RO question

[Minnesota Tapper]

Planning a home built ro for next year. After reading through all the builds and comments here I'm a little confused on a couple things. I evaporate at 50 gph on a 2x6 and will tap 365 -430ish trees next year.
The best set up I have come up with is ..1.5 motor on a 330 procon,running two 4x40 xle-4040's. That's the main big pieces anyways. I've seen posters contradicting others as to what capacity this setup would do. Seems like the 330 would not handle the 2 membranes in parallel , but would be ample flow for running them in series. Which is my question..if let's say I was able to process through 100 gallons raw sap an hour with the 330 feeding a single post, what happens when the second is added in series? I know the brix will go higher in one pass, but does the overall gallons per hour processed go up any?
My concern is that I wont be able to get anywhere near the 50 gph I need to keep up to the evaporator. Which isnt a big deal right? I see some on here process hours ahead of starting the fire so they can get ahead of the cooker. Im not real sure what to expect from the 330 with 2 post in series as far as the brix and gallons of concentrate coming out of the RO per hour. Maybe I'd be best to buy a bigger pump and run the 2 membranes in parallel? Thoughts?

[Minnesota Tapper]

I should say I read that a 330 would technically work with 2 post in parallel. But not flow enough causing premature membrane fowling.

[bj's sugaring]

You would be fine with that pump and 2 membranes IN PARALLEL, should give you 80-100 gallons of concentrate per hr. Providing you are ok with removing 50% water per pass to double your sugar, this is great.

So, 2% to 4% would yeild more than enough to keep up. Try to squeeze to 8%...it will slow down and you may be close or below that 50 number per hour. Fouling would happen quicker, but how much are you processing each time? 500gallons? No problem. 1000? Thats an issue.

Ive found that with my 4 inch nf90 membranes, 50% removal per pass is the most efficient way to concentrate. For example, if I had 200 gallons of 2% sap, and passed it twice. Once gives me 100 gallons of 4% in less than an hr. Second pass would give me close to 40 gal of 10% in 45 min, so I get better concentration in less time If I were to pass the whole 200 gallons squeezed to 8%, I would be working the ro harder for 2 hours for less concentration. Just my experience, but every situation and build will be different.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

same 330 gph will go thru the menbranes, permeate should be around 1.5/2gpm depending on temp of the sap and your hi pressure. concentrate should be 3/4 gpm . i do 2 passes and sometimes 3 before i send it to the head tank

[Minnesota Tapper]

The most I would process at one time should be less than 750 gallons. And that would happen maybe once or twice a season.If I did plumb them in parallel,Then made a recirculating line after each membrane that fed back to before the procon inlet...wouldnt that help prolong use before fouling? I do agree with faster processing at lower brix. my goal isnt necessarily high brix as possible. 8-10% and I would be very happy. My trees usually put out 3-4% raw .Forgive me I'm still new to this..i know after each use they need flushing with permeate. But once they actually start to fouling and slow down, does permeate flush do any good? Or at that point is it time for soap/acid?

[bj's sugaring]

If you have 3-4 brix trees you are a very lucky man.

You will have to experiment with your RO, after benchmarking your flow rates when new. Many times a rinse with permeate ( no pressure, just rip it through) will restore your flow rates. You are just removing particulates from the surface of a filter. At some point ( 10-15hours of use) you may need to do a soap wash. There are a lot of variables. Also keep,in mind your permeate flows will drop with higher concentrations, even 8%, and that is normal. You need to soap when you are 15-20 % below your benchmark flows, wherever you choose to set those. Just be consistent and compare apples to apples, in regards to sap temp, water removal rate, pressures, ect.

[Mead Maple]

Tapper,
I am planning a ProCon 330 and 2 post set up myself this summer. From what I have read, this combination will do everything just fine. There are several threads talking about this but there is a fair amount of filtering and reading. The site search button works ok but I have found that Google might do you a bit better for specifics.
That said, just like was mentioned will be getting your benchmarks from the beginning when all is new. It helps that a lot of folks have built these so we have a really decent starting like to look at. Of course each is going to be slightly different but good to have some actual real life guidelines to go by. Good luck and please keep us posted!


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[mol1jb]

Pressure is a big variable. You remove a lot more water at 280psi vs 150psi. My single 4in deer run can process 120 gph at 280 psi and remove 50% water, more if I open the recirc line but processing speeds slow down. At higher pressure with 2 membranes you should get close to 75% water removal.

[bowhunter]

Two 4x40 XLE's in series with a 330 pump should do what you need. You only need to do about 65% water removal to get up to 8%. With this set up you can feed about 125 gph of sap at 3% and make about 45 gph of 8% concentrate. If you run the membrane in parallel it will work, but the flow through each membrane is well below the minimums recommended by the membrane manufacturer. Good luck!

[Mead Maple]

Two 4x40 XLE's in series with a 330 pump should do what you need. You only need to do about 65% water removal to get up to 8%. With this set up you can feed about 125 gph of sap at 3% and make about 45 gph of 8% concentrate. If you run the membrane in parallel it will work, but the flow through each membrane is well below the minimums recommended by the membrane manufacturer. Good luck!

Bowhunter, glad you chummed in. I read many of your postings with Diesel Pros thread. Thanks for your input!


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[Minnesota Tapper]

I'm pretty confident now on what I'm doing with the build.looking at the membrane flow charts and trying to figure out what they actually means related to cold sap is where I get real confused haha.I'm thinking series and if I can get 45 gallons of 8% an hour that would rock. I can always change it and try parallel too. The rest of the pieces like pressure limit switches etc I have already found thanks to some great threads on RO's others have built on this site. Now I just need to figure out heating wash water and I at least have a plan of what I need!

[Mead Maple]

Awesome Trapper! Look forward to it!


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[Minnesota Tapper]

Alright help needed here. Been exploring all options and considering going with a procon 660 right away with 2 membranes and having room to add in the future. I can get a new unused but out of box procon 660 pump for $170. The model number is 106N660F11XX. Procons model number id charts says the second letter "0" means non food grade. However when I find this same pump online from dealers with same "0" non food grade designation ,in their descriptions it says for use in r.o.,carbonated water,and water filtration systems. I attached a link of one example. What am I missing here? Non food grade scares me. Possibly might be some issue with the seals that make it non food grade? At that low of a price I wonder if I could just buy the pump for $170,then buy a rebuild kit with new seals for $280. I'd still have a series 6-660 stainless pump for $450. Thoughts?
Link to listing with same part number: https://www.isopurewater.com/Procon-106N660F11XX-Series-6--1-NPT-Ports-660-GPH-SS-PUMP-WO-RELI

[bowhunter]

They make this confusing and I'm not sure why the model number suggests it's non food grade, but on ProCon's NSF/ANSI 169 listing for Special Purpose Food Equipment they state that all Stainless Steel body rotary vane pumps with model number starting 106 are safe for all food grade applications. There are certain food grade applications where the brass body pumps are not recommended however they are used almost exclusively in dispensing softs drinks and coffee. I'm no expert on food grade but I personally have no concerns about using this pump in a sap RO application.

[Minnesota Tapper]

That's what I'm finding out too bowhunter. I bet quite a few builds have been made with the bon food grade pumps. I dont see the difference. With that pump how large of motor is required? I'd go 3 hp but I cat seem to find one in a 56c frame for the bolt on procon mount. Biggest I can find in 56c is 2hp.

[bowhunter]

You should be able to get by with a 2 hp. 2 hp is what ProCon recommends for that pump.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Procon does recommend a 1-2 hp motor. I found a spec sheet that says I'd be loosing a little on the very top end of pressure/flow if I dont have a 3. I have all summer to try to find a 3hp in 56c. If not I'll do a 2hp.

Looking at s.s. jet pumps most seem to have a hi/lo water pressure switch bolted to the motor. I assume that would be taken off for feeding the procon in our r.o. applications? I plan to put a low pressure cut out switch between the jet pump and procon. But that would not shut it off if pressure got to high. I went ahead and ordered the 660 procon. No turning back now!:)



20066

[Minnesota Tapper]

Maybe someone will find this info useful in the future in reference to the second prefix in procon pump model numbers. 0-non food grade, 1- food grade. I got this email and copied it here....

Hello Paul,

I spoke with the vendor and they recommend p/n: 106N660R11XX. This pump is $1,225.22.

The second letter which has an ''0'' is used for drinking water.
The model that has a ''1'' instead of an ''0'' is just certified food grade, which means that it is flushed out at the factory.
The 7th letter that has an ''R" means that it has a mechanical Seal and O'rings that have a material of Viton.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Best Regards,
Stephanie

[Nemo5]

If you’re close to Canada princess auto has a 3hp with a 56hc frame which is pretty much same as 56c.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/3-hp-totally-enclosed-fan-cooled-electric-motor/A-p8601668e
https://www.grainger.com/tps/motors_nema_motor_dimensional_chart.pdf


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[Minnesota Tapper]

Nemo5 thanks for that. I see they have a sealed and also a drip proof motor in the right size. I'm in central mn. Shipping estimator is $100. Which I'd pay for a good motor but I'm a little hesitant. Never heard of princess auto or power fist motors. There must be a reason baldor,marathon,weg,dayton motors dont make a 3hp 1 phase 56c in 1725 rpm. I'll make some calls tomorrow. Thanks!

[Nemo5]

This place has a baldor. I think they are American.
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/BALDOR-VL3609T/


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[wiam]

Nemo5 thanks for that. I see they have a sealed and also a drip proof motor in the right size. I'm in central mn. Shipping estimator is $100. Which I'd pay for a good motor but I'm a little hesitant. Never heard of princess auto or power fist motors. There must be a reason baldor,marathon,weg,dayton motors dont make a 3hp 1 phase 56c in 1725 rpm. I'll make some calls tomorrow. Thanks!

I have bought some hydraulic parts from Princess and had no problems.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Unfortunately the baldor has a 184t frame. Procon mount fits 56c. I'm going to research the power fist one.
I'd like to map out my pumps and lines on paper and get a parts list going for fittings etc. I'm going to do 2 membranes in series for now. In the future what could I add to this ro that the 660 would properly handle? If I put a tee after the procon with one side of the tee feeding the 2 membranes I will use now, can I add a line off the right side of the tee in the future? Going to another bank of 1or2 more membranes in series? Or would the pump only be able to keep up with 3 membranes in series? Just want to plumb in hard fittings now for future provisions if I can.

[neil2fish]

MT, I just finished a second season on a homebuilt very similar to what you're proposing. After talking with the fellas at MES we went with a 3 post pyramid - two in parallel with the combined concentrate feeding #3 in series. I put a Procon 360 on a 2hp 56C. I believe I was told that you cannot get a 56C above 2hp... ? I found that i don't need any more than 2. The 4040 MES membranes I'm running are rated for 120gph with 70 degree water. Cold sap knocks that down a ton so I have at least 33% more pump than I need and then some. I have my motor on a VFD and use it like a throttle. At 40hz I can pull 66% water@ 275psi, with a concentrate flow very near 50gph.(depending on ambient temps) With this setup we can add another post in series using the same equipment. I find that when my membranes are fouling I can recirc raw sap back to my feed tank at about 50psi for ten minutes or so and get a nice rinse and restore performance without having to use permeate. I played with a recirc loop this year and see a use for it when you want to go higher concentration single pass. Like others have stated, however, I think my best efficiency comes when I'm running straight through and getting 1.5-2 gpm permeate regardless of concentrate flow. The number that counts is GPH water removed...

Like you, the more I learned, the more uncertain I was. Hope this helps.

[Minnesota Tapper]

neil2fish I find your comment," the more I learn the more uncertain I am,"so accurate I laughed. Thanks for the rundown of your system. Sounds like a nice balance. I'll remember the tip of flushing with sap for 10 minutes if needed. That's a dang good idea. I agree at least in the u.s. the 56c frame does not go above 2h.p. Bet I spent 4 hours on the web and grainger catalogs etc looking for one. Pretty sure I'm better off in the long run with a strong 2 h.p. Theres only a tiny area at the max gph and max psi on procons flow chart that requiress over 2 h.p. Sounds like I'll be fine anyways without the 3hp. I found some nice quality stainless hi/low shutoff sensors at automationdirect.com. MPS25-1C-P500A and MPS-1C-D60A.
Can anyone recommend a source for the high pressure hoses? I dont care to use the clear vinyl high pressure water hoses. Dont trust them. I'd prefer stainless braided or something along those lines in the 250 or higher working pressure range. Unless theres a better option I'm not thinking of. Drinking water safe of course. Appreciate all the advice given so far. Enormously helpful!

[Mead Maple]

MT, not sure if this was covered or not, but has anyone talked about the electrical requirements of a similar unit that you're building? I think this will have a lot of impact on folks depending what they have available in their sugar house. I may end up needing to use my generator to run my RO when the time comes.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Mead Maple electric needs is definitely something to consider. I only have a temporary 110volt extension cord running to my evaporator shed when I'm boiling.i only need power for lights,blower fan and draw off. I plan to use my generator for the r.o. It has a 220 plug at 40amps. Not sure about 1 hp and smaller motors, but 1.5 hp and 2 h.p. motors can typically be wired in 110 or 220 volt. The advantage of wiring in 220 volt is the motor will draw half the amps as it would if it were wired for110 volt. For example, the amp draw of the 2hp motor I am looking at is 20 amps wired in 110 volt and if its wired in 220volt the amp draw goes down to 10-10.8 amps. Same motor,same power output, but wired in 220 volt will draw half the amps.
Something else to consider. Advice from an electrician (my brother) is to never continuously draw more than 80% of a circuit breakers capacity. So draw a max of 40 amps through a 50 amp breaker. Maybe that's overly cautious but I've always followed that way of thinking.

[wiam]

Mead Maple electric needs is definitely something to consider. I only have a temporary 110volt extension cord running to my evaporator shed when I'm boiling.i only need power for lights,blower fan and draw off. I plan to use my generator for the r.o. It has a 220 plug at 40amps. Not sure about 1 hp and smaller motors, but 1.5 hp and 2 h.p. motors can typically be wired in 110 or 220 volt. The advantage of wiring in 220 volt is the motor will draw half the amps as it would if it were wired for110 volt. For example, the amp draw of the 2hp motor I am looking at is 20 amps wired in 110 volt and if its wired in 220volt the amp draw goes down to 10-10.8 amps. Same motor,same power output, but wired in 220 volt will draw half the amps.
Something else to consider. Advice from an electrician (my brother) is to never continuously draw more than 80% of a circuit breakers capacity. So draw a max of 40 amps through a 50 amp breaker. Maybe that's overly cautious but I've always followed that way of thinking.

But you are using the same amount of power. The watts are the same wether it is 110 or 220.

[Minnesota Tapper]

Wiam is correct. Sorry about that. I had a moment of stupidity :/

[Mead Maple]

Yeah just something to keep in mind I'd say. If you have a large sugar house with it's own breaker panel probably not a big deal if you've got ample power to it. As of right now I would just keep the Genny near by to run everything since I'm a few years away from building my permanent sugar house.