Using cv spouts on drops to buckets

[Pdiamond]

I have a question for all you experienced traders that use the cv spouts. Would it be beneficial for me to use these on the 5 gallon containers I set up for gathering on the drops either single or as a double with a tee depending on the size of the tree. Or do I continue to just use the disposable 5/16 spiles. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks Pat

[Super Sapper]

At about $.12 a foot for 5/16 it would cost approx. the same to just use new tubing and seasonal spout. With that I would go with a new drop line and seasonal spout.

[littleTapper]

I use CVs on my drop-to-bucket taps and have had those run hard all the way into April from an early-February tapping date. Seems worth it to me if you have a chance of a relatively long season and/or wish to reuse your drop tubing.

[maple flats]

According to research I think I read that CV taps on gravity are of little advantage. I suggest seasonal spouts. I might however use CV spouts if on 3/16 drops, because since some of the sap in the drop as the tree freezes can be pulled back up. Early in the season would not be an issue, but late season it could be an issue.

[Pdiamond]

Thank you for all the information. I'll stick with the seasonal spiles and 5/16 tubing.

[fisheatingbagel]

According to research I think I read that CV taps on gravity are of little advantage. I suggest seasonal spouts. I might however use CV spouts if on 3/16 drops, because since some of the sap in the drop as the tree freezes can be pulled back up. Early in the season would not be an issue, but late season it could be an issue.I'm wondering though if there would be benefits in minimizing bacteria growth during the season. Or maybe without any real vacuum, i.e. drop to a bucket, they wouldn't help. I guess their primary use is in keeping sap from backing into the hole, rather than bacteria from the air.

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[DrTimPerkins]

I'm wondering though if there would be benefits in minimizing bacteria growth during the season. Or maybe without any real vacuum, i.e. drop to a bucket, they wouldn't help. I guess their primary use is in keeping sap from backing into the hole, rather than bacteria from the air.

The CV system was designed to work in vacuum tubing system. The ball is actuated by liquid or air flow (pressure difference). We have never tried it in gravity settings, however Steve Childs (Cornell University) has. You should look that information up (most of it is in the Cornell Tubing Notebook), but to summarize...he did find a benefit to using CVs on gravity in terms of incrased sap yield, however it was at a lower amount than in vacuum systems (not greatly surprising). The real question is not whether you can collect more sap with CVs over regular spouts (you can), but whether it is economical to do so. Again, in general, it is, but the economics are closer (lower profit margin) on gravity than they are on vacuum (good profit margin).

[Sugar Bear]

I speak in terms of 5/16" tubing only and have no experience with 3/16"

On gravity I get more sap on individual buckets with short and straight drops then a assortment of sets of connected lines into say one larger 50 gallon tank, even with good vertical drop.

No doubt about it on the trees I tap.

My explanation for this is that T's impede flow. Muck like rocks in a river impede flow. In fact it is not uncommon for people to make nice swimming holes in Vermont with rocks.
The more T's you put in you tubing the more your tubing tries to make a swimming hole. And i would wonder if this is the real reason 5/16" fails to create much natural vacuum. RATS!

It does seem that the CV spout last a little longer into the season for me then the regular clear spout. For example the CV taps are more likely to make it through a early march warm spell then the regular taps.
But in my experience it seems to me to be a fairly nominal difference in life span of the taps.

Individual buckets give me more sap, but I have a tough time with individual 5 gallon buckets overflowing on me. And can't afford bigger individual buckets. So I use both set ups.

[fisheatingbagel]

I speak in terms of 5/16" tubing only and have no experience with 3/16"

On gravity I get more sap on individual buckets with short and straight drops then a assortment of sets of connected lines into say one larger 50 gallon tank, even with good vertical drop.

No doubt about it on the trees I tap.

My explanation for this is that T's impede flow. Muck like rocks in a river impede flow. In fact it is not uncommon for people to make nice swimming holes in Vermont with rocks.
The more T's you put in you tubing the more your tubing tries to make a swimming hole. And i would wonder if this is the real reason 5/16" fails to create much natural vacuum. RATS!

It does seem that the CV spout last a little longer into the season for me then the regular clear spout. For example the CV taps are more likely to make it through a early march warm spell then the regular taps.
But in my experience it seems to me to be a fairly nominal difference in life span of the taps.

Individual buckets give me more sap, but I have a tough time with individual 5 gallon buckets overflowing on me. And can't afford bigger individual buckets. So I use both set ups.Thanks for sharing. I have only used buckets/bags as all my trees are in a residential area and tubing just won't fly. I'm planning on trying cv spouts with 5/16 tubing directly into buckets; some trees will have 2 taps with a tee, then to a bucket. My experiment is to see if those taps remain viable longer than the regular open bucket spouts. I expect the flow to be diminished some due to the cv with no vacuum. I'm planning on having the end of the tube submerged so there is minimal air getting into the tubing.

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[DrTimPerkins]

I'm planning on having the end of the tube submerged so there is minimal air getting into the tubing.

If you do it this way, make sure your droplines into the buckets are long (24"+) to prevent sap from being drawn back out of the bucket when the trees freeze. Trees can pull liquid up a tubing line 15-18" due to the suction created during a freeze cycle.

The other problem with doing it this way is that the liquid in the bucket can freeze, and the sap won't be able to start running again until it thaws.

A better approach to avoid having air moving into the tubing might be to rig up a simple loop in the tube to act as a liquid trap.

[Sugar Bear]

I use the tight sealing lids on the 5 gallon pales. Walmart sells them for 1.17 each. In my experience, the better sealed they are the longer the taps seem to stay active. And certainly CV taps are just another means by which to restrict air flow and or sap flow back in the hole.

BUT ...
Last year I had 8 taps on one line leading into a single hole on the lid of a 50 gallon tank. Half way through the season I separated the 8 into two sets of 4 with two lines into separate holes
in the lid and my sap yield went way way up on these 8 taps. Is that because I had better venting after the second hole was put in the lid????

It also seems that if your collection tank is too tightly sealed you create back pressure in the tank, so it seems like the tanks may benefit from pinhole venting if they are very tightly sealed.

Watch out for that. In any size tank I guess.

I also use Chinese finger traps to tie off tubing runs both for and aft. I am wondering if the finger trap may be closing down the tubing a bit.

But its amazing how many things you would think are not doing anything are very much doing something.

Sometimes to the benefit .... sometimes to the detriment.