5/16 of flat ground with Shurflo 4008

[bryankloos]

Hey All,

While I'm finishing up bricking the new arch, I'm starting to plan out the tubing installation.
This will be my first year with tubing and with the Shurflo 4008.

I have a total of about 60 trees that I will try to tap, and I'm not quite sure whats the best way to run the tubing...

Here is what I was planning on doing, as the Shurflo system has 4 5/16 inlets in its current configuration.

4 individual runs with approximately 15 trees per run. I was going to run a single line of 5/16 from the furthest tree weaving through the next 14 trees back to the pump.
I would then tap each tree with a tee into the single line to the pump. Is this correct?

Thanks for the help.

Bryan

[Biz]

I think 3/16" tubing is the way to go in this case. Just use 3/16" to 5/16" adaptors sold by Leader or CDL to adapt your star fitting to 3/16". 5/16" could be problematic to use as a "mainline" with the pump, if more than about 5 taps.

Dave

[bryankloos]

Thanks for the reply Dave.
From what I've read recently, 5/16 is best on relatively flat ground with vacuum, hence my inquiry.
I'll let others chime in and see if I'm correct or missing the boat...

[bryankloos]

Another thought would be to break each 15 tree leg run onto 3 laterals (5 trees/lateral) with the 3 laterals combining into one final 5/16 run back to the pump. I suspect this would give better vac transfer??

[HondoLane]

I’m gunna sit back and follow along! I’m in the same boat as you. From what I’ve read and been told by CDL... 5/16 is the way to go, but the 3/16 may also work for such a small operation. I’m looking at 50-60 taps and I’d like to run back to the shack which is 150’ from the edge of the bush.

I have power at the shack and want to put my shurflo at that location. I’m good at running either system except for the whole mainline thing (connections, sizing, etc, etc)

I just picked up a sight level and I’m gunna do some plotting and get real numbers before I make the call.

[Russell Lampron]

You would be better off running a 3/4" mainline and running the 5/16" into that. Build a new manifold for the pump to accept the 3/4" mainline. Run all of your 5/16" laterals into the mainline with 5 taps per lateral being the goal. I wouldn't use 3/16" for anything!

[SmellsLikeSyrupNH]

Last season was my 1st year using Tubing and shurflo pumps. I had 3 small bushes all running on 3/16" into my shurflos.

I found out that my initial ideas were wrong, and had to adjust as the season went along. All 3 of my bushes had approximately 75 taps all going into zig zagged 3/16" tubing that fed into my pumps. I found that having a recirculation line really helped get things going when things froze up. I also found that 3/16" was not large enough to handle all of that sap from that many trees when the lines were really flowing. This year I have installed 5/16" line and will do the same type of setup. I cant run mainlines where my trees are because I have to take it down at the end of each season.

All that being said the Shurflos can absolutely handle 75+ taps on 1 line feeding into it.

5/16" is what I will be using this year to see the difference in output.

Deep cycle Marine batteries is what I used to keep my pumps going. They will run about 30 hours before needing a recharge.

Lastly, last year I bought vacuum gauges but never installed them on my lines. I dont know if I was getting 28Hg or 5Hg....but I wont make that mistake again.

-Scott

[mountainvan]

I have 3 smaller bushes with 100 or less trees that I run shurflow pumps on, deep cycle batteries and solar panels. All have a combination of 5/16 and 3/16 going into 1/2 inch mainline, which fits well with the pump. In my opinion both work well. I get the same sapflow per tap as my 1,000 tree bushes with wet/dry lines.

[bryankloos]

Interesting replies here... Seems there is little consensus on whats best practice.

So, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able to run dedicated mainline this year as I don't have the equipment, and the lines all need to come down end of season.

The manifold of the Shurflo has a 4 start fitting currently. Assuming I want to tap 60 trees, that would put me at 15 trees per leg. Some say the Shurflo will handle this fine, though the science seems to tell me to limit to 5 trees per leg.

As an alternative, I can change to a 6 star fitting which will get me a straight run with 10 trees per leg. I guess this would be better than the above...

Lastly would be to run 5/16 "mainlines" with legs coming off these runs.

My preference would be to run straight legs with 15 trees per line into my 4 star fitting but in reality how much sap would I miss with this type of "less than ideal setup?"

All help and guidance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Bryan

[Super Sapper]

I would agree that science has shown that a mainline with 5 or less taps per lateral will get you your greatest sap if there are no sags and this can be a pain on flat ground for a beginner. I started this way but have moved to 3/16 lines with less than 30 per line to a manifold at the pump.

The reasons why are lack of time to make sure that all lines have sufficient slope at all times. This can change with warmer weather. I have to take down the lines each year.

5/16 does not transfer vacuum as well as 3/16 thus the strive for 5. With 3/16 I have run 400 to 500 foot runs with 20 plus taps and readings showed only about 2 inches loss of vacuum on flat ground going up and down the whole way. This makes things much easier in the woods.

There are drawbacks such as plugging that can start happening after the first year but sanitation practices are being studied. I have opted to replace each year as I have to take it down yearly and cost of it is offset by using new seasonal spouts each year instead of CV, less time to put up and the added sap that studies have shown from new tubing.

I am not advocating this way for large operations or as the best possible way but for smaller operations I feel you will get the most sap on a consistent basis. You could get more if everything is sloped correctly with the 5/16 and mainline but on flat ground and taking it down each year makes it harder. If it was easy everyone would be getting .5 gal per tap plus of syrup.

[bryankloos]

Thanks Super Sapper

Seems I would be better off with the 3/16 for my relatively flat woods.
I'll string up 6 legs on 5/16 this year with no more than 10 taps per line.
I'll also make sure I'm sloping as best possible and have as few sags as possible.
I'll take good notes this year on yields and then probably try 3/16 next year to see firsthand what the increase in yield would be...

With my proposed setup, is there a "guesstimate" as to what percentage of sap I will miss versus running 3/16?

I'm hoping its minimal, under 10-15%.

All said, this is my second year, first on tubing and vac, so its a learning experience. I'll have fun with the kids in the woods making syrup either way.

Thanks.

[Noah's Ark]

Bryan,
Are you coming to the CT producers association meeting in January. It is the 18th at Lyman Memorial High School in Lebanon. Bosworth pumps will be giving a presentation on small scale vacuum systems you might find it helpful. There is also going to be a presentation by Kyle Lothian form H2O on improving quality and quantity of syrup for small scale producers. Unless you already have your tubing and fittings you might want to come to the meeting and talk with some of the members and dealers before you make up your mind. Sometimes in person it is easier to give you better advice on your setup. If you want to come see my setup and sugar house send me a message, I would be happy to help you get setup.
Mat

[bryankloos]

Hi Mat,

Thanks for the info. I'm working on the 18th, but may be able to get up to Lebanon in the mid-AM.
Seems like this would be a good event for me to check out.
I'd also love to see your setup. I've got lots to learn, and trying to keep it fun!

Bryan

[bryankloos]

Hi all,

I've laid out the woods, counted taps/line and have a good grasp on slope. Seems that the slope is flat to slightly downhill. No uphill runs, but no major drop either.
I've decided, after reading more and listening to the advice of others that I will swap out to 3/16 instead of the 5/16 lines that I had planned. For the extra $150 it seems I'll be better served with the 3/16.

I'm going to keep my drops 5/16 as I have the CVS taps and line, and will then Tee into 3/16 laterals.

The 6 lines will have between 10 and 20 taps per line, which will all feed into the 6 way star at the Shurflo 4008. I'm hoping the increased sap yield will offset the extra expense of changing over the 3/16. At least I have time to swap out the lines before I tap...

Life is a learning experience...

Thanks,

Bryan

[bmbmkr]

There's lots of personal experience, and science behind the 3/16 vs 5/16 on flat ground with a pump. I'll share with you my limited experience.

I had 60 taps on 3/16, 5 laterals, the longest 800' and the last 300' was pretty flat. I brought all 5 laterals into a 1/2" PVC manifold that I made for about $15. I used nipples, tees and elbows, each lateral came into to it's own tee with the 5/16-1/2 NPT adapter. I used the 5/16-1/2 NPT adapters in the link below. 4 of the 5 laterals transitioned from 3/16 to 5/16 about a hundred ft from the pump. I ran out of 3/16 and had a couple rolls of 5/16 that I keep for making drops. The 5th transitioned right at the manifold. The 5th lateral is very flat, and had 17 sugars and reds, the tubing barely ran downhill from the first to the last tree, but from there to the pump, a distance of 100', it ran uphill about 3' elevation. The shurflo 4008 had no problem pulling sap all the way from the first tree. Once I got the leaks fixed ( all of these laterals have been up for 3 years but were originally running into the mainline, except for the 5th lateral that ran directly into the tank) I got her pulling 25 in/HG. A couple a runs I got 150 gallons from these 60 trees in 24 hours.

In my mainline, (600' 3/4) I had a couple of star fittings, both 4 and 6, and with 3/16 on high slope, 15-30 taps on each, I could go down there and easily see that the star fittings are a bottleneck. The sap would be backed up 3 or 4 ft up the hill from the stars. I took them off this year and ran each lateral into a DSD saddle. I would have sent you these stars but I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Just my 2 cents. For your sap to pump transition, make you a 1/2" manifold, that way you can add a valve to each tee to isolate any vac leaks that may develop. I also use a union from the manifold to the pump, so I could take the pump off if needed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006OG9WJO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Ben

[bryankloos]

Very interesting Ben,

So from what I'm hearing from you, 60ish taps all running into a 6-way star fitting will be restrictive at the pump.
Seems logical enough, and a simple manifold makes sense if this is the case.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this with the star fittings?

Thanks for the advice.

Bryan

[bmbmkr]

Very interesting Ben,

So from what I'm hearing from you, 60ish taps all running into a 6-way star fitting will be restrictive at the pump.
Seems logical enough, and a simple manifold makes sense if this is the case.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this with the star fittings?

Thanks for the advice.

Bryan


That's just my opinion. As many have stated, Shurflo's don't move a lot of air cfm's, but they move liquid really good. I'm just theorizing that the vacuum would be better distributed to each lateral with a pipe manifold than a star. Then again, the stars are used for sap ladders, which transfer vacuum...

I know that for my gravity lines, the stars were definitely slowing down the sap entering the mainline.

On the shurflo set up I described below, I was pulling all 5 lines, then pumping out a single 5/16 line that ran 100' down the hill, about 8' drop, to my collection tank. On days when I went out to turn it on and the sap was already running, It would be pouring out all 5 laterals, and showing 5-10 in/Hg on the gauge.

One way or another, you're goin to love that little pump!

[VTnewguy]

Number one suggestion would be to make sure you set up a re-circulation line. The shurflo pump works best when it's moving liquid.

[kudu]

This is my first year trying a Shurflo 4008 pump. I have a woods that gradually slopes to the north in 3 different spots and I run mainline to each area. No more than 15' fall for the entire line of close to 600' long. I installed the pump on 3/4" mainline, 225 taps with camlock fittings so I could remove it but still let sap flow when it was too cold to pump in the morning, as I worked until the afternoon when I install the pump. First good run I was getting 15-20 inches of vacuum and probably had 75% more sap flowing on that line. I bought a second pump and installed it on another 3/4" main with 170 taps, it also added about 75% more sap flow with 15-20 inches of vacuum. I have a third line that has only about 75 taps that is all gravity, no pump at this time, but I will get another pump for it next year, I figured I paid for the pump and battery and fittings the first hard run. Got close to 4000 gallons of sap so far this year. I don't like having to pull the pump and battery before every freeze, but no electricity, so I just get the added benefit of part time vacuum.