5/16 on semi flat land. Vac or no vac?

[needmoremaples]

Ok so I'm buying some land and have about 600 taps I'm capable of tapping. It has a creek running thru it but this is Wi, so it's mostly flat. Is there a % slope needed for 5/16 tubing without vac? Can I just add vac later?

This woods will definitely get muddy so I'm wondering if I should just skip the buckets. I have some home made tubing tools i built and have some experience installing 3/16 but 5/16 is pretty new and no experience with mechanical vacuum.

In my lowest spot its semi close to where the sugar shack will be but a little up hill. There is power there so I'm thinking a 2nd pump to go up to the shack eventually.

It's really out of fun thinking this out. I still need to figure out a backup plan for selling extra sap I dont need. I made 50 gallons on a 2 month season before and have added a 2nd cooker about double my original barrel stove and 2nd is 2x4 pan. Both are insulated, bricked and auf. Then while to sell syrup to. I hate the idea of selling in bulk.

[Biz]

You might consider 3/16 tubing with a diaphragm pump or two. The 3/16 should work well on flat terrain as long as the pump is running. Max 30-40 taps per line. Last year I tapped a nearly flat section of 40 red maples on 3/16 tubing near a swamp, with a slight uphill to the pump, and it ran great on my Shurflo setup. I have a video posted. You could use multiple battery powered diaphragm pumps, or a Guzzler if you have access to AC power and the lines all come to the same location.

Dave

[needmoremaples]

Hey Dave, I've seen your setup and I think it's a great product. Why 3/16 over 5/16 tho? No issue with suckback and no problem with plugged fittings using 5/16.

[Super Sapper]

3/16 will transfer vac better than the 5/16 on level ground. There is a reason they say "strive for 5" on 5/16 lats in a traditional system. The big thing to remember is you have to have mechanical vac or the 3/16 will have too much back pressure. Without slope the 5/16 will not do a lot better without mechanical vac either. You do have to watch for plugs and wash or replace your lines but I think overall you are better off with the 3/16 for production in this situation.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I'd like to see a comment from Dr Tim regarding vacuum transfer in 3/16 vs 5/16 with limited slope

[n8hutch]

I would advise against putting 3/16 up on anything less than 10% slope . It was never intended for shallow slopes like this, it will work great the first year with clean brand new everything. Most people I know including myself saw a significant drop off in year 2 and consecutive years. Due to plugged ts and friction loss from dirty/ not new anymore tubing. Sure you can put vacuum on it and it helps ,but if your going to run vac anyway why not run 5/16 and get proven results of a half gallon per tap or better.

3/16 is cheaper to setup initially because of more taps per lateral = less saddles and potentially less tubing used per tap, and you can get some natural vacuum if you have good slope. Tubing runs cheaper Those are the pros.

The cons are ,less forgiving of leaks,needs to be cleaned , more maintenance damages easier, plugs easier, and needs to be replaced sooner. Doesn't work well on flat ground at all if vacuum pump is broken.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

It's been proven that 3/16" is not the best option for flat areas but there are a fair amount of people on here that insist it has worked well for them. But over the long term, there is no way 3/16" with vac outperforms 5/16" with vac on flat ground assuming that the install is correct for both situations, 20-30 taps per lateral for 3/16" and 5-8 for 5/16". It just doesn't make sense. Take a piece of each tubing and look at the difference in cross sectional area then think about it for a second. Which one will pull more sap in year 5 when the tubing has some crud in it, especially on flat ground?

[mol1jb]

Ok so I'm buying some land and have about 600 taps I'm capable of tapping. It has a creek running thru it but this is Wi, so it's mostly flat. Is there a % slope needed for 5/16 tubing without vac? Can I just add vac later?

This woods will definitely get muddy so I'm wondering if I should just skip the buckets. I have some home made tubing tools i built and have some experience installing 3/16 but 5/16 is pretty new and no experience with mechanical vacuum.

In my lowest spot its semi close to where the sugar shack will be but a little up hill. There is power there so I'm thinking a 2nd pump to go up to the shack eventually.

It's really out of fun thinking this out. I still need to figure out a backup plan for selling extra sap I dont need. I made 50 gallons on a 2 month season before and have added a 2nd cooker about double my original barrel stove and 2nd is 2x4 pan. Both are insulated, bricked and auf. Then while to sell syrup to. I hate the idea of selling in bulk.

Based on the initial post, without vacuum 5/16 is the way to go. With or without vac you will need the lines to be perfectly pitched down to the collection point. I would start with what you hope is the eventual goal and work backward from there. Set up a mainline that is capable of capturing your final tap count and start with what you can manage and build up from there. Even if you don't go with vacuum upfront I would set up the tubing and mainline to easily incorporate it in the future.

[needmoremaples]

Yes that is what I'm thinking. Go with a diaphram pump and go bigger in the future. I'm not horribly far from power but still do 12v pump. In future do a better vac pump

[Russell Lampron]

When I did my initial tubing set up I was told by a seasoned sugar maker to set up my 5/16" on gravity like I would for vacuum. His recommendation was to "Strive for 5" taps per lateral into a 3/4" or larger mainline with 2% slope or more. I followed his advice and had good results for a lot of years before I moved out of those woods.

When I did mine there was no such thing as 3/16" so I can't say which is better but have heard a lot of horror stories from guys that have tried it. I wouldn't try it even if I had good slope based on what others have said about it.

As far a selling sap goes you would have to check with the local producers in your area. If there's a buyer that is close enough for you to deliver it to, go for it. If not only set up and tap as many trees as you can handle and add more as you upgrade equipment.

You didn't say whether your trees are sugars or not but if you're tapping reds you are going to need to put vacuum on it right away. They run good on vacuum but are finicky on gravity.

[needmoremaples]

How many taps can go into 3/4 mainline? Those will be the trunk line, and will go to 1- 1/4 or 1- 1/2 main o the pump I think.

[maple flats]

Describe a little more what the land is like. Use a hand level and get some real numbers and learn your natural walking pace and then pace off the distances. That info will help.
However, I have good success using 3/16 on flat ground, however I use mechanical vacuum at 26-27" using a piston pump, not a small diaphragm pump.
The experts all say I lose production my way, but I look at what I get vs. the cost of setting it up. Last year on my sugarhouse woods I had 325 taps, and all but about 30 were on 3/16. Those 30 or so were set up before I started changing over to 3/16. On my land from the highest point on the land I have a 6' change in elevation in 800' distance. Before I started using 3/16 to pull sap as an experiment in 3 laterals from several taps that were out past that "high" spot I actually tapped some trees using a ladder to get some elevation to the main line. I then decided to experiment and I connected those trees to the mainline using 3/16. My only gauge on production was and still is just to watch the sap/air/sap/air train move thru the tubing and to the mainline. After 1 year of that ( 2017 season) on about 20 taps total, I added some new taps pulling sap from an area across a driveway from the sugarhouse in an area that was 6' lower at the far end than at the spot where I then ran 2 lines, 3/16 up a tree next to the driveway, climbing to a height of 15', going over that driveway (sags to about 14' when it has sap in it) to another tree, then it slopes down to where it ties into the mainline with 26-27" vacuum on it. One of those lines was 25 taps on sugars, the other was 24 taps on reds for a total of 49 taps. Besides the taps and tees, it cost me about 3 rolls of 3/16 tubing (1500'). From the doorway on the sugarhouse I could see the sap flow as it fell down about 11' with a slope of about 40% to the main. The only bad part of that was that it was hypnotizing. (that was the 2018 season) Yes, I likely would have gotten more sap if I'd used conventional methods using the vacuum and sap ladders or make the high point the end taps and run out the roughly 450' to the low spot, then pump the sap back to my tanks, but the cost would have been far higher. It worked so well that the 2019 I added several more laterals all in 3/16 pulling from lower sections of my land and I also changed over some of my old 5/16 laterals to 3/16 so by then all but about 30 taps out of 325 were in 3/16 laterals.
When I do this I put 15-25 taps on a lateral and all taps are on 5/16 drops. Then each lateral flows into one of 2 mainlines, each mainline is 1" diameter and each has 2 sap ladders to get it to the vacuum pump. The only taps at this point that do not climb a sap ladder are the 30 that are not yet on 3/16 laterals because they are along the area from the last sap ladder to the vacuum pump. In 2018 I made .52 gal/tap and in 2019 I made .49 gpt.
This next season I'm shooting for about 450 taps, with all new taps using 3/16 laterals. Could I do better, you bet I could, but at a hug investment in infrastructure to do it. Each year every tap except some Zap Bac taps are new, and the Zap BAc taps are used 2 seasons, I also use a new tee every year. Even on the Zap Bac taps. I have decided to dis continue the Zap Bac, having used up my inventory of them in the 2019 season, in 2019 I also finished off all seasonal spouts I had. From now on I plan to use my old favorite, the CV2.

[needmoremaples]

Tomorrow will be a nice day out and I'll string up a 1000 ft roll of 3/16 to use it as a level and see how I do. Im all soft maple(red). Haven't seen any silver leaves yet but they could be there. This area doesn't have any sugar maples that I know of. In my yard 20 miles away I have 2 large full crown sugar maples so they will grow. The land we are speaking about is pretty wet at the bottom near a swamp. Some spots are holding water that I'm hoping to drain. Maybe I'll set up where trenches go tomorrow too. This land I do not own yet for 2 weeks but I have permission to be on it. I have 600 taps flagged out. Lots of oak maple and birch but the oaks are on one corner heavy and the maples are on another corner heavy. Maybe birch tapping too!

[DrTimPerkins]

I'd like to see a comment from Dr Tim regarding vacuum transfer in 3/16 vs 5/16 with limited slope

I've been away for a bit (for the annual maple conference, then some fun).

Short answer.... 3/16" tubing is counter-indicated on flat ground. Will you get sap if you do it? Sure. Will you get more sap if you do it with vacuum? Yup. Is it the optimal approach? Definitely not. Without vacuum you should definitely use 5/16" on flat ground. Even with vacuum you should use 5/16" tubing on flat ground. If you do go with 3/16" tubing on flat ground, you'll get less than with 5/16" (and if it is really flat or really long you'll get far less). Either way, with 3/16" tubing you need to be extremely vigilant about plugging, and either sanitize (chlorine most likely) OR replace all the fittings (tees, unions, saddles) at least every other year to maintain good production levels.

Think of it this way...when you drink out of a glass with a straw, you can use a regular straw and get a normal amount of liquid with a normal amount of suction. While you could use a coffee-stirrer and suck hard and get liquid out of it, you'll get less reward for your efforts. Despite that, some people will choose the coffee stirrer and be happy with it.

[DrTimPerkins]

I would advise against putting 3/16 up on anything less than 10% slope . It was never intended for shallow slopes like this, it will work great the first year with clean brand new everything. Most people I know including myself saw a significant drop off in year 2 and consecutive years. Due to plugged ts and friction loss from dirty/ not new anymore tubing. Sure you can put vacuum on it and it helps ,but if your going to run vac anyway why not run 5/16 and get proven results of a half gallon per tap or better.

3/16 is cheaper to setup initially because of more taps per lateral = less saddles and potentially less tubing used per tap, and you can get some natural vacuum if you have good slope. Tubing runs cheaper Those are the pros.

The cons are ,less forgiving of leaks,needs to be cleaned , more maintenance damages easier, plugs easier, and needs to be replaced sooner. Doesn't work well on flat ground at all if vacuum pump is broken.

Excellent answer.

[Biz]

I've been away for a bit (for the annual maple conference, then some fun).

Short answer.... 3/16" tubing is counter-indicated on flat ground. Will you get sap if you do it? Sure. Will you get more sap if you do it with vacuum? Yup. Is it the optimal approach? Definitely not. Without vacuum you should definitely use 5/16" on flat ground. Even with vacuum you should use 5/16" tubing on flat ground. If you do go with 3/16" tubing on flat ground, you'll get less than with 5/16" (and if it is really flat or really long you'll get far less). Either way, with 3/16" tubing you need to be extremely vigilant about plugging, and either sanitize (chlorine most likely) OR replace all the fittings (tees, unions, saddles) at least every other year to maintain good production levels.

Think of it this way...when you drink out of a glass with a straw, you can use a regular straw and get a normal amount of liquid with a normal amount of suction. While you could use a coffee-stirrer and suck hard and get liquid out of it, you'll get less reward for your efforts. Despite that, some people will choose the coffee stirrer and be happy with it.

Good explanation, makes sense, but wonder if it applies to a couple cases I have experienced. I have had issues with pump surging when running a short branch of 5/16" tubing (just a handful of taps) on a small diaphragm pump. It was on flat ground but the line had sags. No mainline, just the 5/16 tubing. The problem disappeared when I swapped the 5/16 tubing out for 3/16 tubing. My thought was that the sags and air pockets in the 5/16" tubing were causing the problem, which is not seen with the smaller tubing.

I have another place where there is a few feet of rise from the last tap to the pump, where the 3/16" tubing worked very well - again no mainline, just 35 taps on 3/16 in a mostly flat, swampy area of red maples on a diaphragm pump. I can't see how 5/16 tubing would work better in either of these cases, where there may be sags in the tubing. The 3/16" tubing seems more forgiving of the sags. Thoughts?

Dave

[DrTimPerkins]

Good explanation, makes sense, but wonder if it applies to a couple cases I have experienced. I have had issues with pump surging when running a short branch of 5/16" tubing (just a handful of taps) on a small diaphragm pump. It was on flat ground but the line had sags. No mainline, just the 5/16 tubing. The problem disappeared when I swapped the 5/16 tubing out for 3/16 tubing. My thought was that the sags and air pockets in the 5/16" tubing were causing the problem, which is not seen with the smaller tubing.

It is almost impossible to tell what is happening on in terms of sap movement by looking at the lines if they have air and sap in them since they intermix and the sap slides past the air in both directions. The only real way of knowing how much liquid is moving is by measuring it at the end when it comes out.


I have another place where there is a few feet of rise from the last tap to the pump, where the 3/16" tubing worked very well - again no mainline, just 35 taps on 3/16 in a mostly flat, swampy area of red maples on a diaphragm pump. I can't see how 5/16 tubing would work better in either of these cases, where there may be sags in the tubing. The 3/16" tubing seems more forgiving of the sags. Thoughts?

This is a very different case in that you are purposefully sacrificing maximum yield to get something because of the situation (pulling uphill). In this case, the capillarity of the tubing, the cohesiveness of the sap, and the movement of air bubbles in the smaller diameter tubing are all helping to prevent the sap from moving back down the slope, which is the same thing as saying that friction is your friend in this particular case, whereas it is not when you're trying to go across a flat area or downhill. While you will get something in this instance, it will be less than it would if you ran it downhill due to the friction/backpressure of the system.

A different analogy. You're pulling a sled, and that sled is connected to another sled, and another, and another, and so on.... (those sleds are sap droplets, which stick together). You push the first sled off the top of a hill. That sled helps to pull the next, and so on (gravity is pulling the sleds downhill, overcoming the friction with the ground). How much "energy" did it take to move all the sleds down the hill, especially once you got them going downhill. Not much, especially when a number of the sleds are already past the crest of the slope...at that point the lead sleds are pulling the others down.

When you hit flat ground, the sleds slow down and eventually stop. This is due to friction with the ground. So now you have to use energy to pull the train of sleds. It is harder to get them to move, and you have to keep exerting energy by pulling (or pushing) or they stop moving again. It takes added energy to move the train.

Now turn around and pull the same train of sleds up the hill. It's going to take even more exertion to get those sleds up the hill. In this case, it is the tree stem pressure (perhaps along with a pump suction) pushing (pulling) the sap up.

Only difference with a pump is that it isn't just you pulling or pushing the sled, you've got another person (pump) to help you so it seems easier, but the amount of energy expended is the same. Going downhill the energy comes from gravity, on flat areas you have input energy to overcome friction. Uphill you need even more energy to overcome friction and change the relative height.

[Biz]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Dr. Tim. Love the analogies, very helpful is understanding what is happening and why.

On my surging issue from a couple years ago, the flow was not good on the 5/16" line because when flow drops, so does vacuum (due to the diaphragm pump characteristics) and therefore total amount of sap production. I think that a 5/16" line on flat terrain with droops or sags will not perform as well as a 3/16" line, although a well pitched 5/16" line or mainline would yield the best production. This might be something I can improve on another year. Always working to improve things...

Dave

[DrTimPerkins]

You're welcome.

To continue the analogy, in the case of sagging lines, you've pushing and pulling the sap up and down a series of small hills. Takes energy to do that.

[Sugarmaker]

Folks,
Dr Tim's analogies are super.
My only comment to the original posters questions would be: 5/16 lines down hill, tight, and follow the creek. Raise the upper end as much as you can without standing on a ladder to tap. Tap the two sugar maples in the yard too! Have fun and make some syrup!
Regards,
Chris

[needmoremaples]

I found 2 stainless tanks I'm going to pick up this weekend. They are roughly 500 gallon bulk tanks where there is 2 covers on top. They only sit 2-3 ft high so that should help with pitch.

[mike103]

Chiming in on another 3/16 5/16 dilemma. I have 30 taps I wanted to put on shurflo and 3/16, 600' run. Slope is negative 1% or flat in bush, and 300 ft towards pump changes to positive 2%. I was going to changeover to 5/16 at elevation change, tight, straight, slight downward to pump 300' to cut down on friction with zero laterals. Would it be worth the changeover?

[n8hutch]

Raise your lateral to maintain 1% or better slope and run all 5/16. Avoid 3/16 . 3/16 is best suited for 10% slope or more you are going to get less sap with the 3/16 even with vac, keep the 5/16 tight and a nice slope to your shurflo pump, keep the pump wet and you will get the most sap your going to get, , 2- 15 tap lines would be better .

[Russell Lampron]

Chiming in on another 3/16 5/16 dilemma. I have 30 taps I wanted to put on shurflo and 3/16, 600' run. Slope is negative 1% or flat in bush, and 300 ft towards pump changes to positive 2%. I was going to changeover to 5/16 at elevation change, tight, straight, slight downward to pump 300' to cut down on friction with zero laterals. Would it be worth the changeover?

Yes it would be worth the change over. Scrap the 3/16" and use 5/16" for everything. Create as much artificial slope a possible by tapping the end trees away from the pump as high as you can reach and tap the ones closest to the pump as low as possible. The 3/16" creates a natural vacuum when there is good slope but won't do the same on flat ground. There will be less friction loss with 5/16" and you won't have to worry about fittings clogging up which is happening with 3/16" after the first season.

If you can do so run a 3/4" mainline and then 5/16" laterals into that. If you go that route limit the number of taps per lateral to 5 but not more than 10, you'll get the best vacuum transfer and the most sap.