Assorted Vacuum Questions

[ibby458]

I'm convinced vacuum is in the future for me, but the questions just keep piling up - - -

The vacuum pump I can get cheap is a HUGE one. The owner had a 7-1/2 hp motor on it, and it was working hard to keep it going. (He bought it at an auction with a 10 hp 3 phase motor, but didn't have 3 ph. power, so had to put a smaller single phase motor on it.) He replaced it with a smaller one.

Obviously, I don't need that big of a pump. Can I run it at reduced speed and still get the vacuum up to 18" or whatever is best?

Do I need a vacuum tank to buffer the releaser opening and closing? The farmer thought I would - he has one on his milking setup and thought it was necessary.

One location has the potential for 2 seperate mainlines on opposite sides of a road. (THey both slope to the road) Can I run a dry line hrough an existing culvert under the road to the 2nd line and run 2 releasers with one pump?

I have an electric start 20 hp twin cylinder engine that ought to power it nicely. (And a 35 hp 3 cylinder one if it don't) How would someone go about hooking that up to start and stop on a thermostat? I've heard of it being done, but maybe only on specially designed engines?

Can the vacuum be introduced at the TOP end of the slope? (releaser still at the bottom). I've got a long roadside with intersecting fence row with over 300 taps on them. They all come together on top of a hill, slopping away from where they intersect. I was trying to figure out how to avoid installing extra dry lines to the lower end of each slope.

These are all on the north/east side of big woodlots. Being shaded most of the day, I was going to use the cheap black plastic pipe. Will that take 18" vacuum without problems?

I know that's a lot of questions, and Thanks for your patience.

[royalmaple]

I'll give you my spin on it, you'll get others.

You can gear down the vacuum pump so it is not turning to capacity, so say it typically turns at 900 rpm, you could play with pulley's so that it is turning enough to keep good vacuum on your system, but you wouldn't need to have that thing winding right up so the bearings fall off if you know what I mean.

You don't need a vacuum tank, if you are buying a new style releaser there is a primary stage that the sap enters first then flows into the main chamber. When the main chamber is dumping the flapper inside closes off the primary chamber and there is no vacuum lost in the system for those few seconds. Then when the main tank closes vacuum opens up the flapper and the primary tank flows into the main tank.

You can certainly run another dry line to another releaser, but you'd be better off $$ wise if you can get the sap to one releaser and save yourself 1000 bucks.

I'd say the electric start option may not work since you need to actuate the button to start the motor. I won't speculate since I don't know but you'd have to find some special switch that would make contact to start the engine like you were standing there hitting the button, and also be based on temperature settings. Again I haven't used that, so I won't say.

You can have the pump anywhere, but you should have the vacuum line connecting the pump going directly to the releaser.

Black pipe is fine for 18", I've run it higher and others with liquid ring pumps run it as high as they can get and it's fine.

[maplecrest]

Here are a few of my thoughts. i run a bush that is1600 feet below the sugar house usig a dry line to run the releaser. it can be done. runnig a dry line over the road or thru the culvert. thru the culvert will freeze if no moisture drain. the tank that can boost with the pump you should use. if you hook up the dry line to the down hill bush with releaser, run the two releasers on both sides of road. when one releaser trips all your woods with shutter. with the vac storage and each releaser running out of that storage you will stop the shuttering effect. i am hooking a 80 gallon pvc storage to my sugar house set up this year with two releasers on it. valve the lines also, you can valve check from there to detect major leaks before you go looking.as for the vac pump. a 16 hp motor will run it with ease. as for the start, i used gas engines with vac and did not have very good luck. is there any power near your area? a land owner or house near buy you could offer a 100 bucks for the season for power use? they also make these little three phase power boxes now to convert that are reasonably priced

[ibby458]

The 3 phase motor was scrapped, so that's not an option anymore. What problems did you have with the gas engine?

Thinking about it, I figured out that I gotta go over once a day to pick up sap anyway - why not wait until the temp's right, and start the pump manually at the same time. A thermostat to break the ignition circuit once the temp drops is an EZ hookup.

I think (instead of all the dry lines), I might just pick up a few more vacuum pumps. With all the farmers going out of business, they should be plentiful. Just gotta find engines for them, and releasers.

I think I'm going to pick up the dairy releasers, too, but also try to build one. We'll see how that works out. It's pretty obvious to me that I'll be using the buckets for another year, but maybe for 2009 - - - - - -

[royalmaple]

The major drawback is consistency with the gas engines. Never fails no matter how hard you try, when you need it most you'll go and check the setup and the engine will be off, and still has pleanty of gas. Scratching head....Wonder why? Oh fouled a plug.

Or ran out of gas etc. I hung a 5 gallon bucket from a tree last year in the woods to get more run time out of the engine. Since the stock tank on the engine is only good for a few hours, maybe 4-5 max.

If you can get electric to the pump, you'll be miles ahead.

I'm setting a pole this season and putting an electric drop right at my pump site. Even paying for all this stuff, I'd be close to even with the gas I'd need to buy to run it when it wants to. And with electricity you can set it and forget it. Yes you can have a power outage, but I'll roll the dice on that vs fouling a plug.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

It doesn't look like the price of gas is going to get any cheaper. Iran is now talking about blocking off one of the waterways where 40% of the world's oil flows thru every day by ship. This would likely push gas somewhere in the $ 5 to $ 8 per gallon range.

[H. Walker]

Ibby458
I have the same problem as you, a lot of remote small groves of maples. What I was thinking is using vacume pumps with small diesel engines. There is a surpus equipment company here in Canada called "Princess Auto" that has their own brand 6hp diesel engine for $399.99. I think that it would run most vacume pumps and with a larger fuel tank on it, it should run for ever. The only problem is that you can't shut them off with a electic thermostat. Just an idea!!

[maplecrest]

my luck with gas engines, was as matt said always something wrong. no gas, fouled plug, low on oil,lost belt, ect. one thing i will say is that you do not need to wind the motor up. runs pump great above an idle. which is good in the gas department. my tubing washer is gas driven, nothing worse than getting everything up and running you are washing and think that you are going to do a stroke of business that day and the motor dies. you hike out of the woods fiddle around with it, get it running,get the wash and air back where you left off and it dies again. a day wasted. and i wonder why it takes so long to wash tubing.i think the day i really rethought that was the day the motor caught on fire.i was lucky that my water bottle was in reach to knock the flames down. parker can chime in this one, he had a motor pump fire also. to this day i still have not put a fire ex. on my rig. but need to

[TapME]

Walker; that diesel engine sounds real good, do you know the torque that it has at idle speed and fuel rate per hour?

[mountainvan]

I somewhat agree with the problems with gas engines, I had a few last year, but with the experience and knowledge I gained last season I don't expect to have problems next year. Yes gas is up a lot, but the extra syrup more than pays for it.

[royalmaple]

I put a brand new 5.5 hp tecumse engine on my surge sp-22 last year and only thing that was tough is on the new engines there is little play in the throttle setting. It is either idle or full speed. At idle it would just put along and sip gas. I could get about 24 hour run time on 5 gallons of gas, that went about in 1/2 when I had it on the run position. So this year at 3.00/gallon thats 15.00/day in gas +. And you can do the math for 30-40 day season. Kinda makes getting power to the pump not so bad an idea.

One thing I did notice is that on the higher idle I was turning the pump over more and getting more cfms out of the pump, and at times (could have been magic) on the higher idle it appeared like I would get a rush of sap. Could have been just clearing the lines out a bit better with the more cfms.

Other thing is at the idle speed that is where you are more likely to foul plugs, but you use less gas. I'd say over the season I went through 10 or so spark plugs, all new. I changed the plug regardless everytime I changed the oil. And I changed the oil in the engine and the vacuum pump pretty much each week. I got them warm then shut down changed the oil and put new oil in and hit the cord once again.

I would highly advise putting your pump on some sort of solid base, not just the ground. It might be frozen in the winter, but that all turns to mud very soon and your pump is buried in the ground, not so good.

Like jeff said you don't need to crank the engine up, since regardless of how high the engine is turning your vacuum regulator is already breaking the vacuum at where you set it so if you are running at 18, its still running at 18 inches at 100 rpms or 3600 rpms. In theory with a tight system anyway.

[ibby458]

THat's a lot of info, and I gotta agree with most of it. (Concerning small gas engines). Maybe I oughta go back to the first thought of using the one big pump and lots of dry lines to each releaser.

I've got an International B414 Diesel tractor that'll run the wood splitter all day on 2 gallons of fuel. (Hydraulic pump on the splitter is PTO powered.) If I power the vacuum pump with the PTO (Gearing it up as needed), it wouldn't cost so much, and likely be more reliable. I could put a solenoid on the fuel cut-off lever to shut it down once it freezes up again.

[tuckermtn]

I bet without too much $$ or problems you could find a hydraulic motor to run of the same PTO pump that you run your wood spiltter on..probably use the same hoses and fittings....mount it up on a pallet or something off the 3 pt hitch drawbar...seems like overkill to run a vacuum pump with a tractor, but I agree that my old kubota used to sip fuel (especially at idle) and you could find a simple solenoid to shut off the fuel...

-tuckermtn

[maplecrest]

we had a b 414, bought new in 60 some thing, left on a hook in 1984. motor ran the rest was wore out. that tractor never had a day off from the time it arrived till it left. put a set of chains on it and it would go.we gathered all our sap with that tractor for more than 20 years. and it did sip fuel. at an idle you should be able to run all your systems off that one pump.they made gear reductions for un loading forage wagons, running elevators ect. with all the farms going out in your area you might find one of those to run the pump

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I have 600 feet of 1 inch main line that will have 200 taps on it. but i only have about 6 feet of fall. will it work or am i to flat????

RICH

[maplecrest]

you got a sight level? i spent the day today doing what you need to do. go to home depot and get a sight level. start at the tank and work your why up the hill.useing the bubble in the level to set your pitch. flag the hieght on the trees as you go along. use the contour of the land, slope of the hill,ect.if you really want to get it right use a transit,mark dead level on the trees. then adjust your slope. had to do that in an area i thought would run but would not even under vac. and ended up putting a ladder there and i am not happy with that.my new area i am working on sounds like yours. i have plenty of pitch by beeing greedy i want every tree i can get so the main line is not going to have a lot of pitch on it. just above level on my site gauge

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I went thru with a transit and shot grade. marked my trees and dont have much fall.

RICH

[maplecrest]

how much vac are you thinking? 18 to 20 inches with a coulpe of step ladders might work

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

yes 18/20 inches, but i want to save my ladders for my latral lines coming in
my main line
RICH

[maplwrks]

Rich,
Is Your Problem Going To Be Getting Your Laterals Into The Mainline With Pitch? What I Do In This Case Is To "barberpole" The Lateral Around The Last Tree Before It Gets To The Mainline. By This I Mean, Wrap The Tubing Around The Tree A Couple Of Times, Winding Around And Up The Tree Until You Get To A Level As To Where You Can Get Pitch Into The Main. The Vacuum Will Pull It Up The Line Into The Main. I Would Run A Couple Of Sap Ladders On The Main So That I Got At Least A 3% Pitch.
I Have A Couple Of Instances In One Of My Flat Woods Where It Is Necessary To Do This. I Did See In A Woods That I Went Through Last Year, Where The Last Tree Was 6' Below The Mainline. This Fella Just Ran The Lateral Straight Up The Hill To The Main. It Was Pretty Cool Watching Sap Run Up Hill.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

maple works , my problem is my woods slopes away from my sugarhouse. so im trying to stay as low as i can so i dont have to tap off a ladder. is it better to have ladders and more slope??

RICH

[maplwrks]

Rich,
You Can Use Ladders To Create More Slope On Your Mainlines. Depending On How Much Hill Slope You've Got, You May Need To Use 2 Or 3 Sap Ladders To Get Pitch Enough On Your Mainline To Get The Sap To Run Back To The Sugarhouse. You Can Also Run All Your Mainlines To A Low Point In Your Woods Then Put A Big Ladder In At That Point To Carry The Sap Back To The Sugarhouse. If You Can Get 15" Of Vacuum To That Area, A 14' Sap Ladder Will Work.
Mike

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

How much vacuum will i lose, iam figuring 3 ladders at 3 or 4 feet each??

RICH

[maplecrest]

it depends on how tight your system is, the type of pump you use. a dairy pump you will lose an 1` or two inches per step up. i would say that an air injector would work well with that set up. it runs a air bubble every so often to keep the sap moving. i cut a small slit on one line [at bottom ]of each ladder to create turbulance to keep the sap moving. i got a injector from a farmer that just went out. it was used when he washed his pipeline. he gave it to me. so they are out there cheep, leader and other companys want close to 300 for the same thing.a liquid ring pump pulls steady vac but not high cfm like dairy, one good deer bite on one line will lose you 10 inches, where the dairy will over come that and keep a higher vac level at your ladder. if you have 20 inches at the pump, with three good size ladders you should have 16 inches at your last tree. and i would put a vac gauge there to watch it. if you walk up to it and it is at 10 inches go looking you have a leak.

[maplwrks]

You Can Also Run 3 "stars" In A Row to Help Transfer More Vacuum. I Put 2 In On All Of My Ladders, But I Have Seen 6-8 Used In Lapierres' Sugarbush In Canada. It Looks Like A Mess But They Work Real Well.
Mike

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

I will be useing a sp11 pump running 18/20 lbs. when you use 2 stars do they go back to back in the line??

[maplwrks]

I Put Mine Roughly 12" Apart.
Mike

[doocat]

I have a set of sap ladders that raise the main 20 feet. Three ladders in all. Periodically I have times when the ladders stop. It appears that they get flooded (overwhelmed). They are all two stars each ladder and service about 60 taps. Am I correct in understanding that if I introduce a little air to the bottom it will help the ladder work?

Thanks

[Russell Lampron]

Doocat, The air helps lift the sap. It is easier for the vacuum to pull up a small amount of sap with an air bubble under it than it is to lift a solid column.

Russ

[Father & Son]

I think it was royalmaple that has a video about his sap ladders that shows how he lets in a little air. It shows the ladder working.

Jim

[royalmaple]

The air will certainly help. I crack the valves at the ends of my mainlines to get the right lift, without compromising the vacuum system too much.

I got a couple of video's you can watch to check it out, short clips but gives you the idea. The highest one I have out back here is about 7 feet high and I was running about 18" of vacuum here at the house and I have two other sap ladders on the same pump. Each of them are about 5-6 feet high. I'll have more this year as I add on older gravity tubing to vacuum.

[maplecrest]

one one of the bottom lines of a star cut a slit along one of the barbed holders. put line on the holder. i press it on as hard as i do or donot want air added to ladder. on low flow days no air is required. on heavy flow days i will add air. my tallest ladder that is 15 feet high i have a valve built[teed] into the main line before the ladder. with a valve and a piece of 2 foot black pipe tied straight up in the air. add air with valve. some times gets so flooded that i have to drain on ground to get it going, the adjust as needed. ladders need attention every day

[ibby458]

Well - a lot has changed since I first started this thread. The lease on that bush fell thru, and I ended up buying the bush next door. Easily 1000 taps now, but could be up to 3000 by the time I get done thinning and let the smaller ones grow for a few yesrs.

I bought a Petter 6.5 bhp single cylinder diesel engine for $150. Runs great, but it's a full speed (3600 rpm) or nothing set up. It's got a couple extra shafts sticking out the back side with different gear reductions. Gotta get a tach to see what speeds they are.

I got soooo much thinning to do that I can't put a full system in for next season. but I can catch almost 500 taps pretty easily in a section we already got thinned. Gotta do some searching for home built releasers. After buying the land, the piggy bank is BUSTED.

[brookledge]

Hopefully you will be able to take some of the earnings from the sap you get to put back into the bush to expand a little each yr.
Congats on the purchase
Keith