concentrate tank

[PATheron]

Guys-This is where im at right now. Ive got 1200 taps going to be on vacuum. Ive got four milk bulk tanks with a combined capacity of 2300 gals. Im buying the 600 gal ro so I can process it quick. If I go to work I get home at 4:00 pm. One of the tanks is a nice low profile tank with the insulation off and its light. Should I use that for concentrate and that would leave me with 1800 gals capacity for sap and just buy one more bulk tank for permeate? Would that be good or do you think I might run the 1800 gals of tank over by 4:00 on a good run. I guess I could buy two more tanks but holy cow. I got good deals on the other tanks so got them instead of buying large new tanks. Saved a lot of money that way. What do you guys think? Theron

[nhmaple48]

Don't foreget you also need a permeate tank for rinsing RO.

[maplekid]

man i wish i was in your shoes right now. new evaporator new sugarhouse new ro. hey theron you wouldnt happen to be a police officer would you i saw the name theron on an episode of cops?

[PATheron]

Maple kid- No Im not a police man. Im just an electrical person. It looks like im doing a big stroke but all im doing is spending a lot of money. Anyone can do that. Im not doing anything special. Ive always wanted a nice syrup setup and I dont buy new cars. I dont buy harleys. Ive never really bought any real expensive luxury items. I love the syruping and this is my hobby and where im choosing to spend some money. Ive got friends that think Im nuts but if I spent this money on a new pickup they wouldnt give it a second thought. Theron

[maplekid]

well at least you know how to spend it eficiently. come sugaring season you will begin to pay off you debts and not have to worry about anything.

[PATheron]

Maplekid- Im not sure whether Ill make much money but well have a lot of fun watching the sap run. Im going to try to have a web camera mounted at the sap tank where the releaser is so you can see if the sap runs from your computer. Im pretty sure I can have it working by syrup time. Theron

[maplwrks]

Theron,
Set Yourself Up To Be As Efficient As Possible. Are You Going To Start The R/o And Then Start Boiling? If This Is The Case, You Don't Need A Concentration Tank, Just Run It Straight To Your Feed Tank.
If You Set YouR R/O At 2-3 Gpm On The Concentrate Side, You Will Have 6-8% Sap At 120-180 Gph. What Works For Me Is To Fill My Feed Tank 1/2 Full,(35 Gals) Then Crank The Concentrate Down To 1 1/2 Gpm. At This Rate, I'm Producing Roughly 90 Gallons Of Concentrate An Hour For My 2 1/2 X 8.
As For Your Permeate Tank, You Will Need At Least 500 Gallons Of Storage. Keep Your Tanks For Raw Sap, So You Won't Lose Any Sap, You Can't Make Syrup With Sap On The Ground!
I Super Concentrate My Sap To 17-22%,by Looping It Back Into The Tank That Feeds My R/O. Although This May Not Be For You, Looping It Back Into The Raw Sap Can Buy You Some Time To Do Other Chores, For A Short Time.

[PATheron]

Mike- What do you use for a permeate tank? I figured my conc tank would basically be my feed tank. Thing is I guess im going to have to come up with a conc/feed tank and a permeate tank. If I rob one of my existing tanks Im going to be light on sap storage I think on a good run. If you dont mind me asking how many taps do you run with your evap/ro combo? Theron

[maplwrks]

Theron-- I Have A 600 Gal Stainless Tank For My Permeate. You Could Use Any Large Tank, Many Guys Up Here Use Norwesco 1500 Gal Tanks. Put It Outside, Pipe It In And Drain It Every Time You Use It, By Washing Your R/o.
As For Your Other Question, This Year We Have Added Vacuum To 3 Woods, And Put New Tubing In Two Of Them. So.....we Will Have Roughly 3000 On Vacuum And Another 1500 On Gravity. I Still Can't Wait Until I Can't Handle All The Sap Coming In!!!!!

[PATheron]

Mike- Holy cow! You dont own a digital camera do you? Theron

[maplwrks]

After Looking At All The Nice Pictures That You And The Other Traders Have, I Guess I've Got To Get Off My Butt And Take Some Pictures. I Really Enjoy Looking Through All The Photo Albums You Guys Have, It Really Helps Me Pass By The Slow Days At Work.

[ennismaple]

I agree with maplwrks - you need at least 500 gallons of permeate to wash your 600GPH RO membrane at the end of every day. We use a 500 gallon flat top milk tank for permeate to backwash the membrane which you can normally pick up for $1/gallon. We can get a 550 gallon vertical poly tank for $600 here in Ontario - I'm sure you've got the same thing available near you somewhere. The first 500 gallons of permeate will go in your tank for backwashing later and then you flip a valve over to send the extra permeate down the hill into the swamp!

We have an 800 gallon SS tank to feed our RO and another identical tank to feed concentrate to the evaporator. We're set up like that because they were put in many years before we got the RO. If I did it from scratch today I'd put in a 1200 gallon tank for raw sap and a 500 gallon concentrate tank.

If you're set up so that all your sap comes directly into your sugarhouse anyone (wife, neighbour etc...) could start your RO for you before you come home from work. That way you've got concentrate ready to boil right away.

[PATheron]

Mike- If im home and if its a good run ill probly be ill start evap as soon as ive concentrated enought to run the evap and go that route. Sometimes though Im going to be at work and not get home till 4PM Thats why I was wondering how much sap storage ill need. I do plan to boil every night it runs. I really dont think the sap will run for me as good as it does for you guys up there but maybe it will. I think your weather might be better becouse Jeff says 2 gals tap on vac for a good run. Im not too sure really what my trees will do never did anything like this. I know on gravity when ive tapped up there averaged a gal tap on good day. Have to see I guess. I probly might as well leave the 2300 gals of sap tanks alone and buy 2 more. Theron

[maplwrks]

I Haul All Of My Sap To The Sugarhouse. I Still Don't Have The Confidence To Have My Wife Start The R/o Though. She Does An Excellent Job Boiling, But I Draw The Line With The R/o!!!

[PATheron]

Ennismaple- I found another milk bulk tank real nice today for 550$. Its 600 gal. Sounds like a plastic one will be that much. I can use that for feed tank and find another for permeate. Do you guys agree I need 2300 gals of storage for 1200 taps on vac? Or do you think the 1800 gals would do it. If you thought the 1800 ok id just by the one more tank. Use a bulk for permeate. and one of my bulks for conc. But then im at the 1800 for raw sap. Theron

[maplwrks]

Theron--you And I Are In The Same Boat, I Do'nt Get Home Until 4:00 Either. If You Have Never Run Vacuum Before, Hold On!! Jeff Is Correct, 2 Gal Per Tap Should Get You By. Make Sure You Turn That Pump On When The Temp Hits 36 Degrees----some Of My Best Runs On Vacuum Happened When The Sap Would Not Run On Gravity!!
Good Luck----the Maple Industry Is One Of The Most Satisfying Industries With Some Of The Greatest People To Be Involved In.
Mike

[PATheron]

Mike- I guess ill leave the 2300 gals alone and buy a conc tank and a perm tank then ill be set nice. Thanks for the advise you and ennismaple. It is just fun. You need to get us some pics if you can Id like to see your setup. I can seem to find bulk tanks cheap here Ill just get back to looken. Theron

[Sugarmaker]

Theron,
We had 900 gallons ( only one run ) last year on tubing and buckets totalling about 440 taps.
If I were you I would keep the 2300 for the sap holding. (Sounds like thats your plan) I like having a little cushion on room. I always hate anything running over seems like a waste. And you dont know how much ran over and was lost.

Regards,
Chris

[sapman]

Theron,

I would think you can get a 550 vertical Norwesco for under $500, if you want to go poly. I think I can get them new where I work for closer to $400, maybe. I know we get ours right from the plant in Waverly.

Tim

[PATheron]

Sapman, Do you mean waverly NY. Right near elmira NY? Thats real close to me. That may be a pretty decent option, Im going to keep my eye open for a cheap stainless bulk tank but maybe ill get in touch with you if I cant come up with anything. Thanks Theron

[Parker]

Theron-you are going to need all the sap storage capacity you can get,,,pulling 25" does wonders,,,I have only ever been able to achive 22" and that makes a heck of a lot of sap per tap,,,your going to need the storage capacity,,,there must be a bunch of dairy acutions around your area???

[maplecrest]

you wont need all that much storage as you think , the r/o will be doing the work and you will be boiling. the storage you will need as i stated before is for rinse and wash water for the r/o can never have enough, you will always find use for it. washing tanks ,the r/o rinseing out evap ect.turn on the r/o as the sap is runnig at 100 gall. of con start boiling

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Go with a stainless round bottom milk tank even if you have to pay more. It will likely last forever, much easier to clean and over time the plastic ones get brittle and are much more prone to bacteria.

[gearpump]

With all this concern about sap storage I think it might be worth mentioning that be sure you have plenty of storage for finished syrup. It always seems like I run out containers for syrup before I run out of sap. The one place you don't want to be bottlenecked is on the syrup end, especially if you have an RO in the system.

Marty

[maplecrest]

hey marty what are you heating with that 6048? you can put a pickup truck load in that rig at night.

[PATheron]

Guys- Im finding lots of bulktanks. I think Ill be able to come up with all I need. I think im getting a plan together now that I know sizes I need. Thanks a bunch Ill keep you posted. Theron

[Dave Y]

theron,
If you find any bulk tanks you cant handle let me know . I could probably use a few.

[PATheron]

DaveY- I dont seem to have any trouble finding all I want for buck a gallon. I try to find even better deals if I can. Ill let you know if I find some I dont need. I should have what I need pretty soon. I seem to find 400 to 700 ones most often. Theron

[sapman]

Theron,

I agree to go with the stainless for everything, provided you have the room. I probably wouldn't, so if I have to add another tank I might have to go poly, so I can roll it out of the way off season. But nothing beats the stainless for complete cleaning, AND draining. I hate ice chunks or bacteria growth in the poly tanks.

Tim

[gearpump]

Jeff I am heating a lot with my outside boiler. Check the thread on wood gasaification stoves in the sugar inn section. And yes you can fit a good size truck tire ....ahhhh, truck load of in it at a time. Another suggestion with RO's and feed tanks is to use milk quailty hose from the head tank to your evaporator. I have seen regular PVC pipes with glued joints before, and the black gunk that collects on the ridges is nasty! Tygon food and beverage hose works great and nothing sticks to it. MSC industrial supply sells it.

Marty

[Russell Lampron]

I know this doesn't have anything to do with this thread but if you need some more of those Black Oaks (tires) Marty come see me. I got plenty I can set you up with.

Russ

[PATheron]

Im struggling to decide what to do about my tanks. I dont want to give one up that I have for sap. Ive got 2300 for sap. Ive found a real nice 300 gallon round stainless milk tank. Id like to use that and it would look real nice in my shed. Its insulated and it would be away from the evap. My evap is rated for 85 gal hour RO puts out roughly 150 gal hour conc. I plan to boil every night as I concentrate. Think if Im boiling while ro is working Ill be able to keep the 300 gal tank from running over? Im thinking I will. I like the tank and the price is right. What you think? Theron

[mountainvan]

I would get a bigger tank for the concentrate. By my figgeren in a little over 4 hours of boiling/ ro'ing the 300 gal tank will be overflowing. Losing 2% sap is kinda ok, but 8% concentrate, no way. If it got close you could always turn of the ro, then when the tanks almost empty do a quick rinse and then start concentrating again. Bigger back tank sounds easier.

[PATheron]

Mountainvan - How big would you suggest I use? The guy thats got that one has a bunch of them I just really liked that one. Theron

[PATheron]

The guy also has a 400 gal round one thats stainless inside and he says its fiberglass outside. I dont know what to think about that. Also I kind of thought it would be nice to have the tank inside to keep fittings from freeezing ease of cleaning etc. Whats your thoughts on that? Theron

[mountainvan]

If you have 1200 taps on vacuum, you could have the 2300 gals of sap storage filled in a big run, or a long one with the vacuum. I figure that would be roughly 600 gals concentrate out of the ro. So two of the 300 gal tanks would work. I'm in the somewhat the same situation as you, my rig does about 80 gals/hr, but my ro puts out about the gals of concentrate/hr. Concentrate doesn't freeze as quickly as sap, so outside is fine. Not sure about the fiberglass. All my tanks are galvy.

[Dave Y]

Theron,
What is a bunch and are they all for sale? If so what does he have? Send me a pm.

[maplecrest]

the 400 gallon tank will be fine i have one that is a 1200. with the fiber they are lighter. i have heat tapes on all my tanks. the tank that will freeze first will be the permeate tank. that water frezzes fast

[802maple]

We had a 75 gallon tank for our concentrate that also fed our evaporator which was a 5 x14 Dallaire that would evaporate in the range of 350 gallons per hour. We had around 16-17000 taps running into 2- 4500 gallon tanks. When we started the R.O.'s running into the feed tank and got about 30 gallons ahead we would fire up the evaporator and would set the r.o. concentrate just alittle faster than the evaporator would boil, about a quart a minute faster actually and that would allow it to gain on the evaporator enough so at the end of 4 hrs we had alittle time to rinse and get back to concentrating if we needed to. We didn't boil longer than 4 hours many times, I am not saying that we didn't boil more than 4 hours a day just that we didn't boil more than 4 hours to a time, as we would take a few hours to check the woods etc. and then when the sap caught up we would boil again.
I would set your r.o. to the same speed as your evaporator and start boiling.

[Mike]

Theron, I have a 760 gal tank for my permeate and i have it set up to dump extra outside of the sugar house...iI have a 180 gal feed tank. For my 3x10 it works great....If I run 1200 gals thru the RO i can boil off the concentrate around the same time the RO is done....Then I do my wash and rinse....Ya gotta love the RO.....I hope to do 1200 taps this year....

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mike,

Have you retired yet??

[PATheron]

Mike- Sounds like you have a very similar size setup. How fast will your evap boil an hour. Mines rated at 85 but this is my first year. What percentage are you running your concentrate? I ended up getting a nice 400 gal mueller round bottom I want to use for the concentrate if I can get it where I want it. I like the idea of being able to clean it easy. Are you running your taps on vac? Wondering how much sap you get on a decent day. Theron

[PATheron]

Mountainvan-If you dont mind me asking I was wondering how many taps you run and if they are on vac. I know you make a lot of syrup I was just wondering. Theron

[Mike]

Theron, I have a Lapierre tank for permeate a 800 gal bulk tank which I use for a feed to the RO and a 600 gal bulk tank on a trailer for sap transport...I have a 600 flat top in the woods for the vac lines....I have 700 taps now and will add 500 or so this year....I have a Vac pump with a 5.5 honda and a double realeaser......Brandon, I have about 2 more years to work .....Waiting for my youngest to grad from college....Then ill retire.....

[mountainvan]

No worries PA, I should have 3,000+ taps this coming year with half on vacuum.