RO to keep up with my Storage and Evaporator

[bryankloos]

Hi all,

While I’m happy with my little 4x150 RO, it takes me 20+ hours to run through the sap in my 275 gallon storage tank.

I’m wondering what type of system I would need to be able to keep up with my Mason 2x4XL. I can get about 12 gph through the evaporator when I’m firing hot. I’d love to have an RO that can keep up with the boil.

As a diy guy, I’m happy to build.

I guess I’m looking at a 4x40 for my needs?

I have 70 taps on vac and seem to be collecting 275+ gallons every 2 days with good runs.

I like to boil when the 275 IBC is close to full...

Thoughts?

Bryan

[ecolbeck]

An RB15 or RB20 from RO Bucket would likely keep up with your 2x4 although it would probably only concentrate from 2 to 4 percent at best at that rate. If you want greater concentration and high speeds then the 4x40 is probably a better bet.

[VT_K9]

There are a couple of RO options. You can build your own. I haven't done it and don't know much here. You cold get the RO bucket. It seems popular and again no experience. I have a CDL Hobby 250 and am moving to a CDL 600.

With the CDL Hobby 250 it will remove 50% of the water from 250 gallons of sap per hour. That is putting it in simple terms. What you need to know is whatever the RO is rated for (ie 250 gallons) you will NEED that much permeate (water) to clean it.

With your sap volume you'd benefit from a 100-125 gallon per hour RO similar to the Hobby from CDL. I am not familiar with other brands but in the CDL system for 125 will allow you to remove 50% of your water in one pass. You may be able to recirculate the sap a little to increase the sugar content, but I would not go above 8%. Your evaporator may prefer a max %, our Leader WSE 2x6 did not like it above 7-8% (darker syrup).

Pick up another tote to store your permeate. You can draw the sap out of your current 275 gallon tote. If the RO doesn't "keep up" with your evaporator then you could start the RO a little early. On the CDL you could cycle the 275 gallon tote through it and when the supply tote runs out the RO will shut off (you should have about 132.5 gallons of concentrate (sap) and 132.5 gallons of permeate (if you had a full tote).

I'm not sure if that helps answer your question, but it's a start to a wonderful day of sap running here.

Mike

[bryankloos]

So, in an ideal world (not sure this exists) I’d like to go from 1.5% to 6+% with 12gph concentrate.
This would be ideal.

My 4x150 gets me over 6% but it takes me 20 hours to concentrate my 275 gallons.

[maple marc]

Mike, I was interested in your comment that your WSE 2x6 "did not like it above 7-8%." I have the same evaporator, and occasionally have issues with temperatures surging at draw-off. I REALLY had trouble this week when I had some 4% sap from skimming ice out of my buckets. Temperatures would suddenly surge from 4 degrees to 9 degrees at draw off, resulting in syrup that was way over my target brix. Then I had to draw as much light syrup off to try to average it out. A real pain. I'm wondering how you handle this, and is this what you mean when you say your 2x6 didn't like it? I can't imagine boiling 8%!
Thanks,
Marc

[ecolbeck]

So, in an ideal world (not sure this exists) I’d like to go from 1.5% to 6+% with 12gph concentrate.
This would be ideal.

My 4x150 gets me over 6% but it takes me 20 hours to concentrate my 275 gallons.

I would consult Carl at ROBucket and see if he thinks his products can meet that criteria. There are ROs that will definitely do what you want, its just a question of how much money you want to spend.

[bryankloos]

I"ll ping Carl, or see if he replies to this thread.o
I have a 4x150 which like I mentioned gets me to the 6% I want but takes almost 24 hours...
Problem is the window to boil may be good, but as we all know with jobs and kids and wives things can change. I've had times when I've started the RO, and then wished I hadn't as something popped up and I was conflicted with scheduling or letting concentrate sit 24 hours for the next day.
That's why I want to be able to RO on the fly, as I'm setting up for the days boil.

I'm thinking a single post 4x40 with a fair amount of recirculation could get the job done, but the technical design specs are beyond me.

I'll read and study some more and come back with some initial thoughts.

Thanks All.

[ecolbeck]

Next Generation Maple and CDL have hobby spec single post ROs.

In my situation, I have decided that some RO is better than none. My RO can't keep up with my evaporator but 20 gallons of permeate is better than none.....

[bryankloos]

Another day boiling after 24 hours ROing and I’m really starting to wish I had a bigger RO.

I’m going to ask for some help/guidance from the pros here to point me in the right direction.

The goal is to take my 1.3-1.5% sap to 8+% with an output of 12gph.

Seems this would be about a 60gph unit with recirculating. Is this correct?

If so, what should I look at as far as pump/motor and membrane.

I see a few other great DIY builds here that I can pull particulars from but need a bit of help getting my head around the basic needs for this RO.

Anyone care to take a stab at it while I continue to read up?

All help is appreciated.

Thanks

Bryan

[barnbc76]

I have basically an equivalent to the second most efficient RO bucket, 2-400gpd membranes w/aquatech 8800. I go from 2% to 4% in one pass but it struggles to go much pass 6% (recirculating) it takes about twice the time as it does to go from 2%-4%. While I'm sure having 3 membranes would reduce the time and take it closer to 7-8% I'm not sure how quickly it would do. Others have experience I'm sure but I dont know how long it would take. I almost bought a 3rd for this year but I reached my budget limit already.

[VT_K9]

Marc,

I hit you with a PM with details. I had similar experiences with Temp changes. But on topic for the post I found the syrup tended to be a little darker at higher concentrations and at the recommendation of a CDL rep the following year I ran the concentration lower and feel that contributed to a tad lighter syrup. Plus there is a reference to a range of concentration in a recent post on this Maple Trader. I don't recall the specific post, but it was in the last couple of weeks.

Mike

[VT_K9]

So, in an ideal world (not sure this exists) I’d like to go from 1.5% to 6+% with 12gph concentrate.
This would be ideal.

My 4x150 gets me over 6% but it takes me 20 hours to concentrate my 275 gallons.

In my case we would process your 275 gallons to 137.5 (or so) gallons in just over one hour. We would double, maybe a tase more, the sugar content to 3-4%. Then in the 30-45 minute take that 137.5 (or so) gallons to 68.75 (or so) gallons with 8%. You could change the setting to process quicker and have less concentration. Then you are boiling somewhere around 60-75 gallons around 6%. Then you have to clean the machine and this can be done while finishing your boiling and takes about 30-40 minutes. The truth left behind is you will have 200-215 gallons (using the above example). With a 250 gah RO you should have 250 gallons of permeate to clean at a minimum. Maybe you could up your 275, maybe you could save permeate from multiple sessions to make up for the lack of 50 gallons of permeate.

Mike

PS downside to a larger RO is you need enough sap...that was a partial concern while buying the 250 (vs a 125). Then when we first ran it I was concerned we went too big and should have used the 125...nope worked out very good. Now we have a 600 gah unit and are a little shy for running it. Need to get to the woods tomorrow to add more taps. I did spread word to a few friends I would be willing to buy sap this year. Good thing our new 3X10 boils as fast as our 2x6 with 250 gph RO.

[bryankloos]

VT-K9, what RO are you running?

I was looking at Jeremy's build, and thinking something similar may be good for my needs.

I'm slow wondering about increasing my 4x150 to a 4x400 but that would involve new membranes, housings, and presumably a new pump as my aquatek 8852 is only rated at 200gpd. At that point, it may be best to sell my current rig and start fresh.

With these crazy runs in CT this past week, having something bigger would surely help!

[carls47807]

Hey Bryan, email me at sales@therobucket.com. I might be able to get you those rates. Thanks! Carl


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[bigblazer]

So, in an ideal world (not sure this exists) I’d like to go from 1.5% to 6+% with 12gph concentrate.
This would be ideal.

My 4x150 gets me over 6% but it takes me 20 hours to concentrate my 275 gallons.


I home built an RO this spring and ran it for the first time this weekend. It is a single 4x40 with a 240gph procon, a 1hp motor and a 16gpm sprinkler pump feeding the filter from a tote. I ran it for 10 hours with 1% sap in and 8% out @200psi on a new MES membrane. Flow on the permeate was .5 gpm and .2 gpm on the concentrate, with the recirc valve . This matched my 2x5 smoky lake divided pan perfectly @ 12 gph, as the head tank level rarely fluctuated. So far I have been happy with the results. With a little shopping all the parts can be had reasonably and save you a lot of money.