe you have now joined us in this thing we call sugarmaking!
Regards,
Chris

Chris, thanks for your thoughts and kind words. You are right about things being hard to see whats going on with lots of steam. We have float boxes and everything was working properly both before and after the incident, but I guess I can't say the sap depth with certainty at the moment it burned because I flooded the pan once I knew there was a problem. With where my float box was set, it should have actually been giving me closer to 2.5" than anything less. I measured that the setting was accurate with a tape measure in the pan pre and post-boil.

[fisheatingbagel]

Good advice, wish I had done it it prior to yesterday. Scorched my syrup pan last night which is fed by the flue pan, not sure why. Had to shut down my boil for the night. My theory is that the "wall of bubbles" near opening from flue to flat pan blocks sap from entering that pan too when things are boiling hard. I am going to run the sap much deeper, maybe 2" until I can get a fix for this. Perhaps adding a pipe from flue to syrup pan which draws sap from the middle of the pan so it doesn't get blocked.

Dave

I scorched mine earlier this season (I'm in Kentucky, so my season started backed in January), and I believe it was due to the same problem - hard boil in the front of the flue pan, where the sap enters is preventing sap from entering the pan. Also had to shut down for the day, clean pans. I did manage to save most of the scorched syrup for our own use (actually not bad).

I need to do something before next season. Let us know if you make some modifications, and how it works out.

[fisheatingbagel]

Would adding a defoamer cup inside the pan near the problem area help knock down the bubbles you guys are getting?

It's not foam, just a very rigorous boil!

[Dundee Ridge]

So the issue in my OP has happened a few more times. We get to our draw off point, and everything looks great. We start drawing off and the temperature reading on the thermometer, with its probe located near the center of the draw-off flue, spikes. I flood the pan, but never in time to prevent scorching in the center of that draw off flue. Levels all seem fine, density of the syrup drawn off is great, etc. I have an SSR, and this has happened running in both directions in whichever flue is the draw-off flue at the time. I'm running 2" depth in the front pan.

My theory is that we are opening the valve and drawing off too quickly - too much at once. Our boil in the center of the flues in the front pan is very voilent, with the bubbles lifting a bit higher than anywhere else in the pans and surging towards the walls on each end of the flue. Could this voilent motion be preventing sap from traveling to the void created by the draw off for just a moment long enough to leave a dry spot, and when the incoming sap does reach that hot spot, it scorches? Im testing my theory by drawing off more slowly/gradually. Does this happen to others?

[Dundee Ridge]

The first post in this threat also sounds like it may be a theory...

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?30213-The-scorched-pan-sagas

[maple flats]

For my first draw of the day I usually open the draw off valve at about 2 degrees early, if the temperature the climbs to above draw temp in 10 seconds or so for that day, I put in into my draw off tank, if it does not reach draw temp I slowly pour it back into the middle of the pan. Doing that once or sometimes twice establishes the proper gradient and you should then be good for the day.

[Dundee Ridge]

For my first draw of the day I usually open the draw off valve at about 2 degrees early, if the temperature the climbs to above draw temp in 10 seconds or so for that day, I put in into my draw off tank, if it does not reach draw temp I slowly pour it back into the middle of the pan. Doing that once or sometimes twice establishes the proper gradient and you should then be good for the day.

The subsequent times it has happened have not been the start of the day. It seems to be happening at random with a fully established gradient.

[Pdiamond]

Have you discussed this issue with Smoky Lake at all. It seems that Jim may be able to provide you with some input as to why this is happening. I have the raised flue pan set, not with the SSR, and the one thing that works for me is that on the auto draw when it cycles to monitor the temp as it draws off. If the temp goes to high you can open the valve from more than a trickle to let more syrup out and then throttle it back to a trickle as the temp decreases. I don't know if this will help you or not but this is how mine works.

[DrTimPerkins]

When you open the valve to drawoff syrup, are you cracking it wide open (and does it open top-to-bottom or side-side) or do you crack it just a trickle, or is there an auto-draw valve?

It is a good idea (especially if using an auto-draw) to have a manual ball-valve inline (installed at the pan bottom height) on the draw-off that is always left cracked only about 1/2 open. This keeps the level of the syrup from ever going below the level of the ball (where it opens) and therefore prevents the syrup from ever being drawn down real low near the pan bottom and scorching right near the drawoff location. In short, it means if that valve is only cracked open partway, your liquid level can't drop below that point (and scorch the pan near the draw-off) during draws. LMK if that doesn't make sense and I'll try to describe more fully or draw a figure of what I mean.

The other solution is to run it really deep for a while until you figure out why this is happening.

[Dundee Ridge]

Have you discussed this issue with Smoky Lake at all. It seems that Jim may be able to provide you with some input as to why this is happening. I have the raised flue pan set, not with the SSR, and the one thing that works for me is that on the auto draw when it cycles to monitor the temp as it draws off. If the temp goes to high you can open the valve from more than a trickle to let more syrup out and then throttle it back to a trickle as the temp decreases. I don't know if this will help you or not but this is how mine works.

I just got off the phone with them. Unfortunately, I've only gotten to speak with Jimmy B. and not Jim. It felt a little like a computer technical support where you are forced to go through a whole bunch of things that you know aren't the issue; water in the float (depth would be off all the time), firewood too small (I've never heard of too hot a fire), overcooking the syrup, all my draws have been good density. It really feels to me like its an issue where the system isn't maintaining proper depth in the finish flue during my draw off... like it can't keep up for some reason. Am I drawing too fast, is the boil too violent and the surge is impeding flows, despite my best efforts am I making overcooked syrup somewhere else in the finishing pan without knowing it? You'd think I'd burn at times other than draw offs if that were the case. I hope I can figure it out because I feel like I'm slowly ruining my finish pan.


t

[Pdiamond]

Try bumping up the depth a little in the front pan a little more. Start with your draw off point in the last channel. I have the same evaporator just not the SSR I run the flu pan at 1.5 inches over the flues and my front pan at about 2.25 inches, I don't like to take chances with the syrup pan either. Keep trying to talk with Jim. Ask for him specifically.

[Dundee Ridge]

When you open the valve to drawoff syrup, are you cracking it wide open (and does it open top-to-bottom or side-side) or do you crack it just a trickle, or is there an auto-draw valve?
...
The other solution is to run it really deep for a while until you figure out why this is happening.

Definitely just partially open, and we are being even more conservative because of this issue.

A few other things to add to the equation: Because this is a left-hand draw on an SSR, the pipe that runs from the front flue to the back flue in the finishing pan drops down and comes back up to clear the rest of the piping. This is the lowest point in the whole system and I wonder if it is somehow impeding or slowing the flow. Based on color there is always a huge difference in density from the first two flues in the finishing pan, to the last two (see photo).

Even though it is new, there the front right corner of my arch appears to fall away significantly, creating a gap (photos) between the pan and the arch that is noticeable and allows sparks to come out. It's been this way since the beginning. The pans are level (not the arch). I've used an extra piece of flat gasket to try and fill that void, but the issue has occurred with and without that piece of gasket in place. The issue has also happened while running in either direction, so I am unsure if the defect is related. 212272122821229

[Super Sapper]

Is your temp probe nitered up? I have had issues with that at times.

[Dundee Ridge]

Is your temp probe nitered up? I have had issues with that at times. No. It's new.

[Pdiamond]

You need to send this photo to Angie and Jim at Smoky Lake.

[Dundee Ridge]

You need to send this photo to Angie and Jim at Smoky Lake.

I sent it to my sales guy Jimmy B yesterday morning. I made up a few e-mail addresses that I thought would be Jik Schumackers, but haven't heard anything back yet.

[Biz]

I increased my sap level to about 2" and it made a huge difference. Seems my SL 2x5 hybrid does not like sap levels less than about 1.5", due to the dynamics of the bubble columns. It seems perfectly normal and as expected now, fairly steady sap levels, and the evaporation rate did not seem to suffer. I average about 22 gph without any blower, hood, or preheater. Why it took me 3 years to figure this out I don't know :)

Dave