Thinking About Some Custom Changes to Pan/Evaporator

[kboone1]

I am looking to see if anyone would be willing to share their thoughts on some custom changes I am thinking of making to my current arch & pan. I have included some pictures for reference (forgive the lack of cleanliness I am in the middle of a bunch of changes), plus some pictures of the system in action.

I was debating buying a Smokey Lake Hybrid Hobby Pro 2x6, but just don't want to drop that money right now where I am, so I started looking at my current build and thought of a few much cheaper options to get some more efficiency. However, I don't know a ton of boil science details, so I didn't want to waste money and effort if it was not going to save much time on the back end. I'll explain my current process, then list out my ideas to keep it simple and easy to share replies. Thanks in advance, I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

Right now, I have a 2x4 continuous flow pan that sits above the fire, and a 2x2 plate that sits on the back to provide a spot for preheating sap. I pour the preheated sap into a trickle pan I set on top of the continuous flow pan and let that keep up with the boil by opening a ball valve and just check to make sure my level keeps consistent.

Changes I am thinking about:

1. Adding a 2x2 flat finish pan divided into 2 sections to the front of my current 2x4 flat continuous flow pan. I would have 6 feet of pan over the fire then, with the 2x2 flat finish pan up front above the heat. I think I would create a port from the end of the 2x4 continuous flow into the finish section and then have that split into 2 sections. This would just be welded to the current pan, virtually just using the front of the current pan as the separation between the back pan and front finish pan. I would have to cut the top off the angle at the 4' section on the arch, but that is easy.

2. Adding a custom float box to the side of the flat pan in the back, I just don't know the easiest/most efficient way to do this, so thoughts would be helpful (float valves you have used/sizes of boxes/etc.)

3. I would like to add a warming system, but not sure how that would work with my system. I love hearing other thoughts you may see would work.

I know this is a lot, but I am struggling to pull the trigger on the pan changes without people who may know better than me sharing experiences or other ideas. Thanks again!

Kody

[Sugarmaker]

Kody,
Your going to get all kinds of good suggestions.
I took a good look at your pictures.
You have a good boil going in your pan!
You current pans have value if you were to get just new pans and sell the one your have.
I looks like your arch would need to be reconfigured if you went to a drop flue. But a raised flue set of pans might work.
So I guess my recommendation would be to price a new set of 2 x 6 pans in raised flue style.
Then rework your arch to fit the pans, re-brick, insulate. Should save you some costs and make syrup like crazy! Keep boiling! cost $2000 ish.

Ok back to your plan! Make your 2 foot front pan a cross flow with three channels. Bring the sap from the current rear pan all the way to the front corner of the left side of the front pan, Use a external tube. Then the sap will work its way back two channels and draw off on the right side of the arch at the back of the new pan in its last channel. This will work, cost $300 ish You wont make syrup as fast. Oh ye just keep trickling in cold sap at that back corner of the rear pan and keep firing!
Regards,
Chris

[mol1jb]

What is your current and future tap count?

Not to talk you out of modifying your current pan setup but have you thought of adding a small RO unit? It looks like you have power and plenty of room to build a small RO room to keep above freezing. Depending on your tap count, a small unit like RO bucket would only run you a few hundred dollars and reduce water in sap 30-50% before you even hit the pans. And even if you made all your proposed modifications to your evap you may only up your boil 10-15%.

In my 2018 season I was boiling with a 2x6 raised, no RO. I was drowing in sap all season long, working crazy hours and at the end of the season I was so tired of boiling. This past 2019 season I purchased a small RO, removed 60% water from sap before hitting the pans, had shorter 5-8 hour boils, and never enjoyed a season so much with all the time I saved. The best part was after the season was over, I calculated the amount of money I saved from my reduced time worked and fuel and the RO already paid for itself.

If it was me, I would buy the small RO first, do no modifications to the evap, see how the season goes and then if you would still need more efficiencies go with a pan upgrade. The RO would definitely be the best bang for your buck in terms of time and fuel reduction.

[kboone1]

I currently have 150 taps on 3/16 gravity, almost all pulling max vac. Ill probably stay here for a few years and get in a system then see whats up, I'm not a fan of being behind the 8 ball. For the RO, I already have an RO Bucket 15, so that's all I'm going to do for now on that front. I have mostly reds on an old strip so I'm coming in under 1% most of the season and getting it to 3-4%, so no complaining there! My trees produce like mad though, so I have a lot of low quality sap to work through.

Chris, I have definitely thought a lot about changing to the raised, but just not where I need to put my money at the moment. Your thoughts on connecting the front finish pan to the current pan would be 2 separate pans connected by an external tube, not attaching the pans and creating a continuous column from one pan to the other then a change of direction? So virtually 2 individual pans connected by say a 1"-2" tube?

[Sugarmaker]

Kody,
That is correct. moving the sap through at least a 1 inch tube to the new cross flow front pan. Syrup likes to be made where it is the hottest fire that would be right where your ramp starts, or 2 foot back from the front. I can see why you need more boiling capacity you could have 200 plus gallons of sap on a good run. Your rig would take 8-10 hours to boil that down. My guess is your maybe doing 15 gallons of sap per hour? The new pan may bump that to 18 ish?? Maybe do the pan and get a second RO bucket?
Regards,
Chris

[kboone1]

Chris,

That is correct about on all points. On a great run day, I am between 200 and 300 gallons of sap intake (averaging about .7%-.8%, which sucks but it's what I have to work with right now). On a 6 hour boil including start up time and cool down time, I averaged 15.5 GPH boil rate. This is on a 2x4 with just warming sap and trickling in. I was hoping by adding the 2x2 syrup pan to the front I could get to an average of 20 or so if I can get the float box and warmer figured out. Prior to this season I have batched everything each night to cut down on time, but I want to start to get into using the continuous flow the way they should be and getting a week or something out of each set to cut down on some of the headaches involved in batching. It's a goal, but we will see what I can do. Any other ideas from anyone would be much appreciated, thank you so much for the thoughts already, really appreciate this forum's value!

Kody

[Super Sapper]

I agree with Chris's design. There are threads on making a float box if you would like to try making one.

[kboone1]

Super Sapper,

I actually checked those out this morning, and already ordered some things to get that going. Great ideas on here, and I think they should work on my rig pretty easily.

Any specific comments from anyone on how big to go for the connection and tubing from the main pan to the syrup pan? I am not familiar with any positives or negatives of larger or smaller, so any thought is appreciated.

Kody

[maple flats]

I agree with Chris (Sugarmaker). If you change anything, add a 2x2 pan and route it as Chris suggests. Then get another RO Bucket, either a 15 or 20 complete unit or kit. Running both of them in series will get you what you need. If you go with the added RO bucket, run the bigger one first, then as you get enough concentrate from that, run it thru your smaller one. To keep up with your boil you may need to lower the operating pressure, which will give you more concentrate but at a slightly lower sugar %.
An RO upgrade is far better use of your hard earned $ than a new pan.

[Ed R]

I have .75 inch copper between my pans and if I was to do it again I would go 1 inch or larger. It connects a 2x2 pan to a 2x4 pan.

[maple flats]

Back when I had an old (lead free soldered) Leader 2x6 it had a 2x3 syrup and a 2x3 drop flue pan, it was reversible, so it had a 1.25" copper pipe joining the pans on each side. The parts were joined with a semi flexible connector and SS band clamps on each. I also suggest 1" or 1.25" to join the pans.
My currant 3x8 has one outside the pan SS pipe (1.5") for the same side reversible flow to the front pan. It connects to each of 2 float boxes, one on the front cross flow channel, one on the rear cross flow channel (4 total channels). The 1.5" works very well and the flow from the back pan even to the front channel still is very hot, as the boil is instant as incoming concentrate enters the forward channel. I'm sure some heat is lost but it is minimal according to the boil. To switch from one direction to the other, I just close one supply valve, move the float from the original supply box to the new supply box and open the valve to supply that float box. Maybe you might even want to design a reversible flow front pan.
In my case, at any time while boiling one float box is the supply, the other is without a float and it is my draw off which has an auto open valve. I have an electric temperature sensor on each and only one auto draw valve. As I change the flow, I just move the auto draw valve from one box to the other and switch which probe is controlling the valve.

[kboone1]

Dave (or anyone else!),

With your experience, do you see the benefit of making my system reversible since I am only working on flat pans? I am struggling to see the value over cost/time to do it with the additions it would take. I know I would save on some cleaning time, but with a flat pan setup with one pipe connection from one pan to the other, I don't think it would be that bad to clean on a non-boil evening/night. Also, do you see an issue with not having the float boxes at the exit of the sap pan and entrance of the syrup pan, or will that want to airlock and not flow well. I am thinking if I do a 2" pipe, my level will always be under that and it shouldn't airlock, but I could be missing something. Just making sure before I take this thing to a fab shop, I am doing the most beneficial thing, whether that is more or less!

Thanks again everyone for the ideas and thoughts!

Kody

[kboone1]

Dave (or anyone else!),

With your experience, do you see the benefit of making my system reversible since I am only working on flat pans? I am struggling to see the value over cost/time to do it with the additions it would take. I know I would save on some cleaning time, but with a flat pan setup with one pipe connection from one pan to the other, I don't think it would be that bad to clean on a non-boil evening/night. Also, do you see an issue with not having the float boxes at the exit of the sap pan and entrance of the syrup pan, or will that want to airlock and not flow well. I am thinking if I do a 2" pipe, my level will always be under that and it shouldn't airlock, but I could be missing something. Just making sure before I take this thing to a fab shop, I am doing the most beneficial thing, whether that is more or less!

Thanks again everyone for the ideas and thoughts!

Kody

[Super Sapper]

To make your syrup pan reversible all you need to do is make sure the fittings where the sap enters the syrup pan and the syrup leaves are the same size and location from the ends of your pan. You should be able to pick it up and turn it around and everything should line up the same.

You will only need a float box where it enters the sap (4 foot) pan and this should keep everything level. You would only use 2 float boxes if you had a raise flue pan.

[maple flats]

If your new 2x2 will also be an open flat pan, it will not help much.
Super, every reversible flow pan I ever had used 2 boxes on the syrup pan, one where concentrate entered from the back pan and one is a draw off. The first was a Leader 2x6 drop flue, the next was a Grimm 3x8 raised flue and the current on is a Thor 3x8 raised flue with same side draw. Each of those had 2 float boxes on the syrup pan, the 2 with raised flue also had (or have) another float box on the flue pan. Yes a drop flue only uses one float box. This is true of all older designed pans, there are some using new channel designs that only have 1 on a drop flue and 2 on a raised flue set up.
Yes technically on a drop flue there is only 1 float box where cold sap enters the system, the draw off is at a second box, that then becomes the inlet point and where the sap used to enter the front pan then becomes the draw off but on drop flue neither of those get a float.

[Sugarmaker]

Kody,
Being old like I am and having time to think a little more, you have a point about changing sides. Keeping sugarsand at bay is always good!
So just make your front pan a 3 partition pan with the partitions running front to back same as your rear pan. Have a sap exit on both sides of your rear pan. Have the sap exit holes back about 6 inches from the front of the back pan. This will allow you to add a ball valve for shutting off each side. Bring the pipe forward to a tee into the front pan both sides. Now the tee can have sap enter the pan or close the ball valve from the rear pan, and be used as a draw off for that side. Should work fine! Keep boiling!
This still puts the final syrup to be made at the back channel of the syrup pan. Just remember this is not going to set the world on fire for increased production rates but will get everything out of your fuel you can get. Plan to rebirck that arch too.
As far as adding sap to the rear pan with the new configuration to draw on both sides you need to add the sap into the channel of the rear pan on the side your drawing from. That makes the sap travel the farthest in the system.
Regards,
Chris

[kboone1]

Hey everyone!

I wanted to start out by saying thank you so much for the time invested in this thread. I know many of you probably thought this was something pretty simple, and after I learned from you guys, I would agree it was not as difficult to throw together as I originally thought.

That being said, however, I spent yesterday getting quotes on the stainless material for the front pan, the fab costs for our local stainless guys to get that cut, broke and welded, and the fittings for everything. Let's just say, my mind was blown by the cost, I would probably have about $1,000 in the project for the new pan material, labor and Tri Clover fittings and accessories, and that is if the guy could get the work done in only 5 hours on the pan. When I started out with this project, I really was trying to be conscious of the money involved in getting the upgrades completed, and being a numbers guy, I really was unsettled by the cost for what benefit I was going to get out of this.

Soooo, I contacted Smokey Lake and through some great discussion they put me on a 2x6 Hybrid Pro pan that I can drop on my evaporator with very little mods (dimensions are almost perfect), and when I look at the cost/benefit, I can't help but think I would be pretty silly to invest a grand in the flat pan modification idea when I can spend a little over double that and have a drop in boil system that will do me great for years, as well as give me room to grow my tap count pretty easily. So that's what I am going to do! I know these hybrid pro pans do not offer what some would want, but for the price point and my stage in syrup making, I believe this is going to be a great upgrade and last me for years.

Dave - I took your advice on the RO upgrade as well, and got with Carl at RO Bucket. We are going to add a larger pump and an additional membrane to my current RB15 Kit, and hopefully it will about double the output of concentrate. Very reasonably priced and well worth the small cost.

Sugarmaker - your initial response was pretty accurate, it really is easier and probably much more beneficial in the long run to invest in the better product and have a much more fun time doing it!

I can't say thank you guys enough, I really appreciate all you have put in to my request and questions! Looking forward to seeing how all our seasons go!

Kody

[Sugarmaker]

Kody,
Very easy for us to set on the couch and spend your money!:) I believe you made a good move and I have see the SL equipment and it is nice. Now go get that arch ready!
Keep boiling!
Regard,
Chris