Basic question: tubing on flat ground?

[stimyg]

I’ve always assumed tubing isn’t for me because I only have had 20-30 taps and more importantly my land is perfectly flat. I‘m hoping to run more like 30-50 taps this year, which I was still going to do on buckets, because, flat ground. And I don’t want to deal with pumps.

But it just occurred to me... duh... and it seems corroborated by what I’m reading on the forum here:

Can I get a slope just by tapping higher up a tree, with a ladder say? My trees are all fairly close together. Is that how people run gravity tubing on flat ground? Is it that simple or is it more difficult or not recommended for some reason?

I know nothing about tubing design since I’ve always assumed that had nothing to do with me. But do I now have a whole new world of tapping to consider!?

(Also is it worth the hassle or should I just stick with my buckets, which are fairly entertaining to empty so long as I don’t do it too often - I’m only up on the weekends anyway.)

[Russell Lampron]

Yes you can do that. My suggestion would be to run a 3/4" mainline and 5/16" tubing. Run a support wire to attach the mainline to. Secure it high at the end tree away from the collection point and as low as possible at the collection point. Try to get a 2% grade and use tie back wires to maintain slope. Then run lateral lines into the mainline making sure that they slope to the mainline. The rule of thumb is 5 taps per lateral but no more than 10.

If you can, talk to another sugarmaker and look at his woods. More than likely he would love to do it and give you some pointers.

[wmick]

I did the Ladder thing last year.. with the same notion as you.... After I went to all that work, I was advised that going higher up the tree just offsets the head pressure created by the tree... Higher Tap=Less Sap... I cant say for sure if this is true, but it came from a trusted "expert" on this Forum. In my case, I use a diaphragm pump to draw the sap through 3/16" lines to a tote, so my line slope probably didn't gain me a whole lot...
If you are only visiting weekly, Id assume running a pump is not an option... and I'd suggest that normal sized buckets are not big enough for a week of sap.

Just a suggestion..... What about setting up three or four 40 gallon drums up central to your taps and run short 3/16 gravity tubes to them... (or one ibc tote, etc.). Then you just need to empty the drums on your weekly visit... Maybe with a portable pump?

[30AcreWoods]

The short answer is "yes", you can tap higher to create slope. The downside is that you do drop available head pressure in the tree as you move up, which means less sap production. However, if you can tap more trees and collection is easier with tubing, then maybe the loss is offset by ease of collection, etc. Dr. Tim responded to this very question on a different thread today. I believe he said that moving from bucket height up to 10' or so off the ground on a 100' tree will cause a loss of about 10% of stem pressure. My experience with 3/16" tubing is that it makes things a lot easier for collection, and I have a few cases where I'm up pretty high on trees to bridge low spots on my land. I do have a significant elevation change, so some of my lines will pull 27.5" vac. (without a pump), but others are on relatively level ground and the sap runs good, even where I've tapped 8' to 10' up the trunks. I would offer you should give it a try and see how it goes as it might work well. And I agree with the suggestion to maybe use a few totes or barrels so you don't have super long runs, and can terminate a few shorter runs into a single collection barrel. Moving sap by hand is fun...for a little while!

[steve J]

Last year when I first experimented with a sur flo pumps I converted 15 trees that had been on bucket to 3/16th line and there was only a slight grade. It was unbelievable how much sap I was pulling. I later added another line that was coming off from a steep grade with equal success. I would think if you added a pump to your 5/16th line you will get a good return.

[30AcreWoods]

Steve,

How did your setup work for pump control? Some folks are in the woods, without power supply and/or daily access to turn pumps off and on, etc. It's definitely tempting.

I should have added that I use check valve taps - single use. There is a bunch of new data coming out of Cornell and UVM that support the use of check valves, clean drops and cleaning tubing annually - especially if you are using smaller diameter 3/16" tubing.

[steve J]

I used a deep cycle 12 volt battery and an inexpensive temp. control that I bought online. There are a couple threads on here that show you how to set up this kind of system. I will say if you got an interstate battery center near you that you can buy a reconditioned battery for far less than new. I just bought one for $40.00 and they backed it for 90 days which will more than get me thru the season.

[Sugar Bear]

OK

So I had to learn all this by trial and error over the past 4 years of tapping with tubing and buckets and much highly valued input from this website.

In my experience individual 5 gallon buckets with short tubing into a sealed collection pail are the most effective way to collect sap UNLESS you have a substantial amount of slope in your grove such that you have gravity on your side and or produce natural vacuum and/or you have a pump/vacuum on your lines. However even with good slope alone in your grove ( No pump ) I think you are better off production wise with individual buckets at each tap. If however you are using 3/16" tubing your slope alone may and for many tappers does produce better then individual buckets as natural vacuum is achieved by them. I have not worked with 3/16" tubing so can't speak for it.

If you took a two foot section of 5/16" tube and tried to blow air through it with your mouth you would do pretty well, if you took a 500 foot roll of 5/16" tubing and tried to blow air through it with your mouth you would do pretty poorly. If we had to hide from somebody underwater using a three foot section of 5/16 tube to breath through we might be able to do it for a while and live. If we had to breath through a 500' stretch of the same tubing we would die ... pretty quickly.

Why??? well just think about it.

Something has to move for something to flow. We suffer that problem EVERYWHERE, whether it be in a traffic jam or electricity flowing down the power lines.

Or most unfortunately of all sap flowing down our lines.

Sap suffers from a lot of the same kind of difficulty when it runs through tubing. Not as much as air because of its mass and inertia, but the obstacles are similar in nature.

So the more tubing that sap has to flow through ( compiled with all the T fittings that by unfortunate design also reduce flow ) the less sap you are going to get unless you make up for it with one of two ways or both ways ...

1) Gravity or 2) Pump/vacuum

If you don't want to use these or can't then as mentioned in the previous post you should use a larger main line with runs ( I would say 5 or less taps on 5/16 into the larger line ) The less taps you have on each connection to the larger mainline the better off you will be. Restrictions will mount even with 5 taps on level ground. And even on a slope. I GUARANTEE IT TO ALL! The larger mainline will give more room for the sap to flow freely and get it to where you want it. You will effectively be closer to where you would be with each tap on a drop to a TIGHTLY SEALED individual bucket which it my experience has proven to be the best producer of sap in situations where natural vacuum can not be obtained and/or powered vacuum is not an option.

In my experience, the individual buckets on 3 foot drops to tightly sealed 5 gallon pales with CV taps also seem to last every single bit as long as those on long runs of gravity tubing.

Food rated Lids that tightly seal on most 5 gallon pales are available at Walmart for $1.17 each.

I don't make any money on any of this stuff, but at least I am learning a lot.

[30AcreWoods]

Steve, thanks for the 12v batter tip...I'll look into it.

Sugar Bear, thanks for adding all of your experience here. My experience with 3/16" tubing has been as you suggested - very positive due to gradient. I will say, though, that it doesn't take much gradient to be effective. The most important factor is the elevation difference (which is different than overall slope) between the majority of the taps on a run and the final collection point. The falling mass of sap droplets in the 3/16" line take up the entire inner diameter of the tubing, thus creating a suction behind them, which in turn yields more sap = more mass = more suction, etc. It all makes sense when I dust off the long ago archived brain cells used during my fluid dynamics classes in college!

[Sugar Bear]

Steve, thanks for the 12v batter tip...I'll look into it.

Sugar Bear, thanks for adding all of your experience here. My experience with 3/16" tubing has been as you suggested - very positive due to gradient. I will say, though, that it doesn't take much gradient to be effective. The most important factor is the elevation difference (which is different than overall slope) between the majority of the taps on a run and the final collection point. The falling mass of sap droplets in the 3/16" line take up the entire inner diameter of the tubing, thus creating a suction behind them, which in turn yields more sap = more mass = more suction, etc. It all makes sense when I dust off the long ago archived brain cells used during my fluid dynamics classes in college!


Yes ... I am tempted to try the 3/16 tubing. Elevation difference? What would be the minimum in feet in your opinion? Have you had any clogging problems with the 3/16" tubing? It seems to me that any fittings, even one, that are within the falling sap will corrupt it and reduce the natural vacuum, would that be the case. "Fittings" fit VERY poorly with respect to flowing sap, in any setup that I have seen.

I am wondering if one can't create any natural vacuum with say 5/16 tubing because they have some drop but not nearly enough drop, would they be better off with a one way valve at the beginning of their run? Lets air in, to let the sap out of the line faster into the collection tank, because 5/16 does fill with sap if their is not enough drop. And if you are not benefiting from a natural vacuum fall would you be better off with the valve??

[Sugarmaker]

Your quantity of buckets is not overwhelming. You might just want to stay with them. The tubing will get the sap to one place. It may cost you $6-$8 dollars per tap, maybe more.
If you can try to boil during the week when you have sap you will make higher quality syrup and get the sap out of th containers. Might be good to think about a rinse on the containers each week or when the weather is warm.
Regards,
Chris

[30AcreWoods]

There is the price issue to consider as well. Good point, Chris.

In theory, you should be able to develop a vac. with the larger tubing, but it is more challenging. I believe that letting air into the system will create more issues than it solves. My best performance on the 3/16" lines is when everything is tight and the only air exposed is that at the end of the line into the tank. Fittings/blockages haven't been an issue either, but I do walk the lines and check to make sure they are clear (inside and out) and check for squirrel nibbles and replace them if needed. Once the vacuum is established, the fittings don't really cause any issues because you are in pressure flow - which is different than say water running around a rock in a stream. Yes, it does create some turbulence and restriction, I suppose, but the velocity isn't so great that those factors override the benefits.

[stimyg]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Lots to digest. I actually have a question about what seems like the simplest system, barely qualifies as a tubing system at all:


OK
In my experience individual 5 gallon buckets with short tubing into a sealed collection pail are the most effective way to collect sap UNLESS you have a substantial amount of slope in your grove such that you have gravity on your side and or produce natural vacuum and/or you have a pump/vacuum on your lines. //

In my experience, the individual buckets on 3 foot drops to tightly sealed 5 gallon pales with CV taps also seem to last every single bit as long as those on long runs of gravity tubing.

Interesting. Even 5 gallon buckets would help a lot, given that I'm only up to collect on weekends, and often my 3 gallon buckets are overrunning with sap. One question here: I'm assuming CV taps means check valve spouts, right? I ask because I've heard good things about the Zap Bac spouts ( https://www.bascommaple.com/item/spmicrob/ ), which don't seem to be CV. Any opinions on which would be better if I'm just dropping straight into 5 gallon buckets? The hope is to keep the tap hole open and running as long as possible, obviously...

[30AcreWoods]

Yes, CV = check valve. The data show that they outperform regular spouts. One reason is that they don't allow the trees to uptake sap from the drop lines which may have a lot of bacteria. Thus, they keep the tap open longer. I have no experience with the Zap Bacs, and thus can't comment. I would say that though they may perform better than a standard seasonal spout, I can't see how they'd be better than CV spouts that completely shut-out uptake. Cost is also an issue for most of us. I do replace my spouts every year, and I replace my drop lines and tees every 2-3 years.

[30AcreWoods]

Oh, and have fun and experiment with your situation! Every piece of land is different. What works for us, may not be best for you. I think most folks on here will tell you that the more time goes on, the more they learn about the "microclimate" of the sugar bushes they work. I have four lines all within spitting distance of each other. But I've learned which ones will run first in the season, and which ones will run late. It's fascinating stuff (I think).

[Sugar Bear]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Lots to digest. I actually have a question about what seems like the simplest system, barely qualifies as a tubing system at all:

Interesting. Even 5 gallon buckets would help a lot, given that I'm only up to collect on weekends, and often my 3 gallon buckets are overrunning with sap. One question here: I'm assuming CV taps means check valve spouts, right? I ask because I've heard good things about the Zap Bac spouts ( https://www.bascommaple.com/item/spmicrob/ ), which don't seem to be CV. Any opinions on which would be better if I'm just dropping straight into 5 gallon buckets? The hope is to keep the tap hole open and running as long as possible, obviously...

I recommend that you take NOBODIES advice on this regarding CV taps VS ZB taps and put in half of your taps as CV and half as ZB and determine for yourself which do better. Politics is a part of every product on the planet, both good and bad. Zap Back were designed out your way in NY. Check Valve were designed and patented in Vermont. I have noticed that the people in VT believe in the CV tap and everybody along the Southern Tier of NY believes in the ZB tap.

Both are ingenious and simple concepts.

One may well work better then the other in one season.

One may well work better then the other over several season in a row.

At .45 cents each they are only cheap according to the people who designed and patented them. "Everything I make is cheap and a great deal"

If you do your own research on them, which I highly recommend PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW IT GOES!

As for me I use CV and Clear and it "seems" ( can not say for certain ) that the CV last a little longer then the clear ( same spout as CV but without the CV ).

I have never used Zap Back, but have heard a very large sugar maker near you say good things about them.

5 gallon buckets will fill up easily on a single tap in one week. I have had them fill up in one day when the going is fresh and good. They probably will not fill up in late January early Feb even if temps are ideal. But if you tap in early MARCH under prime conditions you will fill a 5 gallon bucket in one week on one tap. If not then you taped a bad spot or an OAK tree.

ONE OF THE KEY PROMLEMS HERE IS THAT 5/16 SAP LINES WILL NOT TRANSPORT SAP VERY WELL UNLESS VACCUM IS PUT ON THAT LINE. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH THAT EVEN WITH DECENT SLOPE/DROP on 5/16 TUBING. ELECTRICTY AND A PUMP ARE REQUIRED.

Based on the slope you said you have you either want one of the three.

1) individual 5 gallon buckets with 5/16 drops to each. Spout types are your choice and experimentation is an incredibly informative thing.

2) A larger 3/4" or 1" inch mainline sloping toward your collection tank. This mainline will have 5/16 inch T connectors in it and these T connectors should have no more then 5 taps running into them. 2 or 3 each would be better. So if you have 50 taps and have 5 taps on each run into a T on the mainline then you will have 10 T's in your mainline. Mainline must have some slope to your collection tank. And I believe it would behoove you to vent the mainline at the end far opposite where it dumps into the collection tank. I think Wilmont would agree with that vent. Not sure about that however. Compare your mainline to the garden hose. Ever notice how when you disconnect the garden hose form the house water runs out the other end. Ahaa! Don't bother experimenting with different spouts here as you will not know which did which.

3) Bring some electricity and a pump out to the sugarbush. and O yae ... get a bigger storage tank.

Hope this helps.


There are a lot of politics behind every product

[Sugar Bear]

Yes, CV = check valve. The data show that they outperform regular spouts. One reason is that they don't allow the trees to uptake sap from the drop lines which may have a lot of bacteria. Thus, they keep the tap open longer. I have no experience with the Zap Bacs, and thus can't comment. I would say that though they may perform better than a standard seasonal spout, I can't see how they'd be better than CV spouts that completely shut-out uptake. Cost is also an issue for most of us. I do replace my spouts every year, and I replace my drop lines and tees every 2-3 years.

The Zap Bacs work on the concept of silver mixed into the polymer of the tap. Silver is used in various objects to kill bacteria or keep bacteria from transporting itself.

I do not know this for scientific fact of from my own observations and operations, but I have been told that Oderless Socks have silver in them to kill the bacteria that grows on feet/socks and causes them to stink.

I surmise that the silver that was placed in teeth for many years and still is in various situations, also killed bacteria and in and of itself prevented further tooth decay around the margins of the filling. Whether that was by design or was inadvertent is not known according to the several dentists I have asked about it.

Like the concept the CV spout the Zap Bac tap is an ingenious design. Whether it is more effective on the task it was designed for is unclear to me.

[30AcreWoods]

Sugar Bear, thanks for all of that insight! It always comes down to politics...

Oh, would silver socks work for hockey smells? I haven't seen any sanitizer on this planet yet make a hockey bag smell better :cool:

[Sugar Bear]

Sugar Bear, thanks for all of that insight! It always comes down to politics...

Oh, would silver socks work for hockey smells? I haven't seen any sanitizer on this planet yet make a hockey bag smell better :cool:

If they had a silver spray it might work, but I would bet that they have not been able to get that approved.

Most of the good ideas that are out their that were made by people, were not really made by them. They were just good ideas from somebody else that were implemented on something else.

I am going to try some zap bacs at some point next to some CV's at some point. Just have not gotten around to it yet.

[Sugar Bear]

Try grinding a pair of silver socks up into a fine dust ... very fine ... add it to a warm bottle of water ... shake well ... put it in a spray bottle ... shake again.. spray your hockey equipment ( before it smells ).

Smell for any possible results as appropriate.

Let me know if you do get results.

[maple flats]

Back to maple rather than socks, The last 2 years I used about half CV taps and half Zap Bac taps. In year 1 I saw no difference (but I did not get any scientific data). In year 2 I changed the CV taps and levf the ZB taps, I think I had a very slight loss of flow in the 2nd year ZB taps, but again, no scientific data. This year I'm again using ZB taps for their 3rd and final season, and all new taps will be CV taps for this season and the near future.
About 3/16 vs 5/16, if you can't get at least 10-12' of slope, I suggest you use 5/16 if on gravity. However I use vacuum at 26-27" vac and about 40% of my taps are actually pulling from lower ground than the mainlines.
On my first big test of 3/16 on flat or lower ground I strung the tubing and then started to tap. I had 24 or 25 taps on each of my first 2 lines. Those lines went from tree to tree, until the reached the driveway into the sugar house. There I used an angle hook connector, designed for the end tree, but I installed it so what would normally be to the tap, I ran 3/16 up the tree to a height of 15', there it crossed the driveway (about 25' wide) to another tree, wrapped once around that tree and then down at about a 50 degree slope to a mainline which had the 26-27" vacuum on it. As I tapped the sap was running, I tapped the 24 or 25 taps, on line one, starting from the end tree, while my partner tapped the other line. When I got to the main line I was surprised that the sap was flowing not only thru from the far tap, about 3-400' of 3/16 tubing, then up to the 15' elevation across the diveway and down to the mainline. I had hooked the last hook connector to the mainline, but had not yet attached it to the mainline with a saddle. As I drilled the hole and worked on attaching it, my hands got very wet from the sap flow. That happened on both of those lines. That experiment I considered a success. For the cost of about 400' of 3/16 (plus some 5/16 for drops, tees and taps then 1 saddle, I was getting good sap flow from that challenging low area. The second line was the same. That was 3-4 seasons ago. I know I'm losing potential because of line friction, but the cost to do those the conventional way would have been far more costly. The next year I added 3-4 more lines, all on 3/16, again from areas lower than the mainline. Last year I added even more, again, from lower areas.
Personally, I willingly give up some potential/tap to get far more taps with the least cost to add them. This year I will have between 400 and 450 taps total at my sugar house and all but about 125 are be on 3/16 lines pulling from lower areas. Even with the loss, I got .52 gal/tap in syrup in 2018, and .49 gal/tap in 2019.
Yes, with a good vacuum pump (mine is a very old BB4 piston pump) you can pull sap thru 3/16 laterals. I keep my tap count to about 25 max for the 3/16 lines, I use 5/16 taps and drops then join it to the lateral using a 3/16 x 3/16 x 5/16 Tee. Could I get more sap, yes, but it would require a much bigger investment. My 3/16 lines are all lower at the far end away from the mainline, thus I'd need to run a mainline the distance, then I'd need to run 5/16 lines and saddles to the mainline with about 5 taps/line, not over 10, thus far more saddles, and a sap ladder or 2 on each mainline. I consider the lower investment in materials cost a far better choice. Maybe I could get .6 gal/tap going the traditional way, but would I recoup the cost in extra syrup before I retire (I'm now 73)?

[Sugar Bear]

It is important to recognize with Zap Bac and CV spouts that it is potentially possible that ...

1 The CV spout may perform better under a vacuum tubing system then the Zap Bac spout.

AND

2) The Zap Bac spout may perform better then the CV spout under a Drop Line to bucket system.

AND

3) Any combination or permutation of the above may be possible.

[30AcreWoods]

Dave, I would love to hear how this year goes for you in the final year of your comparison between CV/Zap Bac. I like the CV's, but perhaps that is only because I have over 50' of elevation drop from top-bottom on my 3/16" lines. I know it's simple physics, but to see friends and family look at the dial and see over 27in without a pump doesn't get old! I've also heard other sugar makers in my area say they can pull gravity lines over driveways with 3/16" tubing, and as long as there is enough drop in the system, it will pull up and over without any issue. I've begun to "trust" the system a bit more, and am beginning to grab lower area trees and add them to my gravity lines, and it does pull the sap. I see it as a bit of a challenge to work with the land, and see how much I can accomplish without electricity. I do have an entire sugar bush that heads downhill, directly away from my sugar house that I haven't yet tapped. I'm wondering if I should use 3/16" on gravity for that, and just use a gas water pump to bring the sap from a collection barrel "on the other side" back to the sugar house vs. setting up vacuum pumps to bring all of the tap lines "up, over and down". Any thoughts?

[kboone1]

I do have an entire sugar bush that heads downhill, directly away from my sugar house that I haven't yet tapped. I'm wondering if I should use 3/16" on gravity for that, and just use a gas water pump to bring the sap from a collection barrel "on the other side" back to the sugar house vs. setting up vacuum pumps to bring all of the tap lines "up, over and down". Any thoughts??

Just my experience, and I thought it was worth sharing (you can be the judge ha-ha!)

I am dabbling with a 4048 12V Shurflo system this year, teamed with a $50 Inkbird temp controller and $50 110AC-12V converter at my shack. I hate collecting, it takes the fun out of it for me since I am limited on time, and I have about 100 taps that are below my gravity mainline on the hill and also on flat ground around my shack. I have 140 3/16 gravity taps on my mainline, but wanted to get the rest of the potential without the collection effort.

I was reading a lot about the hybrid systems, asked some questions on here, and figured what the heck, I bet it works pulling stuff uphill and on flat ground, however no one really gave me any specific confirmation. Let me tell ya, I don't regret it one bit! I am pulling things a long way (1,500 LF on one hybrid line), through road culverts, from flat land, and also a couple hybrid lines that have gravity to start but then go low and back up to the shack.

I will say I spent a good bit of time making sure my system was leak-free at the manifold. The smallest leaks made the difference, and I even had to replace the Shurflo screen that came with the pump with a different one I ordered separate. I went from 18" to 26" at the manifold in a hot second, pretty crazy.

That being said, I have not tried anything like what you are talking about with a Shurflo. I am watching my lines race uphill through a road culvert I cross that is about 10 vertical feet in about 50 feet (so say 20% grade on teh 1,500 LF line) and I bet if you have a really strong downhill run on gravity, then bring it uphill, the gravity will enhance the ability of the pump since it isn't really working on the tap length of the run, just the excess coming back up. If I had your woods, after trying my stuff, I would give it a try and see what happens. I was so surprised by the system this year, I am already looking for ways to gain taps I never thought was worthwhile due to topography.

Again, just my thoughts, but I think it would be possible even just with a Shurflo if the hill wasn't crazy steep and super long, but I could be wrong.

Oh, I am running about 25" of vac on every tap with a $250 system, that's hard to beat from a value perspective IMO!

Kody