New Line Installs - Brand New Woods

[Mead Maple]

Hi everyone,
About to delve into the world of tubing. 3/16" is already my plan because of the great elevation I have out back and the fact that I'm only planning to do under 100 taps for the foreseeable future. I've got some questions that I'd like to poll everyone with and please don't hesitate to tell me the honest (even if less than desirable) truth about them. I'll keep it short and simple:

3/16" install
-recommended brand of lines/taps/fittings (ideally get everything at one location)
-color preference?
-average about 25 taps?
-no spurring off laterals (don't branch off) = single line with taps only
-how sharp of a bend (in degrees around a tree) is too sharp? Wasn't sure if 180* would be acceptable (if applicable) but wanted to know
-is a 500' line too long? I'll be pulling sap off of neighbors trees as well and wasn't sure when I would reach the point of resistance vs vacuum
-all 3/16" right from tap-drop-lateral? or is there a more efficient combination?
-plan get lines towards the mainline into more of a "strand" of lines rather than a giant spider web, is building a manifold to go into the mainline about the best practice?
-how late into summer/fall is ideal for getting the lines to the proper tension? This time of year I'm packing in 4 months worth of "sporting" type activity into 1 so I don't want to miss the ideal temperatures if that's going to be a major factor
-any other install tips that might make life easier during install and down the road

Mainline install
-3/4" or 1"?
-what size wire?
-best pitch of mainline?
-straight is best, but how much of an angle could it take?
-how to bring 3/16" (refer to 3/16" question) into it.
-cap the end of the line? then use Chinese finger trap cinch? (excuse my lack of proper terminology)
-color preference?


Sorry for a long post. Bear with me, I'm just hoping to keep the expenses consolidated and time investment efficient. Thanks for all your help ahead of time!

[VT_K9]

No much to contribute to the 3/16". I would read up on it a little more though. I may have a mis-understanding but I believe the risk of a 3/16" fitting (read this to be tap or tee or other) getting clogged seems to be a concern I am not willing to work with. This turned me away in the event I had an area of great slope and not hooked to my vacuum. I would encourage you to look at 5/16" and a small diaphragm pump if you have electricity or willing to do a 12v battery with solar. If there is a chance for vacuum or pump then I would only look at 5/16". Do some research and look at the data from UVM.

As far as mainline I would recommend nothing less than 1". The reason being are dips and freezing. I know we talk slope and keeping it tight, but run your wire first if you choose. Sight along the wire. If there is a chance for a 3/4" dip then you will have a solid pipe some cold morning. The 1" buys you more space, although not much but more. It is also less prone to dips.

I would use hi tension wire with a lag insulator screwed into the trees at both ends. I found spanning 75' or so and using a gripple to tension the wire works great and is quick. You can also use a wire puller and a come-a-long. If you can not get it real tight some recommend side tying with a 14 gauge wire in thinking the 14 gauge wire will give before the mainline wire will. I found gripples are quick and easy. We run a 3-5 degree slope.

For mainline tubing I would recommend the blue tubing. They make saddles to bring sap lines into it. I believe they are also available for 3/16". I like the CDL saddles with bolts to keep them secure. If you can find a friend or an associate close to you with a SpinSeal tool that would be well worth the simple effort. A better seal than a saddle and cheaper. We have switched to this.

Angles can be a slight, just remember as it enters a corner there is a chance for turbulence. This can impair vacuum transfer if you were to go that route or on heavy flow days. If the corner is too tight you risk of kinking the pipe. We have several angle changes, but they are minor and gradual.

We have used the finger traps (Wire tension grips) and fund using a rope prusik is best because it can be placed mid line. You can make them or buy them online. We use a prusik with a come-a-long to get tension. At the top end of the line we use a ball valve. We use wire to tie the mainline tubing to the mainline wire. I use my hand to elbow to set the average distance. Meaning my elbow sets on the tie I just completed and I use my hand to tie the next one where it lands. I use several additional ties at the beginning and end.

Good luck,

Mike

[DrTimPerkins]

Do some research and look at the data from UVM.

3/16" tubing is workable IF you do a really good job sanitizing it each year (most likely bleach) OR you plan on changing out all fittings every 3 years. Either approach will be effective. If you can't manage that, 5/16" with vacuum is the better approach OR a willingness to accept far lower sap yields on 3/16" tubing after the first couple of years.

[maple flats]

I'm opposite VT_K9. I now have only 3/16 in my woods and I do it against all the teachings, with great results.
I am now down to 1 bush (getting old, me not the bush) and everything has now been converted to 3/16 even though I have very little slope. I run 26-27" vacuum and many of my lines are actually lower than the releaser. I keep the lines at about 25 taps. I use 5/16 taps and drops, replace the drop every 3 years, but the tap and T are new every year. After the season I use an air water mix to clean all lines, pushing from the releaser end, just outward from the releaser out to the end. I only have 2 mains and when washing I use water from an IBC tote filled from a municipal source and air from an oiless compressor. The water is pressurized using a 120V diaphragm pump, throttled to about 2 gpm flow@ about 45 psi, the compressor runs wide open. The turbulence from the air/water mix does a good job.
I got this latest method from a guy by the name of Krueger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjQ-H7XihhA

[DrTimPerkins]

I got this latest method from a guy by the name of Krueger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjQ-H7XihhA

You might want to watch Art's updated video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlxsCiI5Ano

First 20 sec of the video he states "...we found that cleaning lines with water was not sufficient." He was finding considerable plugging of fittings and a loss of sap yield. Art was a real early adopter of 3/16" tubing, so his tubing is a tad older than most installations (and these problems develop as tubing systems age and become more contaminated with microbes). After a phone conversation and an email exchange with UVM PMRC, Art tried and now uses a calcium hypochlorite sanitizing solution with good results.

Spout replacement or CV use with 3/16" is not adequate with 3/16" tubing systems, since the problem is NOT entirely at the spout, but is also related to plugging of tees and union connectors. Therefore, in order to retain high yields with 3/16" tubing, producers must EITHER sanitize adequately (bleach or calcium hypochlorite) annually OR commit to replacing all drops (including tees) and unions about every 3 yrs and spouts each year OR accept that you will experience losses in yield.

Cornell has found the same thing....sanitation is part of the problem, plugging connectors is the other part. I believe they had an article in the Maple News about it this spring.

[Maplewalnut]

Not an expert by any means but here is my experience. I like CDl 3/16ths over Lapierre. I think the Lapierre stretches more and constricts more especially around trees. Yes, you can stretch it too TIGHT! No rhyme or reason when I put it up but usually wait until bugs and heat subsides. It will tightened up even more as temps drop. I am going the change drops every 3 years route. Everything I have seen is the bacteria plug will be at the T. Remember one plug at a lower T and the whole line is a poor performer. Remove drop, T, and hence plug is cheap insurance in my mind.I try and keep bends around tress at no more than 45 degrees although if there is a tree close at a sharper angle I never pass it up...LOL. I run all my lines into separate saddles on the mainline. Again remember, if a line has an issue that's a lot of taps off line til its fixed versus the traditional 5/16ths set up. And you don't necessarily have a prompt (vacuum gauge) to tell you when something is wrong with any one line

Good Luck
Mike

[n8hutch]

I have some 3/16 in my woods that is going on its 4th season, while it has worked ok for the most part it is prone to plugging, I am replacing Drops every other year, using 5/16 drops, and I tap with the vacuum on and pull taps with the vacuum on. I had some smaller runs with no vacuum pump on them and I gave up on them after the second season, the first season it worked great but it dropped off significantly the second season, again this was 3/16 lines w/o the added vacuum pump, its significantly harder to get the lines clean w/o a vacuum pump because once you pull the first tap you have lost your column of liquid that draws the vacuum.

Basically what I am saying is that I would not use 3/16 unless you are going to be adding a vacuum pump year 2. I personally won't be running anymore 3/16 because I feel it takes more maintenance which I dont have time for, and the chances of losing yield are more significant with each squirrel chew or plugged t effecting 25 taps instead of just a few.

[Mead Maple]

Thanks everyone for all the comments. I really appreciate it.

I think I'm willing to go through the effort of cleaning really well post season with 3/16". Should the cleaning agent of choice be left to gravity drain post cleaning and eventually dry up or is it worth to do a flush with water after that? I have seen the video by Art and I certainly like the idea of using compressed air to agitate the solution up the lines. But agree a chemical agent is worth using for the flush.

So a big question is going to be a preference it sounds like, all 3/16" from tap to mainline or using a 5/16" set up from tap to T. I have a leftover spool of 5/16" from last season and have some "similar" runs that will be close to side by side with only slightly varying differences. Maybe it would be worth to do a side by side comparison with all new equipment and see how each run reacts with vacuum and production.

I can see where having each line go into the main separately would be beneficial just in case one line fouls. I feel the same way about house drainage in the fact that leader drains (gutters), basement floor drains, and perimeter drains should never be tied together so as to never have a plugged outlet and the gutters end up flooding your basement.

I'll see if any producers in the area are willing to come out and help use a SpinSeal tool here for a price. If not, saddles it is. I'll have to look up some of the tools for mainline install. I have a good means of getting mainline to the sugar house.

My sugar house will only have a 2500watt generator to run it as of right now. That will take care of LED lighting, radio, and running the oil burner. I don't necessarily want to run a vacuum as of right now but if I do eventually install one, it will more than likely be a SurFlo with a 12v system. I'm trying to keep in mind the time I don't have available as of right now so trying to keep the system efficient but "up-gradable".

Thanks again everyone for your contribution. I'm going to start gathering supplies and hopefully can bounce questions off folks as I have them!

[BAP]

I will be going in my 4th season with 3/16 this year. I have a steep slope in the area I use it for 110 taps. I used Leader 30L tubing except for one roll of CDL when I added more. At the time I started with it, CDL was the only one making the 3/16 by 5/16 tees so I went with them. I use 5/16 drops because I had the tubing left. When I needed some repair connectors 2 years ago, I bought some Leader ones and hated them because the single barb would pull apart. I like the CDL fittings and I think the CDL tubing is holding up a little better from stretching. I wash my tubing by pumping water with some chlorine mixed in. Then I allow it to drain before plugging the drops. I have not experienced plugging. I use adapter spouts and check valve adapters. I am very pleased with the amount of sap I get. When running good, I am running 27-28” vacuum at the top. When only running marginal, having added vacuum would gain more sap.

[maple flats]

You might want to watch Art's updated video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlxsCiI5Ano

First 20 sec of the video he states "...we found that cleaning lines with water was not sufficient." He was finding considerable plugging of fittings and a loss of sap yield. Art was a real early adopter of 3/16" tubing, so his tubing is a tad older than most installations (and these problems develop as tubing systems age and become more contaminated with microbes). After a phone conversation and an email exchange with UVM PMRC, Art tried and now uses a calcium hypochlorite sanitizing solution with good results.

Spout replacement or CV use with 3/16" is not adequate with 3/16" tubing systems, since the problem is NOT entirely at the spout, but is also related to plugging of tees and union connectors. Therefore, in order to retain high yields with 3/16" tubing, producers must EITHER sanitize adequately (bleach or calcium hypochlorite) annually OR commit to replacing all drops (including tees) and unions about every 3 yrs and spouts each year OR accept that you will experience losses in yield.

Cornell has found the same thing....sanitation is part of the problem, plugging connectors is the other part. I believe they had an article in the Maple News about it this spring.
Sorry, I didn't mention the calcium hypochlorite. I tried that for the first time this past spring. As we pulled the taps we used the wash bottles with the solution, and the vacuum on. Then we flushed with the air/water as described above.
Since we have only used that method the one time, it is too early to say how it worked. I will not know that until the 2020 season.

[DrTimPerkins]

I wash my tubing by pumping water with some chlorine mixed in. Then I allow it to drain before plugging the drops. I have not experienced plugging. I use adapter spouts and check valve adapters. I am very pleased with the amount of sap I get. When running good, I am running 27-28” vacuum at the top. When only running marginal, having added vacuum would gain more sap.

With that approach you are probably getting close to maximal sap production yields for your site (reasonably comparable to pumped high vacuum), that is...as long as you're good at detecting/repairing leaks. The only downside, as you allude to, is the reduced vacuum on trees lower down the slope.

[Mead Maple]

Well then it sounds to me like 3/16" it is. Are we still thinking if using a dedicated tapping bit, that 3/16" tap and drop is the way to go? Or would it be worth using the 5/16" drop to a 3/16" T?

How about total length? What's is everyone's max 3/16" run?

[Maplewalnut]

With that approach you are probably getting close to maximal sap production yields for your site (reasonably comparable to pumped high vacuum), that is...as long as you're good at detecting/repairing leaks. The only downside, as you allude to, is the reduced vacuum on trees lower down the slope.

You also have to be as good or better detecting clogs or blockage. You still might be getting sap at the saddle but a block further up the line may be seriously compromising vacuum. Again with most of us running long laterals chances are there are alot of taps above the blockage. Add that most slope is steep and changing drops every 3 years (with no snow and ice on the ground) looks more and more appealing for cheap insurance

[mol1jb]

Well then it sounds to me like 3/16" it is. Are we still thinking if using a dedicated tapping bit, that 3/16" tap and drop is the way to go? Or would it be worth using the 5/16" drop to a 3/16" T?

How about total length? What's is everyone's max 3/16" run?

I have heard some running up to 2k ft. I have a few long runs from the main line at the bottom of the hill all the way to the back woods at the top of the hill around 1500ft. I did have 25-30 taps per run of 3/16 but with some squirrel issues I have since split the larger tap lines in half to keep my eggs in multiple baskets if you will. That way if a line get chewed and has a leak less taps are effected.

[Mead Maple]

Yeah the idea of blockage or vac leakage is definitely on my mind and I fully intend to install vac gauges on every line. I’m able to get to the top of my woods rather easily if conditions allow snowmobile or ATV access because old logging roads made it easy to install switchbacks with a mini excavator and dozer. So hopefully that will help keep me more in check with optimal line production.

I think my longest run would be 400ft-600ft and again that would be used in order to gain max vacuum using elevation drop as my friend. The woods are rather steep so I will try and do my best to capitalize on that before tying into the mainline


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[DocsMapleSyrup]

You had asked about drops. I run a small 3/16 operation for the last four years. I started with 3/16 drops but have since gone to 5/16. Somewhere on the trader, someone mentioned that with a larger diameter drop, there should be less back flow of sap into the tap hole at the end of the day. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but that was my reasoning after reading the trader.

[Mead Maple]

You had asked about drops. I run a small 3/16 operation for the last four years. I started with 3/16 drops but have since gone to 5/16. Somewhere on the trader, someone mentioned that with a larger diameter drop, there should be less back flow of sap into the tap hole at the end of the day. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but that was my reasoning after reading the trader.

Somewhere in my reading of 3/16 there was a comment of retraction and with 5/16 is what X amount and with 3/16 it was something in the area of 3-4 times that. Makes me wonder if 5/16 drops with CV spouts might help keep that pull back to a minimum. I suppose with 100 taps +/- I wouldn’t mind springing for that (assuming its worth the cost)


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[maple flats]

studies have shown that in use the biggest difference between 3/16 and 5/16 is that the gasses can pass the sap in 5/16, but not in the 3/16. That is the biggest reason I have all drops in 5/16 while at this point all or almost all laterals are in 3/16. The fact that the gasses can pass the sap in 5/16 helps you get less if any pull back into the tap hole. Another thing that will help is to use the check valve tap CV2 or adapter CV1.
I currently have slightly over half of my taps in the Zap Bac tap, the rest are CV2. After reading lots of info on the Zap Bac vs. the CV, I will be back to all CV2 either for either 2020 or 2021.

[DrTimPerkins]

After reading lots of info on the Zap Bac vs. the CV, I will be back to all CV2 either for either 2020 or 2021.

Dr. Abby van den Berg (UVM), Steve Childs (Cornell) and I (UVM) have a summary paper on 10 yrs of research on sanitation at UVM and Cornell coming out in the October Maple Digest (NAMSC). It shows average yields and average net profit for a variety of different strategies examined over that time. It focuses on 5/16" tubing however, not 3/16"...and they are different in some ways due to the plugging issue.

[Lukie]

Not to beat this thread to death but after reading all the replies I am still confused I will be installing lines for the first time also. I have my two main lines run 3/4 inch with the wire. The runs are close to 500 feet and pretty good pitch will be using mother nature for vacuum and will never have a vacuum pump! I bought ever thing for my lateral line for 3/16 and will be cleaning my line with only water and blowing out with air . And after reading all the replies I would use 5/16 for the drops and replace all the spouts every year. But after reading the replies I am confused some say that the 3/16 will plug up after the first year but I will have better vacuum on 3/16 so I guess before I run all my lines knowing that I will be cleaning only with water and NOT replacing my lines except the drops every 5 years should I just use 5/16 and be happy with the vacuum from that so I don't plug . I Know there is a lot of variables but plain and simple would you be better off in the long run staying with 5/16 for the long haul sorry to be so long winded but would like to do this right the first time. Also will only have 3 to 4 taps per lateral 30 to 40 foot runs to the lateral

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

. Also will only have 3 to 4 taps per lateral 30 to 40 foot runs to the lateral[/QUOTE]

If you only have 3 or 4 taps per lateral and only 30 to 40 foot laterals, you will not be forming the column of sap necessary for natural vacuum

[Lukie]

Ok so probably would be better off with the 5/16 so that I don't have to worry about the plugging issue I do have enough pitch that it will flow down hill but your saying the vacuum probably wont be there so again the 5/16 will be the better . I can have 6 to 10 per line if I hade to I just didn't want to many on a line incase it plugged again I know its hard to give out info not seeing the situation thanks .I will just be happy to have the sap coming to my shack the 5 gallon buckets for the last 10 years are getting old and heavier as I get older thanks

[Mead Maple]

Not to beat this thread to death but after reading all the replies I am still confused I will be installing lines for the first time also. I have my two main lines run 3/4 inch with the wire. The runs are close to 500 feet and pretty good pitch will be using mother nature for vacuum and will never have a vacuum pump! I bought ever thing for my lateral line for 3/16 and will be cleaning my line with only water and blowing out with air . And after reading all the replies I would use 5/16 for the drops and replace all the spouts every year. But after reading the replies I am confused some say that the 3/16 will plug up after the first year but I will have better vacuum on 3/16 so I guess before I run all my lines knowing that I will be cleaning only with water and NOT replacing my lines except the drops every 5 years should I just use 5/16 and be happy with the vacuum from that so I don't plug . I Know there is a lot of variables but plain and simple would you be better off in the long run staying with 5/16 for the long haul sorry to be so long winded but would like to do this right the first time. Also will only have 3 to 4 taps per lateral 30 to 40 foot runs to the lateral

No I think the thing to take away from this is the fact that keeping very good maintenance on your 3/16" is key to high yields and replacing spouts yearly along with drops every 2-3 years which I don't think is asking too much. Cleaning religiously is a major factor. For me, someone who is only going to be in the 100 tap range and doing this as a hobby for my family and some friends, I don't want to invest too much. Naturally, this "hobby" becomes an obsession and it's naive to think that I won't want more. But because I have huge drops in elevation to work with, I am going to capitalize on this. If I was worried about bulk production, I wouldn't even be thinking about 3/16". It would be 5/16" with high vac.

I think one thing to sum this up: What size tap/drops is the general consensus?

[mol1jb]

I think one thing to sum this up: What size tap/drops is the general consensus?

Like most things in life, it depends. I have my 3/16 laterals going into 3/4 main line and at the end of the main is a vac pump. My vac pump is freeze protected (inside) and has a temp switch that is goes off at 30*. All my drops are 3/16 but with the vac pump running slightly below freezing I am able to keep vac on the lines till the 3/16 freezes up and thus limited back flow into tap holes. I have had great results with this in past seasons with last season being having 8+ weeks of good flow.

Also for me I like having everything the same size so I only need one tool to install and do repairs.

If you are a hobby producer than I think it depends on what your goals are for the season. Best practice can apply to everyone but it mostly applies for those who are large producers and the savings and additional revenues add up quick. For the rest of us, its more dependent on what our season goals are and how to best reach them with our limited funds and time.

[Lukie]

True I am a hobby producer 25 gallons per year on my old 2x3 barrel stove with 100 taps into 5 gallon buckets I just moved up to a Mason 2x4 xl which will cut the wood and time boiling in half so again not having vacuum and never will so I guess I will try the 3/16 and put 10 trees per line and try to make the laterals longer I will just add them to the main line further down the line and try the 3/16 drops and clean them good every year. Now when I go into my main line I have to go from 3/16 to 5/16 because the connecter that attaches to the wire goes from 3/15 to 5/16 and the connecter which I think is called a saddle that goes into the main line is 5/16 correct or do they make 3/16 saddles ? I will try this for a couple years and if it doesn't work then I will change it out . thanks again every one .

[jason grossman]

Just a quick question here, since we cannot use iso alcohol to clean because it is not labeled for cleaning tubing. how is calcium hypochlorite being used. Mr.
krueger was using cal-shock, which is a pool cleaner at a much higher concentration than recommended by the manufacturer. certainly not labeled for tubing cleaning, and if you look on the msds from the company that manufactures the product it is listed as a pesticide! , and it leaves a residue that needs to be rinsed out. I am a bit confused both labeled the same and we can use one and not the other? if this is on you tube and in the maple news is this not bad for the industry to be promoting???

[maple flats]

True I am a hobby producer 25 gallons per year on my old 2x3 barrel stove with 100 taps into 5 gallon buckets I just moved up to a Mason 2x4 xl which will cut the wood and time boiling in half so again not having vacuum and never will so I guess I will try the 3/16 and put 10 trees per line and try to make the laterals longer I will just add them to the main line further down the line and try the 3/16 drops and clean them good every year. Now when I go into my main line I have to go from 3/16 to 5/16 because the connecter that attaches to the wire goes from 3/15 to 5/16 and the connecter which I think is called a saddle that goes into the main line is 5/16 correct or do they make 3/16 saddles ? I will try this for a couple years and if it doesn't work then I will change it out . thanks again every one .
I believe when using 3/16 you should have 15 taps as a general minimum if you want to get a good boost from gravity. It seems the guidelenes are for 15 to a max of 35 or 37 per lateral. Fewer than 15 does not often give enough of a column of sap for gravity to to it's best work.

[Mead Maple]

Yeah good call Flats. I meant to mention that. Without enough sap in the line the 3/16 will not produce enough pull to create vacuum.

I also saw the video about the chemical use. My thought was after initially cleaning with your chemical of choice would be to go through and flush with water and air combo. Thus creating a clean, sanitized line that would be ready for use next season. I think you would need to let the chemical sit for X amount of time before flushing.

Quick question, does that void the fact that it is no longer an organic product? We all talk about using permeate and vinegar for cleaning our pans, maybe there is a solution close to that maybe someone has tried before?


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[johnallin]

Just a quick question here, since we cannot use iso alcohol to clean because it is not labeled for cleaning tubing. how is calcium hypochlorite being used. Mr.
krueger was using cal-shock, which is a pool cleaner at a much higher concentration than recommended by the manufacturer. certainly not labeled for tubing cleaning, and if you look on the msds from the company that manufactures the product it is listed as a pesticide! , and it leaves a residue that needs to be rinsed out. I am a bit confused both labeled the same and we can use one and not the other? if this is on you tube and in the maple news is this not bad for the industry to be promoting???

Yes it is. . .

[DocsMapleSyrup]

So, I'm not sure whwt you are planning to do, but if I were to start from the start, I would put in 5/16 drops into 3/16 lines with 20-25 taps per line and drop those into 5/15 pr 1/2" mainline after you have had 30' of drop after the last tap on the 3/16 lines. This will give you the least amount of sap backflow into the tree, will provide you with the maximum natural vacuum and will allow you to run multiple lines into a 5/16 or 1/2 mainline.

[Mead Maple]

How many taps can a 1/2 line handle appro


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[mol1jb]

How many taps can a 1/2 line handle appro


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For a vacuum setup it is recommended around 50. Most will go with 3/4 main though as it is only slightly more expensive and can handle around 200 taps on vacuum.

[Mead Maple]

So 3/4 on natural vac (gravity pull 3/16) would easily handle 200. But I feel like if you are going through all the trouble anyways then why not just go 1 inch and never have to mess around going forward.

Is the general consensus to use 5/16 taps and drops and run 3/16 line to main?


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[steve J]

Paul you have seen mine set up and although I am using 3/4 I actually have two different main lines coming from opposite direction to a holding tank so I am not even close to maxing the capacity of 3/4. Depending how you set your woods up you may have more than one main line and could go well beyond 200 taps.

[maple flats]

How far is it and what is the slope where a mainline might start? Do the math, especially is there is slope all the way to the collection point. Might be better and cheaper to run the 3/16 all the way to the tank. To do that it must all have at least 2% slope and more is better. The cost of a mainline, the labor to install it, then the saddles and potential leaks at the saddle all come into question, but if the land levels out you can't run 3/16 farther without mechanical vacuum. A mainline also needs slope and needs real good support if that slope is fairly flat, the steeper the less issue the slope becomes.

[Mead Maple]

Flats, I have over 200 feet of drop from the top of the bush to where the sugar house will be located. There is plenty of anchor/support points for mainline so I just need to know what the best option is. Not sure if I will ever run a small pump as of right now. With my 2x8 I am thinking I i will be in the 150 or a few more range. If I ran the 3/16 all the way down it would be much easier I agree. Maybe for this year I just run all the 3/16 down to the sugarhouse and next year since it is so late I will put up the mainline


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[maple flats]

with what you describe I think the 3/16 the full distance would be better as long as the slope (200' fall) continues thru where you think a mainline might start and then all the way to the sugarhouse. Under those conditions 3/16 all the way will work better and likely cost less to install.

[Mead Maple]

Unfortunately this year because of a late season house site I am currently working on and being in addition to my 40 hour per week job I am late getting this started. This might just be better either way since if I choose to run a mainline in the years to follow all I will have to do is terminate the 3/16 where I would like the main to begin. Do we have a general consensus as to 3/16 all the way to tap or are people finding the 5/16 drop/tap to function better? With everything I read about pull back in general and that only being exacerbated with 3/16 I was wondering if a 5/16 tap and drop with CV would give me the best all around performance and least chance of blockage which seems to be the biggest complaint with the tap and T when using 3/16


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[Super Sapper]

I would use the 5/16 drop as it gives you more options and will not hinder the vacuum with the elevation drop you have. It will also lesson the pull back into the hole. Use an inexpensive spout the first year and then go to the CV the next year. I would plan on changing the drops every 2 to 3 years also.

[DocsMapleSyrup]

I just listened to Dr. Tim Perkins and Stephen Childs today at the technical sessions at the International Maple Syrup Convention. There were questions abouit 3/16" tubing and the benefits and problems after a few years. The best practice seems to be a 5/16 drop to a 3/16 line and approximately 25 taps. There was a variety of data presented and it appears that after the first year, the production starts to decrease secondary to buildup in the "T"s where the drop ties into the lateral line and where splices happen in the line. A combination of non-sodium bleach for cleaning and new spouts with drops and "T"s every 2-3 years, seems to be the way to go in order to maximize yield. They both said there was a lot of information about the 3/16 lines at UVM and Cornell.

[Mead Maple]

I just listened to Dr. Tim Perkins and Stephen Childs today at the technical sessions at the International Maple Syrup Convention. There were questions abouit 3/16" tubing and the benefits and problems after a few years. The best practice seems to be a 5/16 drop to a 3/16 line and approximately 25 taps. There was a variety of data presented and it appears that after the first year, the production starts to decrease secondary to buildup in the "T"s where the drop ties into the lateral line and where splices happen in the line. A combination of non-sodium bleach for cleaning and new spouts with drops and "T"s every 2-3 years, seems to be the way to go in order to maximize yield. They both said there was a lot of information about the 3/16 lines at UVM and Cornell.

Doc great info! I guess after hearing it many times and then you talking about their findings this will be my go to method


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[whatever]

question. if you are running a 5/16 drop into a 3/16 lateral is there a tee made specifically for this or do you just force the 3/16 over the barb designed for the 5/16 tubing?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

There are T's made for it

[Mead Maple]

I just got back from CDL and decided to go with 3/16 line with 5/16 drops. Went with signature spouts for this year being new line. Thanks to the folks at the Morrisville store for treating me well and helping with additional advice and to everyone on here. Could not even begin to delve down this road without the help of my great neighbor (who seems to have deer in his mind) and Maple Trader.


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[bmbmkr]

I would use the 5/16 drop as it gives you more options and will not hinder the vacuum with the elevation drop you have. It will also lesson the pull back into the hole. Use an inexpensive spout the first year and then go to the CV the next year. I would plan on changing the drops every 2 to 3 years also.

I used 3/16 drops on 3/16 laterals when I started 3 years ago. in 2018 I replaced them all with 5/16 drops and used cv spouts. This year I used economy spouts since I never did see sap pull more than 10-12 inches back up the drop lines at night. I DID have cv spouts plug up here & there, but that's not why I stopped using them. My decision is based solely on price. All of my drops started at 36". I'm also in southernmost Ohio and our season is shorter anyway due to latitude (38ish) and altitude (600 ish).