Max # of Taps on 5/16 Line

[tappin&sappin]

Hi all,

This will be my forth year of making syrup and I got permission to tap some roadsides that are all in a line. Enough trees for about 70 taps.

In one spot, I have the potential to put about 30 taps on one line. I'm figuring on using the (5/16 P) from Leader. There is a decent slope there, not sure of exact grade.

My question is, would that be too many taps on the 5/16 line? This is gravity only, no vacuum.

Thanks,
Jake

[fred]

5-7 taps ,if you vent the ends you could probably go 15

[Jim Brown]

tappin&sappin; We try to keep ours at no more than 10 per 5/16 lateral.(with or with out vac)Try running a short piece of 3/4 and hook in to it with your 5/16. Will make a world of diffrence on gravity flow.

Jim

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have about 45 on one lateral and it gave me an increase in sap over the conventional 5 to 10 tap rule. You never saw sap move so fast in your life on gravity. Wish I had a vac gauge to check and see how much natural vacuum I was creating at the farthest point from the mainline which would be 500 to 700 feet.

[ennismaple]

5-7 taps ,if you vent the ends you could probably go 15

Don't vent your ends - The University of Vermont's Proctor Research Station has published test results that show a 32% overall reduction in sap production when you vent versus non-vented. They believe that it's caused by the tapholes drying out sooner when the line is vented. The sap will move slower non-vented but by the end of the season you'll be further ahead.

[Mark-NH]

I believe there is an important distinction to be made with regard to natural vacuum. I bet you do have a natural vacuum with the 5/16" line running into a main line. I have experienced the same because of overall volume running through both lines and "pulling" the sap into the main line.

I have not experienced any vacuum when running only 5/16" lines on smaller groups of maples.

[ibby458]

I'd expect natural vacuum to vary a lot, depending on slope and overall drop. A full mainline hanging off a 250' cliff probably would pull pretty good, but a 1000' pipe only dropping a few feet would add very little natural vacuum. I'm sure there are formulas to calculate it, but I don't know what they are.

[brookledge]

Jake
I'd just put up the 5/16 and see how it does putting up 30 taps is easy and if you decide to put up some mainline you can always do it another year. But with out vacuum I think you will be fine. When you have vacuum you need to reduce the amount of taps and your length of your laterals so that you get good vacuum transfer to the end of the line.
Another reason to just put up 5/16 is if you need to take it down evey year.
It is easy to just coil up the tubing and put it away vs dealing with mainline
Keith

[3% Solution]

Hey Jake,
I have two sets, if you will, of roadsides that I have put on 1/2" mainline.
One set had 20 taps on 5/16" and during a good run the tubing was full for the last 25', running out the end about the size of the lead in a pencil.
Two years ago I put in the 1/2" mainline, the sap travels about 7' to 8' through the 5/16" then into the mainline.
The other set has 30 taps on it which I did the same last year.
I like the way the sap clears out of the 1/2", with nothing standing in the tubing.
The set I did last year cost me about $85.00, so if I do the math it's less than 3 gallons of syrup.
This is just my set up and idea, nothing more.
Oh yes, both sets are gravity, the slope is about a 7' drop in 100'.

Dave

[tappin&sappin]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Seems like there is quite a bit of debate on the subject.

Sounds to me like the best option would be to get an extra collection drum, and break the 30 taps up into two 15 tap sets.

From reading your replies, I think most of you would agree that 15 taps on gravity in a 5/16" tube should be okay.

If anyone else has any input, please feel free to comment!

[Sugarmaker]

Jake,
I am going to increase the taps per line up to 20 this year into a 39 gallon tote. This is up form last year a little. Two reasons, I had some 12 tap lines and only filled half a tote. Also I want to reduce/limit the number of totes and stops. I do know about how the trees run so I have a pretty good idea of the ones that run really well those will be about 16 max on a line. So I am going to have about 2 gallons of storage for each tap. I think this may average out OK.
I may need some help setting my tubing. You could come over and use my set up as a learning experience too.;)

Chris

[tappin&sappin]

I'm planning on getting all my collection tanks from Welches in North East. They usually have 55 gallon drums that you can get for... $1.00!. All they have in them is essence of apple??? Should be able to wash them out and baddabing.

I usually call before I go over there to make sure they have some available. I figure it beats paying 8-12 bucks for a tote from walmart.

I'd like to give you a hand putting up tubing. Just let me know when and where. :)

My plan is to get my tubing before Christmas so I can work on getting the drops made up over break. Of course putting the civic in the ditch this morning didn't help the tubing fund...

[Sugarmaker]

Jake,
Bad roads up here this morning too, but things have cleared up, and now just have a lot of wind tonight. Hope you and the car are OK.
I also want to work on some tubing after Christmas, if I can get away from MuzzleLoader hunting;) We may need to get together.

Chris

[tappin&sappin]

The body shop is helping the car heal, I seem to be durable my nature... :)

I got a nice buck Saturday morning. Have pics, but no site to post.

Pry yourself from muzzleloader season and lets hang some tubing!

- Jake

[Sugarmaker]

Jake,
Man It must have been like opening day a lot of nice bucks killed last Sat. I am going to try to have all my drops ready to go by then and I have talked to some of the folks about hanging the tubing early so I might just take you up on that! I do need to get a couple more rolls of tubing.

Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jake,

Email me a pic of you buck and congrats!

wvmapler@suddenlink.net

[lmathews]

I would concider the time factor in putting in an extra barrel.That is one more stop.if I am correct you could run a 1/2 inch line pretty cheap and keep it to one pick up spot.In my experiance I ran 45 taps on road sides all on 5/16m and it worked but I cut my own yield by not running a small section of main.

[tappin&sappin]

Thanks Brandon!

I finally got around to posting some pics to photobucket. The link is in my signature.

This years buck is in the 07 Rifle Buck album.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jake,

Awesome bucks and congrats! Sure hate to see season over for me for the year. I could still hunt some more but due to having work to do at the sugarhouse, I need to get that done as I am 2 months or less from tapping.

Where do you live, those are some awesome bucks??

[maplecrest]

sap will pick up the apple in the barrels. you might not notice it or you might in your final product. i looked at a stainless steel 2500 gallon tank that had apple juice in it and did not dare buy it due to the flavor concern. ask if they have any that had orange juice in them. but if you smell them and they smell strong of apple be aware.

[royalmaple]

Nice buck, Is that the same one in your trail camera. Kinda neat if it was.

I've got to show my wife the picture of you with your daughter checking the sap bucket, cute picture. Now she'll have even more ammo to have a kid, I can hear it now...."see you can still do sugarin with a kid"

[PATheron]

Tappin and sappin- I like your evap a lot. Thats a nice looking rig. Did you do it yourself? Those trees you tap, theyll run a bucket right over in a day wont they? Ive tapped some like that before couldnt believe how much sap they run. Cool pics. Theron

[Sugarmaker]

Jake,
Great buck! I will have to look at the rest of your pictures tomorrow.
Nice pictures of the buckets on those big maples in the cemetery. Love the look of the buckets. Although I know the work related. Each one is a surprise.
Regards,
Chris

[tappin&sappin]

Thanks to all for the nice comments!

PATheron, I bought the evap from a retired tin knocker. He was getting out of sugaring because he wanted to finish building his airplane. No kidding, I got to see it! Quite a few of those trees along the hay field will run the buckets over for sure.

WVMapler - I'm in NW PA about 30 miles south of Erie. I've been pretty lucky the last few years in the deer hunting dept. I credit it all to the PA Game Commission and the new antler restrictions. Our management unit has to have 4 points on one side. I think this is the 4th or 5th year of the antler restrictions and my opinion is that it is defenitely paying off.

maplecrest- I was hoping the apple wouldn't give me any grief. I'm going to scrub one of the barrels real good and see if the apple smell goes away.

royalmaple - Not sure if that was one of them from the trail camera. I was hoping to see the one that is all blurry. He didn't have much on the one side, but his right side was huge. I jumped him brush hogging in the spring, got him on the trail cam and then watched him in the pasture one Sunday morning run a good (but smaller buck) away from a doe he was trailing. Sugaring is tons of fun and even better w/ the little one! :)

sugarmaker - Yeah, I like those pics up in the cemetary, everything just looked right that day I went up there w/ the camera.

- Jake

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jake,

Glad to hear the restrictions are helping a lot. Wish we had some here in WV besides the few I can influence. There are good and bad points to them and sometimes they can discourage others from hunting and we don't want that.

[tappin&sappin]

My opinion is that PA was historically shooting the majority of the small bucks before they had a chance to grow. This I know is fact and can prove it to anyone by showing them the wall in my dads basement. 95% of the racks are scrub.

Another problem was that we just had too many deer. Not monster bucks, but mainly does. And the woods wasn't able to sustain that many deer. Not to mention the crop damages being caused.

Many people think the game commission is out to lunch because they don't see the herds that used to roam penns woods, nor do they often see big bucks. The thing that needs to be remembered is that while there are definetely more large bucks, they get wiser as they grow older.

Two sides to every coin I suppose. I'm on the side that agrees w/ the current deer management plan in PA. At least in our area.

[Russell Lampron]

Why doesn't someone start a thread for trophy deer and what not? This thread was for the number of taps an a 5/16" line.

Russ

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

thank you RUSSELL i agree with you

RICH

[H. Walker]

Another hi-jack!!!

[Sugarmaker]

Darn maple folks always have opinion about something:) Politics, farming bees, deer hunting, guns, deer hunting and maybe even maple.;)

I think the idea of a hunting thread is a good one too!

I'm going to try to limit the number of taps to 20 max on 5/16 gravity lines into a 39 gallon tote. My logic here is that you may get several trees on the line that run great, several that are good and several that are average. The advantage may be that these can average out into a tote and not lose any sap as you might on buckets??

Regards,
Chris

[tappin&sappin]

Fair enough.

I'd still like to hear what the rest of you have to say w/ respect to # of taps on a 5/16 line. No vacuum. :)

[Sugarmaker]

:D :D
Just giggling over here in NWPA. Sorry.:) You guys are the BEST!!! And I do mean that! Thanks for all the folks putting up with us getting off track. I will take full responsibility!

Regards,
Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think about 80 is the max # on a 5/16" line.

[Bucket Head]

My two longest run's have 31 and 44 tap's on them. There's about a 30 foot drop in elevation, over several hundred feet, from the first tap to the collection barrel on each line. No vacuum.

Both run fine. The 44 tap line pull's almost 8lbs. of natural vacuum.

I wish I could find some more tree's like these with a similar downhill grade!

I don't know what the "limit" would be on 5/16 tubing, but you would be safe with this many tap's.

I think the terrain would dictate how many tap's. The flatter the land, then decrease the number of tap's.

Steve

[TapME]

this thread has been great as I want to run some line this coming season. I have about forty taps on one side that will be on a 5/16 to maybe a 1/2" main( this what I have on hand 1/2") to a drum, on gravity this year. Need to cut down the collection time with the addition of a 100 or more roadside trees.

[H. Walker]

You mentioned that you wanted to use 1/2" pipe. I wouldn't use 1/2" pipe for anything, if you figure out the area of the pipes the 1/2" is only 2 1/2 times larger. With the work of trying to fit the 5/16" into 1/2" for 2 or 3 laterals you would be better off to go with the 3/4", it is 6 times larger than 5/16" and the saddles will actually fit. Just my opinion!!

[maplecrest]

for what you pay for 1/2 you might as well go with 3/4. i have way too much 1/2 out there to look back i would have bought all 3/4

[TapME]

the 1/2" was left here when we bought this house, the only reason to use it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have to disagree with you on 1/2". If you only have 50 or 75 taps on gravity and can't expand it any further with additional taps or add vaccuum. I have used it for years as I don't have a lot of trees in one area, but just smaller groups of trees and at peak flow, it don't even fill 25% of the capacity of the 1/2". If you are going to add more taps or possibly vaccum in the future, I agree but for a few isolated trees, pointless in my opinion.

[TapME]

The budget is another reason for not using 3/4. We bought an old house that was crying to be fix and if I was to spend a lot of money in the sugaring things would happen that I would not have any control over. The house is the main priority at this time and sugaring falls down the list if you catch my drift. One of the many thing that were left here was about 100ft. of 1/2" black pipe. With no vac in the future and no place to expand I thought it would be fine. The most taps that could be on that side is 50. My original thought was to use all 5/16.

[Uncle Tucker]

Hi tap
Have you thought of runing two 5/16 lines and hit every other tree so you have 25 taps on each line? I don't know if ti would save $ or not.
Just a thought.

[TapME]

Uncle, no I haven't given any thought until now. Thanks

[andyp]

Okay guys I have been reading all these posts about how many taps you can put on a 5/16 line and how much natural gravity you can create. Then you talk about switching to1/2 or even 3/4 line. I'm still fairly new at this sugarin business and I'll admit I have a lot to learn and I have learned a lot here on the trader. Now I'm a little confused. How can you have any natural vacuum at all switching to the bigger lines? I always thought a line had to be completely full to create any natural vacuum.

Andyp

[royalmaple]

Andy you won't. At the point your sap runs into the 1/2 or 3/4 pipe and it's not full your just going to give the sap an easier way to get to where you want it to go with less restriction.

Lou if you got 1/2 in pipe then use it, but if you had to buy pipe, You could get 3/4 for the same or better price and then you can use regular syle manifolds vs the blue 4 way fittings etc. But use up what you got for sure first.

If you need some pipe let me know I can get you some.

[TapME]

Matt, I had to put a new well in this fall and bought some 1 1/4 thick walled pipe I have about 75' left if you have a use for it. It came in a 200' roll if I'm thinking right.
Andyp, I'm kinda new at all this tubing and vac stuff too, this would be the first tubing that I put up.

[tappin&sappin]

andyp,

My thought on natural vacuum would be that the line shouldn't be completely full. I liken it to when the guys use a vacuum system. They want the line to be no more than a 1/3 full of sap so that the air above the sap in the tube can be drawn toward the vacuum and "drag" the sap with it. At least that is my interpretation of how it works. Irregardless, like royalmaple indicated... The less sap in the tube, the less contact w/ the tube wall and thus less resistance.

Because I am a small producer and at this time only want to put tubing on roadside trees, it is easier for me to buy all of the same size (5/16") and just add collection totes/drums as required.

If I am able to do tubing this year, I will probably try 30 taps on one section of 5/16. If after the first good run, I'm not satisfied w/ how the sap is running through the tube, I will break the run into two sections.

[royalmaple]

Lou-

I'll send you a pm.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

if you have 1/2 i would use it. i have some up on vac with 30 taps and it works fine

RICH

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you have good slope, you could create some major natural vac with 50 taps on 5/16".

[TapME]

Brandon, do you think that 50 taps would fill a 1/2" pipe to create natural vac?

[mountainvan]

I'm not Brancon, see I can't even spell it rite, but I get some natural vaccum on taps going into 1/2" pipe. It is 250 taps and a slope equal to a 10/12 pitch in a roof. When I have a small leak and the saps flowing good, I can find the leak by listening for the whistle. 50 taps should be enough, but you need good slope.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

50 taps will run a pencil size stream or less at full throttle, so I wouldn't expect any natural vacuum out of that size. I have about 170 taps on one section, and the last 45 only for a few feet and it may be helping to pull vaccuum out of the entire system which has aprox 2,000 feet of 5/16" lateral lines and aprox 200 feet of 1/2". Sure it a sight to behold run. It never did much until I add 2 lateral lines to it last year, each with 40+ taps on it and now it is look out! It will push 20 gph in a good hour and these are all hillside woodland trees with little access to water.

[TapME]

mountain man, the slope that I will have is only about 5% maybe a little more. These trees are mostly wooded but they ran fairly well when they did run which was not often. My syrup to tap ratio is way out of whack. Just debating to use 5/16 to 1/2" or just 5/16, still time to do this in the late winter I think.
Brandon, If I got 20 gal an hour it would have been a large part of my sap last year. The total run would be about 200' on 5/16 and that would include the drops.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I would go with the 5/16". I have one run that has about the same grade on it and has aprox 45 taps and it is aprox 600' long and the sap flows in mph thru it.

[TapME]

5/16 is starting to win out on this line. these 40 or so taps will not see any vac for some time, it's just to hard to get it to the evap.

[PA mapler]

What do you guys think about long laterals? I've been trying to hook up some semi-isolated reds and am concerned about the distance between the trees and the distance to the mainline. I just put together 20 more taps, mostly reds, and it took about 350 feet of 5/16th. The slope is good, 10-15%, and I was wondering if I should run this line into the top of an existing lateral (30taps?) to maybe get some good vacuum-things going, or just run it into the main line.

I have a couple of other groups of trees with similar issues, long distances and 15-20 taps max. Thanks!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Beth,

I experimented with long laterals last year and have at least 2 that are 600'+ and each have 40+ taps on them and may others that are 100 to 200' or more. Work good for me and with that kind of slope, you would be fine either way and should definitely get some natural vaccum. What I like about a lot of taps on laterals besides the natural vaccum it seems to create is that the sap is flowing thru the lines with a lot of speed and some force and is keeping the lines cleaner and higher quality sap because it is not staying in the lines very long and I use translucent tubing, so it is not getting very hot. I never tried anything for mainline other than the black and it hurt sap quality. I can give up a little sap for better quality as I can only boil about 3 days each week.

I have another experiment going this coming season and am anxious to see what happens with it.

[gmcooper]

At the last seminar I was at Glen Goodrich talked about getting 30 taps per 500' roll tubing. I know this was several shorter runs with max 5-10 per run.
long laterals with good pitch work, long runs with minimal pitch do not work nearly as well.

[PA mapler]

Thanks for the replies! I think I'll just hook up the reds as best I can, and not worry so much about the long laterals. It seems like the consensus is that it shouldn't hurt production, and may even help. Maybe the natural vacuum will also help pull more sap out of the reds too.

Brandon- I painted my mainline white last year about this time, and the paint has really stuck well on the plastic. Almost none has loosened or chipped off so far. I used cheap oil-based gloss white that I got from Big Lots, and a car-wash mitt to wipe it on. It took about two hours for 1600 feet. I made so many changes last year that I can't say how much it helped, but it seems like it has to keep the lines cooler a little bit.

[Brian Ryther]

Hi all,

This will be my forth year of making syrup and I got permission to tap some roadsides that are all in a line. Enough trees for about 70 taps.

In one spot, I have the potential to put about 30 taps on one line. I'm figuring on using the (5/16 P) from Leader. There is a decent slope there, not sure of exact grade.

My question is, would that be too many taps on the 5/16 line? This is gravity only, no vacuum.

Thanks,
Jake

This link shows a study of natural vaccume. The variables are # of taps, slope, vented vs closed systems.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pubs/fls/OCRPDF/FLS-014.pdf

[dhbiker1]

It has been discussed that using vacuum to have less than 10 taps per lateral. Would this still be the case if there is a y in the lateral or could you add more taps because the branches and still get good vacuum?

[brookledge]

Still shoot for 10 taps per lateral. The section from the Y to the main would still end up with more than 10 taps.
Remember that is just a goal to strive for. I would not worry about some laterals that went over a little. It's just that you don't want to end up with all of your laterals over 10.
Keith