Tap holes drying out.

[Jim Foster]

I've read on this site both that early drilled tap holes do and don't dry up in a short amount of time. And while I live in a completely different area of the world than you guys do, a lot dryer ( the great American desert) almost all of the holes I drilled Jan 2nd have gone dry. Never ran sap either. Spiles with plastic hose to buckets, Gravity. Today I drilled holes in new trees and nearly every one was dripping. Went back to the early drilled trees, drilled new holes and most of them started dripping. Not exactly how you're supposed to do it but..... All my trees are Box Elder as Maple are scarce here.

Jim

[old tom]

Isn't a Box Elder in the Maple family? Should be the same unless its a different tree in the desert country.

[Pdiamond]

True name for a Box Elder is an Ash Leafed Maple. They are quite tapable, usually just a lower sugar content.

[Woody77]

They make good sugar but dont have the same maple flavor. And as far as re taping dont worry they are a very tough tree. The syrup reminds me of honey.

[tpathoulas]

When I first was introduced to making maple syrup, I started with Box Elders. They were/are very prevalent on my property. They poured sap. My boys were so sick of hauling sap I figured this would only last a couple of years. I never had any holes dry up before we were sick of hauling. It does make a nice syrup. Very sweet almost nutty flavor. Not as strong of maple flavor but the syrup tastes better than a broken branch smells. It took us about 80-90 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. As our addiction grew we moved on to Sugar Maples.

[Jim Foster]

Oh, the flavor of our Box Elder is excellent! Everyone that's sampled what I made last year were surprised at the taste and I have more people interested in buying it than I can make. Last year I had 12 taps or so, this year around 130. Have the fever!!

Jim

[DrTimPerkins]

... almost all of the holes I drilled Jan 2nd have gone dry.

So about 6 weeks. That is normal. What type of sanitation were you using for your spouts and tubing (how'd you clean them or did you use new spouts)?

[Sugarmaker]

I was thinking the same as Dr Perkins. 6 weeks is all I would expect. Now the not running part. We need to review a little more. Are you drilling approx 21.5 to 2 inches deep? spout is set gently with no tree splitting? have freezing and thawing cycles to start and stop the flows? You should be getting sap I think Although I know nothing about the box elder. I would suggest you sell every thing and move to Albion PA! I will then act as a enabler for you to spend lots of money on shiney syrup stuff and make some good maple syrup.
Regards,
Chris

[blissville maples]

I don't know what your weather is like but many people are tapping too early. You should not be tapping when night temps are consistenly single digits and teens, unless you have 100,000 taps. Your first 4-6 weeks are prime after that flow goes down, I don't care what anyone says tree biology here is the same as tree biology anywhere!! Nothing can prevent this even the beloved CVS, if tapholes ran forever the tree would never heal!!

Understand this- tap Holes close up it's that simple. Be careful who you listen to. Heard one guy talking a 14-16 week old taphole producing- yeah ok producing what a cup per tap- that's not producing sorry that's dreaming and I don't believe it for a minute. I drill mid February and by end of May they are starting to heal with new cambium growth in taphole so you tell me if they run solid for @6 weeks?? By week 8-9 I've gone from 1200-1400 gallons per day per tank to 600-700, likely from tapholes aging and plugging.

Like I said be careful, when money is involved people will say anything. Experience is the best policy not a study on paper. As far as research if it's not reproducible time and time again then it's not credible.

Not sure about box elder but on sugars you'll get a solid 4 weeks of 100% capacity on vaccum. .....near 75% for the next 2 weeks, then you will lose really quick as temps start hitting the 50s

It sounds as if you tapped too early if you didn't get any sap. When there's mud the sap is running! Buckets don't last but a few weeks so timing is crucial.

[maple flats]

On gravity tap holes will usually dry up in about 6 weeks if using new taps and tubing or properly cleaned tubing and new taps. On high vacuum taps can go as long as 3-3.5 months, sometimes even 4 months, still wet but not much flow. Again, with good sanitation and high vacuum (over 25").

[blissville maples]

On gravity tap holes will usually dry up in about 6 weeks if using new taps and tubing or properly cleaned tubing and new taps. On high vacuum taps can go as long as 3-3.5 months, sometimes even 4 months, still wet but not much flow. Again, with good sanitation and high vacuum (over 25").


Finally someone has mentioned the other half of the equation with a 12-16 week old taphole- very little flow. I think when we talk about how long a taphole stays open we need to stop trying to support the CV misconception.

What's the point of mentioning week 12 and beyond?? There is no production beyond 12 weeks. Sometimes week 10 really starts to slow down. I'll say it now and I'll say it again there nothing to talk about when your getting for example 300 gallons on 1000 taps and it's 1% garbage sap!

Give the folks an honest answer about what they need to know, not what the check valves show- all tapholes are wet at week 14 regardless of spout has nothing to do with the CVS. What I mean is tell them when their best production will be, which is week 0-6 regardless of methods. If you tell someone they can see 4 months on a taphole they will be tapping in December and then wonder why they have no sap in middle of March when it's primetime.

Listen folks don't count on a taphole producing for 12-14 weeks, it doesn't happen. It takes 40-60 gallons of sap to make a gallon of syrup not three cups.

[DrTimPerkins]

Finally someone has mentioned the other half of the equation with a 12-16 week old taphole- very little flow. I think when we talk about how long a taphole stays open we need to stop trying to support the CV misconception.

Must be spring...some things seem to repeat themselves each year.

Would that be the misconception of 36 separate studies done over 10 years by scientists from VT, NY, and Qbc that show that CVs work?

20889

Would that be the misconception that we always tap starting mid-January each year and still make good syrup right up through mid-April (and we stop as soon as it turns to commercial syrup)?

Would that be the misconception that we average 0.6 gal/tap (6.5 lbs/tap) by doing that and are using primarily CVs (the only place we don't is if we're doing research projects where we want to compare other things not involving CVs)?

20892

Research (again, in several places over several years of study) has shown that tapping early (with vacuum and very good sanitation) almost always results in higher yields than tapping late as long as you are committed to catching and processing any of the early sap flows. Tim Wilmot did a lot of that work back 12 yrs ago, and Joe Orifice (formerly of Cornell Uihlein) repeated it and found exactly the same results.

20886

Say whatever you like. For the rest of the crowd...a reminder that it is very easy to put someone on the "Ignore" list so you don't need to view their posts. I highly recommend it.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Must be spring...some things seem to repeat themselves each year.

Would that be the misconception of 36 separate studies done over 10 years by scientists from VT, NY, and Qbc that show that CVs work?

20889

Would that be the misconception that we always tap starting mid-January each year and still make good syrup right up through mid-April (and we stop as soon as it turns to commercial syrup)?

Would that be the misconception that we average 0.6 gal/tap (6.5 lbs/tap) by doing that and are using primarily CVs (the only place we don't is if we're doing research projects where we want to compare other things not involving CVs)?

Research (again, in several places over several years of study) has shown that tapping early (with vacuum and very good sanitation) almost always results in higher yields than tapping late as long as you are committed to catching and processing any of the early sap flows. Tim Wilmot did a lot of that work back 12 yrs ago, and Joe Orifice (formerly of Cornell Uihlein) repeated it and found exactly the same results.

20886

Say whatever you like. For the rest of the crowd...a reminder that it is very easy to put someone on the "Ignore" list so you don't need to view their posts. I highly recommend it. Exactly. I was going to respond, but figured it really wasn't worth my time. Was even going to put a video up I took last year of 13 week old tapholes running 2000gph on our best run of the year in which we processed over 70,000 gallons of sap in the five day run(over 8gpt). Again, I didn't figure it was worth my time. I've always approached my livelihood with an open mind. Always willing to learn more. Always trying to do better. I guess some people don't have that same mindset. Imo, if you're not willing to better yourself, then you're stuck in a rut. There's always more to learn, especially in this industry.
Neil

[30AcreWoods]

Yes, I agree. I'm a research engineer. Always trying to improve. Collect data. Peer review. Publish. Then find the next place to learn and improve. Be brave and accept that we don't know all the answers and can always learn more.

[Jim Foster]

Dr. Tim, I am using copper spiles I made from electrical connectors, (It works, just not the best deal but all I could afford this year.) drilled out, soaked in Clorox overnite, washed with soap and rinsed good. New plastic hose. Clean drill bit. Used all the cautions. Not splitting the wood when tapping them in. Drilling the holes 2" or so. Weather was anywhere from single digit to 30 at night. 30's to 50's daytime. But realize now that the tree was frozen early on here too. Tapped Sat and Sunday and sap was running but really only a short time as I didn't have enough to gather on 40 buckets to even be worth my time. Temps the days I tapped last that had sap running was 47-11, 52-22, and 54-24. But cooled off since then and too cold to run for a few moere days now.

Jim

[Jim Foster]

LOL! Not moving from my gun loving state.... The tap holes are 2" or a little more deep. No splitting of wood. A couple taps leaked a bit but not much. My spiles are home made and not what I want but all I have this year. And as you mentioned, 6 weeks of our cold dry weather pretty much screwed my tapping. I'll learn. Thanks,

Jim

[blissville maples]

You can say what you would like about how I and many others feel. Many of whom.arent even on this site.

Dr Tim I know a guy who does just as good without CVS(2200 gals on 3500 taps and so old fashioned never taps until march) so if he used them he would make a gal per tap? Do you think if you stopped using them youd be closer to .4 per tap??

How come they don't work for everyone? Are we using them wrong or backwards? Is it because we're not sitting at 2000 or whatever feet elevation? If so then they only work for a select few? You made them.you should be able to explain why this is the case?

What the deal? We're not just idiot sugarmakers rubbing spores all over our spouts before we install them!! Haha

I mean what do you think folks making this up just to disagree- that's what it seems to me

How come I saw CVS slow down last year after 9 weeks?

My small Bush has 600 taps every tree had a CV last year!! Absolutely no difference than the previous 4 years and I even improved a major lowspot in mainline that was an issue causing prolonged ice jams.........

Whatever I guess everyone needs to sleep in the same bed or don't be on the site- ignore button give me a break

[blissville maples]

Ya know Dr time the bottom line is if they are that great they should work for EVERYONE all the time hands down no questions asked no room to debate, not just some....and this just isn't the case sorry I'm not the only one who notices!

I guess you'll have to excuse those of us who have paid 2x for spouts and have seen no difference, really doesn't make one that happy. If I told you something and all this research backs it up, and you tried it and tried it again and saw no difference what would you think and say? Seriously

[BAP]

You can say what you would like about how I and many others feel. Many of whom.arent even on this site.

Dr Tim I know a guy who does just as good without CVS(2200 gals on 3500 taps and so old fashioned never taps until march) so if he used them he would make a gal per tap? Do you think if you stopped using them youd be closer to .4 per tap??

How come they don't work for everyone? Are we using them wrong or backwards? Is it because we're not sitting at 2000 or whatever feet elevation? If so then they only work for a select few? You made them.you should be able to explain why this is the case?

What the deal? We're not just idiot sugarmakers rubbing spores all over our spouts before we install them!! Haha

I mean what do you think folks making this up just to disagree- that's what it seems to me

How come I saw CVS slow down last year after 9 weeks?

My small Bush has 600 taps every tree had a CV last year!! Absolutely no difference than the previous 4 years and I even improved a major lowspot in mainline that was an issue causing prolonged ice jams.........

Whatever I guess everyone needs to sleep in the same bed or don't be on the site- ignore button give me a break
You need to take a chill pill and be more friendly with your responses. No need to be making personal attacks on Dr Perkins or others on here. If you don’t like a product or the results of a study, that’s your prerogative, but stop the personal attacks. This is a friendly forum, not a bashing forum. If you can’t accept that, then maybe you should move on.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hi Folks...

In case you're wondering why I don't respond to this...it is because I don't see the posts. Blissville is on my "ignore" list (highly recommended). I can see that he posted, but not the contents. I don't need to see it because has been the same exact thing every year and it is a complete waste of time and energy to attempt to have a reasonable exchange with folks like this. If you don't like CVs, don't buy them and don't use them -- it's that simple. Over 35 research studies at several stations have shown time and again that they work, but the results will vary somewhat depending upon the individual circumstances (age of tubing, vacuum level, vacuum management, releaser type, etc).

Folks who complain this like are going to complain...in fact, when CVs first came out, the people who complained about problems the most were those who never used them (how they had problems with them when they never tried them I fail to comprehend). There were advertisements placed in maple publications putting them down even before they were on sale. Haters gotta hate...trolls gotta troll. At some point you have to just stop feeding the trolls and they go away. Life goes on quite nicely without them.

TP

[Mark]

Cognitive dissonance

[maple flats]

While I likely should I don't ignore anyone's posts. I do at times let them slide.
Back when I said the CV taps aften ran 3.5-4 months Still wet, that was still wet as I pulled the taps, 2-3 weeks after I finished collecting sap. That was from tapping before Jan 20 and pulling taps mid to late May. My latest ever boil was 4/20 or 21 and I only once boiled sap that was under 1.6%. My typical season average is between 1.9 and 2.1%, my extreme spread has ranged between 1.6 and 2.4%. The only season I ever was below that was in 2017 (if memory serves me, I'm not near my production book). That season my highest 1 day % was 2.0% and it was only 1 day, it went down from there. From my trees my low that season I believe was 1.4% (but my season average was very slightly over 1.6%) but on my last boil I actually bought 840 gal of 1.0% but told them I would not buy anymore. It still made great tasting dark.
If you choose not to use CV taps that's ok, but there is no need to do your best to sour every new comer or those interested in experimenting to try to maximize their production. While I don't have the numbers in my head, for earlier years, using CV taps I made .52 GPT in '18 and .48 GPT in '19, on 26-27" vacuum. By the way, the '19 figure includes about 40% of my taps on 3/16 laterals, pulling from below the mainlines. To get that I change taps, tees and connectors in the 3/16 every season and new drops after 3 seasons . For good production you must keep the vacuum high, fix leaks every time the vacuum drops (on mine, I run 26-27", every time it falls to 25" we find and fix the leaks) and you must clean the tubing post season.

[Ed R]

To the o.p. Jim; In the past I've had to trim the limbs on some of the silver and red maples in my yard during December and they did not bleed a drop of sap while an adjacent sugar maple I trimmed just poured sap out through the spring. When I eventually tapped the trees during the typical spring season (late Feb) both the soft maples and sugar maples ran well. I don't think I could make any fall syrup here using those soft maples. So it might not be tap hole drying (since they never ran) that is the issue but rather tree physiology, weather/climate that is the issue.

[Jim Foster]

To the o.p. Jim; In the past I've had to trim the limbs on some of the silver and red maples in my yard during December and they did not bleed a drop of sap while an adjacent sugar maple I trimmed just poured sap out through the spring. When I eventually tapped the trees during the typical spring season (late Feb) both the soft maples and sugar maples ran well. I don't think I could make any fall syrup here using those soft maples. So it might not be tap hole drying (since they never ran) that is the issue but rather tree physiology, weather/climate that is the issue.

Thanks. Hoping the taps I bored earlier and abandoned, don't seep bad...

Jim

[220 maple]

Dr. Tim, I am using copper spiles I made from electrical connectors, (It works, just not the best deal but all I could afford this year.) drilled out, soaked in Clorox overnite, washed with soap and rinsed good. New plastic hose. Clean drill bit. Used all the cautions. Not splitting the wood when tapping them in. Drilling the holes 2" or so. Weather was anywhere from single digit to 30 at night. 30's to 50's daytime. But realize now that the tree was frozen early on here too. Tapped Sat and Sunday and sap was running but really only a short time as I didn't have enough to gather on 40 buckets to even be worth my time. Temps the days I tapped last that had sap running was 47-11, 52-22, and 54-24. But cooled off since then and too cold to run for a few moere days now.

JimI cringle when ever I read someone is using copper pipe for spiles! In the 60's the telephone guys wanted to cut two water poplar trees on the neighbor's property, trees had grown up into the telephone line, neighbor lady said no, so they left, my dad said so what the trees will die, the telephone linemen had driven a copper nail in them! One time I gave a friend of mine a copper steeple, he had asked his neighbor if he could cut a tree so he could see to get out of his driveway onto the highway landowner said no, oddly the tree died anyway? I don't thick copper and trees are friends?

[Jim Foster]

I cringle when ever I read someone is using copper pipe for spiles! In the 60's the telephone guys wanted to cut two water poplar trees on the neighbor's property, trees had grown up into the telephone line, neighbor lady said no, so they left, my dad said so what the trees will die, the telephone linemen had driven a copper nail in them! One time I gave a friend of mine a copper steeple, he had asked his neighbor if he could cut a tree so he could see to get out of his driveway onto the highway landowner said no, oddly the tree died anyway? I don't thick copper and trees are friends?

Guess I never heard anything bad about copper mixed with trees. Time will tell I guess.

Jim

[blissville maples]

Hi Folks...

In case you're wondering why I don't respond to this...it is because I don't see the posts. Blissville is on my "ignore" list (highly recommended). I can see that he posted, but not the contents. I don't need to see it because has been the same exact thing every year and it is a complete waste of time and energy to attempt to have a reasonable exchange with folks like this. If you don't like CVs, don't buy them and don't use them -- it's that simple. Over 35 research studies at several stations have shown time and again that they work, but the results will vary somewhat depending upon the individual circumstances (age of tubing, vacuum level, vacuum management, releaser type, etc).

Folks who complain this like are going to complain...in fact, when CVs first came out, the people who complained about problems the most were those who never used them (how they had problems with them when they never tried them I fail to comprehend). There were advertisements placed in maple publications putting them down even before they were on sale. Haters gotta hate...trolls gotta troll. At some point you have to just stop feeding the trolls and they go away. Life goes on quite nicely without them.

TP


It's funny how we live in a world where if you don't like what someone says and it contradicts the deceitful information you give others you ignore them, happens alot in washington too.

So dr Tim- are we all lying that cvs don't work for us? Absolutely not. I asked a simple question how come you cannot answer it seems like you should have all the answers for this you have answers for everything else

Are west the wrong elevation, what's the scoop? They made absolutely no difference the 3 times I used them how come- why can you not answer this, I mean you created them. Many people see no difference with them and we're not just trying to disagree i have way better things to do. I just get extremely upset when people try to pad their pockets with boatloads of money from people who work hard for it when something has a many discrepancies as the cvs. There alot of deceit on this country don't ever forget that and it's all started by money!!! After all money is the most evil thing in the world people steal lie cheat and kill for it just to simply have a better social status and be better than their neighbors.

I don't chill out when someone is portraying how good something is when there are plenty of other results that show otherwise buy mini sugar makers have been doing this for years. Furthermore mr. Perkins has used a lot of money and been paid to boot to do all this research I doubt if penny has come out of his pocket. so he plays in the woods a little with all this money he's been given develops a half-ast device which really only works on paper patents a product and is making boatloads of money off it at the expense of everybody else. And everybody's happy about this??? Listen this is maple sugaring we're not putting men on the moon just about anybody with some common sense could be given thousands of dollars and come up with the results he has it would be very hard.

You know furthermore maple sugaring is not rocket science pretty much anyone with some common sense, time and money could come up with the results dr Tim has, were just all working day jobs that's all....

Again- are we all lying that cvs did not outperform other spouts in our sugarbushes? Absolutely not, i have better things to do then make up s*** and lie. I just have a real problem with a lot of things to go on in this world and people like me are called checks and balances

Hey don't forget the ignore button is at the bottom of the page for all you Democrats who can only have it your way!!
over the years I have decided to not castrate myself and tell things like they are, someone has to otherwise we'll all be puppets on strings controlled by one body!!

Stand up for yourself folks, even the best experiments and scientist have been wrong.

[blissville maples]

Trolls trolls trolls.... seriously can you say anything stupider.....is that seriously what you call someone who disagree with you and you can't turn them?

Get a life I'm not a troll I'm the opposition!!
Sorry you don't like it
Sorry this isn't one sided
Sorry that they didn't work for me
Sorry that I spent an extra 1000 dollars on them in 6years
Sorry they dont work than an .18 spout.

I could go on and other also.....

Stop saying the rhetoric like i have 16 week old tapoles still producing....oh buy a cv and tap in december and wait for 5 gallon of sap in january.

You have all been tricked into being told get the early runs buy CVS!! What early run? The 1000 gallons of sap you got in january on 10ktaps is that seriously why you went to cvs.? You call that a run? It's sap but is not a run...that will happen in march!

[saphound]

Hey 'yall..haven't posted in a while. Had to take last year off due to a bad car accident. Anyway, I tried those clear 5/16 CV taps a couple years ago. They worked good but my only complaint was most of them broke when I tried to get them out. Seems like its a more brittle plastic, the black ones have never broke. I had to drill them again with the same bit to get the plastic out of the tree. This was a couple dozen I bought off ebay...I don't remember who made them. Anyone else had that problem?

[ChaskaSap]

This is my first year doing this and have 29 of those clear jobbies tapped. Didn't even consider this would be an issue. Although I'm just lightly finger twisting them into place. Hoping that technique reduces my chances of breakage...fingers crossed!

[DrTimPerkins]

If a plastic spout breaks (any type) off while you're pulling it, unless you can easily grab onto it with a pair of pliers and pull it out without causing damage, either just leave it in, or if the broken piece sticks out beyond the tree, just tap it in further until it is flush with the trunk. The small piece of plastic left in the tree won't hurt anything and is better than drilling the hole out bigger. The hole in the tree NEVER fills in...it is there until the tree dies and the wood rots, so having a piece of plastic there isn't going to hurt it (and won't be a problem if you hit it with a chainsaw or happen to drill into that exact area again).

All types of polycarbonate (clear, sometimes tinted) spouts "stick" in trees better than the nylon spouts do. The advantage of this is less frost heaving and less leakage. The downside is some of them breaking.

[wmick]

This is my first year doing this and have 29 of those clear jobbies tapped. Didn't even consider this would be an issue. Although I'm just lightly finger twisting them into place. Hoping that technique reduces my chances of breakage...fingers crossed!
I doubt that finger twisting will be tight enough... but hard to say... If you see sap bleeding out around the spile, you will need to give them a tap in tighter....
Note: Getting a proper removal tool that gets right behind both sides of the spile greatly reduces the chances of breakage... Or make one. I've made them by grinding a larger notch out of one of those cheap flat nailbars...