3/16 tubing woes.

[craigwade2005]

I’ve searched and searched with no luck. Is there a “max” length that is optimal for 3/16 tubing. I have around 750’ of tubing running down the hillside with 28 taps. It’s about 150’ vertical from the top tap to my container. I’m showing 13” of vacuum at the top (yes I know I must have leaks) It was 50 yesterday and 45 today and I have maybe 2” of sap in my IBC tote. It’s a south facing slope, although very shaded by big pines. I’m wondering if the length is too much and that is why it’s not running, or if I’m just being impatient and it’s not flowing because it’s shaded and needs to warm up more.

[Mead Maple]

Craig, I think it is just that your woods have not popped yet. The catch with 3/16 is that if there is not enough liquid flowing from the trees it cannot create optimum vacuum. Unfortunately I cannot tell you what the minimum is or would look like but I can tell you there needs to be enough in there to actually create that vacuum. With everything you have described once things begin to flow and you know that you don’t have any leaks you should see optimum performance


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[maple flats]

With good slope there seems to be no real maximum. On a lease I had one line was about 1500' long. The upper 500' were only sloped slightly, the rest was about a 45 degree drop in elevation. I got 27+ or more vacuum (1400' elevation) on high pressure days, less on bad weather low barometric days.

[Mead Maple]

Thanks for chiming in, flats. I have one line that is about 900ft and was pulling like a freight train yesterday. Granted, brand new lines on never tapped trees. I cannot wait to see what they do when the trees really open up!


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[craigwade2005]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ll try to turn on the patience and see how things progress.

[Mead Maple]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ll try to turn on the patience and see how things progress.

You will always have problems, not enough sap, not enough wood, too much sap, not enough time. It is a vicious cycle but here we all are back again for the punishment and live of maple


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[Super Sapper]

Make sure there isn't a partial block in the line from wood shavings. If your line is full pull the top tap and see if it empties quickly, if not you have a partial block. It may be that your trees need to wake up also.

[DrTimPerkins]

You will always have problems, not enough sap, not enough wood, too much sap, not enough time. It is a vicious cycle but here we all are back again for the punishment and live of maple

That is one of the weird things about sugaring. Producers sit and wonder when the sap when run, then when it is coming in, they wonder when it'll stop. As soon as it does, they wonder when it'll start again. :confused:

[gbeneke]

I think I would just tap a tree near your line and put in a test drop, if it runs well and you line doesn’t, you’ve got a plug or a leak.

[sg5054]

[QUOTE=Mead Maple;379651]You will always have problems, not enough sap, not enough wood, too much sap, not enough time. It is a vicious cycle but here we all are back again for the punishment and live of maple

STUPID TREES......:lol:

[Tom.Edgecomb]

The key to 3/16 is to keep it tight and have good cleaning practices. Fix the leak(s) and it performs well, when the sap is flowing. I installed a hybrid system with 3/16 and a shurflo to help the trees at the bottom of the slope and on low flow days. We have 235 taps on 11000 feet of 3/16 and 800’ of 3/4 mainline and have 21” of vacuum at the end of mainline on very little flow and 24+ on good days. 4 of our lines are over 1000’ and have max vacuum at the top. Good luck!!

[Mead Maple]

[QUOTE=Mead Maple;379651]You will always have problems, not enough sap, not enough wood, too much sap, not enough time. It is a vicious cycle but here we all are back again for the punishment and live of maple

STUPID TREES......:lol:

Exactly.

Then we run back and tell them sorry we didn’t mean it😂


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[springhillsmaple]

I agree that it is worth lookin not just for leaks, but for plugs made of shavings on the uphill side of a t. After finding a few plugs recently, we spent two days walking lines eyeballing each t. We found about 15 plugs in 2500 taps. Totally worth the effort since one plug can stop 25 taps from flowing at all.

[maple flats]

If it is all new fittings and tubing and you have no drill shavings plugging the fittings I think you just need to let the trees fully wake up. Just guessing, but 2" deep in the IBC tote is more than you might think on 28 taps in marginal sap flow. On my mechanical vacuum the last 2 days I got very little and I have 26" of vacuum, on Monday I got lots more.
Check for plugging at fittings, if none, just give it time.

[maple flats]

After the season you need to clean the tubing, there are several threads on here about that. I have about 250 taps on 3/16 and they do well. It takes work however. The first year it is rather easy, I clean after the season, in year 2 I change the taps, all tees and any connectors in the lateral. If you don't do all of that you will be really disappointed in year 2 and even worse in year 3.

[Mead Maple]

Flats just curious, since there is ongoing debate about cleaning solution and procedures, what are you using? Not looking for a lengthy reply just the solution you use and what method


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[DrTimPerkins]

Clorox works well for sanitizing 3/16" (or 5/16") tubing. Unfortunately the squirrels like it too. The only cleaning we do is for areas for research. We've now retrained all the squirrels in this area to like maple tubing components (3/16" tubing, fittings, saddles, mainline). Still struggling to get our vacuum up in those sections, some of which we've already fixed 1-2 times. As soon as this research is done this spring, all 3/16" tubing will come out of the woods.

If we HAD to keep using 3/16" tubing, we'd NOT use regular chlorine bleach. It does work very well as a sanitizer, but causes too many squirrel/vacuum problems.

21111

[hansel]

Never used tubing, but considering 3/16 next year that I would take down after each season. Is squirrel damage typically around where the tubing contacts trees? I have a bunch of old garden hose and thought maybe that I could cut up some of that and cover tubing there if that was most frequently damaged. I don't plan on getting a tubing tool; so, I would want to minimize needed repairs.

[christopherh]

I have 8 runs of 3/16th tubing. 1st year was great, second year chased many clogs. This year I filled lines with hypochlorite and let soak for a couple weeks, then flushed intensely with very hot water. I do removed my lines every year, so it wasn’t difficult to do. I’m very happy with the results.

[Mead Maple]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200304/03e09390e7c253b5356892dd90610db8.jpg

Certainly happy with the results the 3/16 has given me thus far!


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[Cody]

4th year on 3/16 lines, haven’t cleaned them yet. Keep them tight. Put in new taps every season. If drop lines get dirty we replace them even sections of tubing between trees if they look black or dirty. Had two plugs so far in 4 seasons. Pull taps the day after we stop collecting. Don’t put taps in holder, just let them hang loose. Works for us. The last three seasons averaged half gallon of syrup per tap, last year a little better.

[Mead Maple]

4th year on 3/16 lines, haven’t cleaned them yet. Keep them tight. Put in new taps every season. If drop lines get dirty we replace them even sections of tubing between trees if they look black or dirty. Had two plugs so far in 4 seasons. Pull taps the day after we stop collecting. Don’t put taps in holder, just let them hang loose. Works for us. The last three seasons averaged half gallon of syrup per tap, last year a little better.

Wow no kidding. Well that is certainly a testament to bare bones running!


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[Cody]

Ya no bs. But watch for leaks daily. Walk mainline if it looks like vacuum leak or not moving climb hill and inspect. Squirrels or deer are not very good helpers.

[Cody]

We check3/16 line running into mainline, to clarify my last post.

[Mead Maple]

That’s great. We did a line check the other night to find a coyote had chewed the line, not a little critter. Luckily only lost a half dozen upper taps. But today pull every bit of 28hg on the gauges


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[Dundee Ridge]

I run all 3/16 on gravity with lengths up to 1000' per run, and drops up to 400' per run. 25 taps per run max. Thsi is only my second year tapping, but last year and so far this year, I've comperable sap to others in my region running vac pumps. A lot of sugar makers around me haven't thawed out yet this year, but I'm on a south facing hill and have already collected about 600 gallons on 150 taps.

I hear of lots of people who try 3/16 ripping it out because they think its no good. They aren't gettinh as much sap as they want, and blame the 3/16. They say its clogging, or can't handle the volume. I think it's jsut easy to blame the "new" thing.

[DrTimPerkins]

Like 5/16" tubing, 3/16" tubing has certain issues that need to be dealt with. The first year 3/16" performs very well, less so the 2nd year, by the 3rd and 4th years, if no remediative action is taken, yield will below that of 5/16" tubing in the same setting. The two biggies for 3/16" tubing are sanitation and clogging (related in some way). Sanitation is solved in the same manner as in 5/16" tubing -- use of new spouts, use of CV spouts, replacing of drops periodically, or sanitizing lines with some type of cleaner. Both Cornell and UVM PMRC have measured in controlled studies this same effect. Clogging is addressed by (at minimum) flushing out tubing with water or by using some type of sanitizer (followed by rinsing or allowing the first run of sap to flow on the ground) or by changing every fitting (tees, unions, saddles) every third year to remove areas where clogs stop the flow of sap.

Nothing wrong with 3/16" tubing as long as it is managed properly.

[Cody]

As Dr. Tim says. No system is set it and forget it, especially 3/16. One leak can take away from 25 trees. Yes it is more leg work. But lol at the bright side, good for your heart. :D

[Mead Maple]

Like 5/16" tubing, 3/16" tubing has certain issues that need to be dealt with. The first year 3/16" performs very well, less so the 2nd year, by the 3rd and 4th years, if no remediative action is taken, yield will below that of 5/16" tubing in the same setting. The two biggies for 3/16" tubing are sanitation and clogging (related in some way). Sanitation is solved in the same manner as in 5/16" tubing -- use of new spouts, use of CV spouts, replacing of drops periodically, or sanitizing lines with some type of cleaner. Both Cornell and UVM PMRC have measured in controlled studies this same effect. Clogging is addressed by (at minimum) flushing out tubing with water or by using some type of sanitizer (followed by rinsing or allowing the first run of sap to flow on the ground) or by changing every fitting (tees, unions, saddles) every third year to remove areas where clogs stop the flow of sap.

Nothing wrong with 3/16" tubing as long as it is managed properly.

Dr Tim, what is the life expectancy of the 3/16 line in general, not counting drops Ts fittings etc. and since you have been nice enough to donate so much line to the timber tigers by means of baiting them with Clorox, what is the preferred cleaning solution to best mitigate that.

(Sorry for the fun poking, but since I have joined the line repair crew myself I don’t mind having fun with it)


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[Ridge Creek]

We started using Hydroxysan to clean our lines. It’s a peracedic (sp) acid, hydrogen peroxide blend designed to sanitize as well as dissolving bio film. 30 second contact time. Designed for food processing industry, also organic certified. What I really like is you use a test kit to be sure the sanitizer has been thoroughly flushed before starting collecting.

[minehart gap]

Length of line: I have several laterals that are about 1500' in length but have 100'+ in elevation change. Lots of vacuum.

Sanitation: I spoke with my sanitarian during inspection this year and asked about using a cheap vodka or whiskey to clean lines. His response was as long as it is food, it is food grade. I still need to use sanitizer after but I think I will try it as a cleaner. My reasoning is the residue. With most cleaners leaving behind a salty residue, alcohol will in theory, leave behind a water residue and it by nature kills bacteria.

Creating vacuum with small flows: at several locations on a lateral, I make the lateral move sap uphill sometimes as little as 6" up. Makes the columns form and that is what creates the vacuum. Just make sure that you are 10' in elevation above the outlet.