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steve J
12-22-2019, 06:49 PM
I know many of the large operations start tapping now or very soon. My question is are all the early trappers using cv spouts, or can you tap early using standard spouts as long as you are on tubing?

DrTimPerkins
12-23-2019, 08:33 AM
Large operations tap early because they need the time to get all the tapping done in time for the season. They do this knowing that they might lose a little sap at the far end of the season, but they also could get some sap from any early runs that might occur. With 110 taps, and particularly if you're on gravity tubing, you'd be better off waiting for another month or even two. Tapholes not connected to vacuum will dry out more quickly. If you use new regular spouts with vacuum, tapholes will stay open for decent amount of time. If you use CV they'll last longer.

HondoLane
01-02-2020, 11:59 PM
This is my 3rd year and the previous 2 were buckets. I’ve usually tapped Presidents Day weekend here in PA. I am planning on all tubing this year with mechanical vacuum. Would I be able to get an earlier jump this year?

DrTimPerkins
01-03-2020, 08:54 AM
If this is your first year on tubing, assuming that you tubed it with NEW tubing are using new spouts, and are using vacuum, you should be able to tap fairly early without any substantial drop-off in yield at the end of the season.

canaanmaple
01-03-2020, 02:38 PM
Dr Tim,

not sure how to title this question or where to ask it, but it is kind of related to early tapping. Do you think longer spells of mild temps can precipitate trees budding abnormally early? For example, we had a pretty cold Nov and most of Dec, too cold for sap flow. Then about a week of temps where sap would have run good in late Dec. Followed by some mild temps where it's not even freezing at night, (like now) and looking to go into a cold week, but the overall January outlook is fairly warm, (even though it's a crapshoot more than 7 days out). Just wondering how the trees react to that up and down, and if they will think it's spring and start giving buddy sap before late Feb or March. Last year I felt my sap got buddy about the 3rd week of march even though it still ran good into April. The previous year it was not buddy till late April.

DrTimPerkins
01-03-2020, 08:07 PM
Maple trees have a dormancy requirement for budbreak...basically a certain amount of cold temperature is required before buds are can be primed by warm weather to become active. If you've met that dormancy requirement, then once the heat sum is achieved, buds will break. If that chilling requirement isn't met, it takes MORE of a heat sum and daylength to initiate bud development. Sap takes on a buddy off-flavor at the very early stages of (vegetative) bud swelling. Typically though, maples have a pretty hefty margin of safety built in to prevent early bud break due to possible foliar killing by frost. In the 36 years I've been doing research, I've only seen frost damage to maple leaves twice. Takes a lot to fool Mother Nature. Given the long-range forecast is not often worth much, anything I might say on this matter would be, like you say, a crapshoot.

canaanmaple
01-06-2020, 12:15 PM
Maple trees have a dormancy requirement for budbreak...basically a certain amount of cold temperature is required before buds are can be primed by warm weather to become active. If you've met that dormancy requirement, then once the heat sum is achieved, buds will break. If that chilling requirement isn't met, it takes MORE of a heat sum and daylength to initiate bud development. Sap takes on a buddy off-flavor at the very early stages of (vegetative) bud swelling. Typically though, maples have a pretty hefty margin of safety built in to prevent early bud break due to possible foliar killing by frost. In the 36 years I've been doing research, I've only seen frost damage to maple leaves twice. Takes a lot to fool Mother Nature. Given the long-range forecast is not often worth much, anything I might say on this matter would be, like you say, a crapshoot.

wonder what that dormancy period is? since there were 29 days in Nov with the minimum temp below 32, and 24 days in Dec. And over 2 weeks where the high temp was never even above 32. (us weather nerds keep too much data!)

the current 10 day has 7 days of temps above 32 even as the night time low, starting on Wednesday after this current cold spell. (so only a one day run coming out of the freeze, so dont think I will try to start tapping) I just hope thats not enough to start them budding! Certainly we will get some winter before winter is over, but starting to worry what toll this is taking on our trees :)

DrTimPerkins
01-06-2020, 01:04 PM
Sugar maple bud dormancy is in the range of 2,500-3,000 hrs (roughly 100 days) of temperatures below 40 deg F, but it can vary a good bit by provenance (genetics and environment).

Warmer fall/winter temperatures are associated with slightly lower sugar content sap in the spring.

PoseyCoMark
01-07-2020, 02:24 AM
I'm curious how above average temps for winter can effect sap flow and sugar content. I'm in south/western IN where our Oct had some 90 and 80 degree days for the first two weeks. Nov we maintained mostly 40 and 50 temps with Dec nearly the same. For about three weeks in Dec low temps were below freezing. And Jan has seen only a couple days where temps dropped below freezing. In previous seasons temps are more consistently low through Dec going into Jan.

What type of effect could this have on maple sap? This would be the 5th consecutive season we've tapped here and I haven't seen these weather patterns during this time of year.(We were in shorts and tee shirt comfortably on Christmas day!)

DrTimPerkins
01-07-2020, 10:35 AM
What type of effect could this have on maple sap? This would be the 5th consecutive season we've tapped here and I haven't seen these weather patterns during this time of year.(We were in shorts and tee shirt comfortably on Christmas day!)

Two comments:

1. The influence of any one particular environmental or biological variable on the quantity or sap sugar content of sap has been studied and quantified (for our site here in Underhill, VT), but each variable tends to have only a fairly modest influence at best UNLESS it is severe enough to be catastrophic (drought or insects causing death or trees).
2. The interaction of all the different variables together is very much unclear. So if we have a drought in the summer (bad) and a cold wet winter (good), how does that interaction affect sap? It is too complex at this point to parse out fully. In general however, the good things tend to maintain the level (rather than push it up), while the bad things tend to drag it down.

johnpma
01-07-2020, 12:26 PM
Tapholes not connected to vacuum will dry out more quickly. If you use new regular spouts with vacuum, tapholes will stay open for decent amount of time. If you use CV they'll last longer. Tim how does natural vacuum from 3/16" play into what you have mentioned?

DrTimPerkins
01-07-2020, 02:21 PM
Vacuum is vacuum is vacuum. Four things are critical to success with 3/16" tubing. Decent slope (change in elevation), maintaining a tight (leak-free) tubing system, spout/dropline sanitation, and prevention of plugging.

billschi
01-09-2020, 10:08 PM
We are below zero at night and in the teens during the day. If I were to tap now with new taps and then cap those taps until the maples flow, would the flow be hindered?
In my way of thinking, it seems it would be too cold for any bacteria to exist and if I seal them with a cap, the tap holes wouldn't be able to dry out? Can this be correct?

PoseyCoMark
01-10-2020, 01:35 AM
Thanks Dr. Tim for the insight. We generally see a drop in temps leading through the middle of Jan with temps raising enough to start tapping around the 20th. So we still have some time before any thing is for certain anyhow. I always get antsy and have to refrain from making judgement calls too early. I think I've heard it said here before "We'll know for sure when the season's over" or something to that affect.

DrTimPerkins
01-10-2020, 08:42 AM
We are below zero at night and in the teens during the day. If I were to tap now with new taps and then cap those taps until the maples flow, would the flow be hindered?
In my way of thinking, it seems it would be too cold for any bacteria to exist and if I seal them with a cap, the tap holes wouldn't be able to dry out? Can this be correct?

Anytime the temperature inside the taphole is above freezing, there can be some microbial growth. Unless you tapped aseptically (don't bother trying), the microbes are there. So even tapping and capping "might" result in some degradation of the taphole over time if there were some thaws.

It's kind of like having a piece of chicken in your freezer. Not a problem if you leave it there...it'll last a good long time. But you don't occasionally pull it out and put it on the shelf for 5-24 hrs for 3-5 times during the winter and still expect it's going to be OK. The "cap" you talk about would be the packaging on the chicken....it helps some, but can you fully trust there wasn't something there before it got wrapped?

The real question is...why would you even want to chance it? The big guys with 50,000+ taps have to tap early in order to be done in time for the typical season timing. With 180 taps...wait until it is closer to a more appropriate time.

Sugar Bear
01-10-2020, 12:27 PM
Here in southern CT it is January 10, 2020. I hope it is the same date in the rest of the listening area. I will have 40 taps this year and will not even consider putting my lines back up until it stays below freezing for more then 48 hours.

If your anxious to drill holes I suggest getting a piece of scrap wood and have at it.

I feel very sorry for the guys that have to start tapping trees now!

Although they might be the only ones who make any syrup at all this year.