2x6 Boiling Depth & Batch Sizes

[tysonroggie]

I'm looking for some advice / correction for my boiling practice. Any input is appreciated. I did try to search the forum but didn't come up with an answer.
I'm boiling on a sunrise spitfire 2x6 which has drop flues in the back pan with 1 divider, and a 2x2 front pan also with one divider. I have an external float box and a small blower under the grates. I typically run the depth at about 1" to 1.25". Syrup taste and color is very good.
I have 2 main issues
#1 My boiling time between batches is too long (2-3 hours) and then I end up with larger batches of around 2 gallons of syrup. It also takes Longer for the first batch of the day although my research on the forums showed that I should be plugging off my back pan from the front pan. Is this correct?
#2 It is a pain making the syrup because, during draw off I have to manually move sap to the syrup pan because the back pan boils so hard in the front that it "pushes" the sap to the rear of the back pan, thus (seemingly) not allowing the sap to fill in behind the syrup in the front pan. Throughout the entire day I can see the top of the flues and there is almost no sap covering them. Also, during draw off my front pan level gets low enough that it goes below the thermometer (if I'm not careful). I tried going to the next notch on the float but that seemed to flood the pan too much. Maybe I'm just being too fussy but it seems like it should be easier. You almost have to have two people when it's time to draw off.
Thanks in advance.

[Super Sapper]

You should not be boiling in batches. For one it sounds like guy out need to run deeper. How far open is your draw off valve? You should only have a trickle coming out. If it is too fast you will get the surging you describe.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

We run 1.5" in our pans on our 2x6. We have an auto drawoff which opens slowly but we still have a ball valve in front of it that we only leave partially open to help with any surging as super sapper suggested.
19867

[tysonroggie]

You should not be boiling in batches. For one it sounds like guy out need to run deeper. How far open is your draw off valve? You should only have a trickle coming out. If it is too fast you will get the surging you describe.

That makes sense.
It is a very large valve compared to the size of the evaporator so I will definitely try not opening it as far. I don't open it all the way of course as that empties the whole thing out very quickly.
Maybe instead of the word batches I should have said "2-3 hours in between draw offs".
Thanks

[tysonroggie]

The surging that you both are talking about, are you referring to the back pan? I'm a bit confused on how opening the ball valve less would make a difference in the back pan. Also do you have to ever manipulate the sap flow during draw off (like scooping it from the back pan to the front pan because it won't fill in behind)?

[wmick]

That makes sense.
It is a very large valve compared to the size of the evaporator so I will definitely try not opening it as far. I don't open it all the way of course as that empties the whole thing out very quickly.
Maybe instead of the word batches I should have said "2-3 hours in between draw offs".
Thanks

"2-3 hours in between draw offs" does infer "batches". When Super describes a "trickle"... I'm pretty sure it is a continuous trickle he speaks of... never turning it off..(or very little time between very small draws).... I, myself, have not been able to achieve this, ... ... and watch your thread intently for ideas and tidbits to solve my surging and batching issues as well....

I'm very far from expert, but I think I get it... and if I understand correctly, the ideal condition would be a "constant" trickle of raw sap going in (EG 20 gph), a gradual increase in brix, as it "constantly" works its way through the serpentine of pan dividers..... and finally a "constant" trickle of syrup dribbling out of the other end. (EG 0.5 gph) I've been close to this... but then I open the fire door and mess it all up...

I think my biggest problem has been feeding my fire in "batches"... causing big temperature swings, and creating batches in the pans. Going to try a more frequent and consistent burn this weekend, and see what happens.

[tysonroggie]

"2-3 hours in between draw offs" does infer "batches". When Super describes a "trickle"... I'm pretty sure it is a continuous trickle he speaks of... never turning it off..(or very little time between very small draws).... I, myself, have not been able to achieve this, ... ... and watch your thread intently for ideas and tidbits to solve my surging and batching issues as well....

I'm very far from expert, but I think I get it... and if I understand correctly, the ideal condition would be a "constant" trickle of raw sap going in (EG 20 gph), a gradual increase in brix, as it "constantly" works its way through the serpentine of pan dividers..... and finally a "constant" trickle of syrup dribbling out of the other end. (EG 0.5 gph) I've been close to this... but then I open the fire door and mess it all up...

I think my biggest problem has been feeding my fire in "batches"... causing big temperature swings, and creating batches in the pans. Going to try a more frequent and consistent burn this weekend, and see what happens.

Aahhhh, Yes. That makes sense. I've got a long way to go before I get to that point for sure. Hmmm, something to work towards I guess.
Thanks for the reply.

[mol1jb]

The issue in your back pan sounds like you may have too much foam. I too have had this issue on a raging flue pan and I find that if it is blocking my float box intake that my foam is too heavy and I need to use more defoamer. Once I have the foam under control the back pan still boils violently but the float box intake is not obstructed. I run my flue pan around 3/4 in deep.

[mudr]

Tyson,

I run mine around an inch deep. Shallower boils faster, but i get similar issues with not having sap flow through the pans to the front durimg draw off. Also, usong a defoamer really helps a lot of things.

Tell your better half hi for me, she was my wifes college roomate.

[tysonroggie]

The issue in your back pan sounds like you may have too much foam. I too have had this issue on a raging flue pan and I find that if it is blocking my float box intake that my foam is too heavy and I need to use more defoamer. Once I have the foam under control the back pan still boils violently but the float box intake is not obstructed. I run my flue pan around 3/4 in deep.

I will try using a little more defoamer (as long as my Grandpa isn't around haha). He always gives me a funny look when I use it seemingly unnecessarily. His claim was that it always made it harder for the syrup to filter. I also talked to someone else and they said they put some kind of a piece of stainless steel to "block" the sap from pushing back to the rear of the back pan. I think if I could cure the boil pushing the sap back everything would work a lot differently (better)

[VTnewguy]

On our 2*6 we use two drops of defoamer every time we fire. 7 minutes.

[tysonroggie]

So does your sap not flow through to the front because of foam or because of a hard boil. When mine is boiling hard and pushing the sap back I don't have foaming issues. It's more the actual rolling boil. Maybe I can grab a picture of it next time I boil.

Haha, Cool! She says hello! Lots of good memories! If you ever need an excuse to come over to the Northern part of the state let us know!

[wmick]

On our 2*6 we use two drops of defoamer every time we fire. 7 minutes.
curious . Whereabouts, in the pan do you add it? At the foam, or at the inlet, etc??
Thanks

[tysonroggie]

VTnewguy,
So does that help slow the boil down or just keep the foam down. I don't really have a "foaming" issue as much as a "too hard of a boil" issue. (if there is such a thing).

[Sugarmaker]

I am not standing there you are. But I will give this a go. First off lets look at your rig. You have a back pan with one partition and it boils like crazy. That is normal and a good thing. I really don't think that it is pushing the sap to the back, you just don't get the rolling boil back there and that's no different on any evaporator. Now to the front pan. You have one partition. (pictures of your pan would help) With only one partition it may not and is not allowing a gradient to be occur and you will basically have the front pan full of syrup. Most fronts have 3 or 4 channels to allow the syrup to be pushed by the less dense sap towards the draw off. So my read is that with the current pan your are going to have the 2-3 gallons of syrup at one time and the long duration between draws. Just the nature of the system you have. Its not set up for continuous flow. Which is difficult to achieve even on a larger rig. Now to the reason about moving sap to the front. You are doing the right thing to not let the front pan go dry when you draw off. You might try increasing the sap input rate several minutes before the draw off and or reducing the fire at the time of draw off. All in all I think your doing ok, syrup is good quality. Keep boiling. You might try running a little deeper too. You may not ever get to a drizzel of syrup. Its just not set up for that. May I ask what is the brix of the sap your boiling? That may have a some influence. Have you checked the sap in various places in the rig just prior to draw off?

FIW I learned to boil on a antique 3 x 10 Warren evaporator with raw sap, (Google it?) Anyway 4 gallon "batches" on a series of flat pans made batches of syrup every 2-3 hours. Syrup pan (2 x 3) was lifted (hinged) to drain through a bung that had to be removed. The pan was set back down dry, you had to flood the pan with sap before it scorched. and it sizzled like a hot skillet. Was a oil fired rig so the heat was off during the draw. Made dark delicious "old fashioned" syrup just like Glenn Goodrich is trying to make today! We just didn't know we were so far advanced back then!:)
Regards,
Chris

[Big Daddy's Sugar Shack]

I am not standing there you are. But I will give this a go. First off lets look at your rig. You have a back pan with one partition and it boils like crazy. That is normal and a good thing. I really don't think that it is pushing the sap to the back, you just don't get the rolling boil back there and that's no different on any evaporator. Now to the front pan. You have one partition. (pictures of your pan would help) With only one partition it may not and is not allowing a gradient to be occur and you will basically have the front pan full of syrup. Most fronts have 3 or 4 channels to allow the syrup to be pushed by the less dense sap towards the draw off. So my read is that with the current pan your are going to have the 2-3 gallons of syrup at one time and the long duration between draws. Just the nature of the system you have. Its not set up for continuous flow. Which is difficult to achieve even on a larger rig. Now to the reason about moving sap to the front. You are doing the right thing to not let the front pan go dry when you draw off. You might try increasing the sap input rate several minutes before the draw off and or reducing the fire at the time of draw off. All in all I think your doing ok, syrup is good quality. Keep boiling. You might try running a little deeper too. You may not ever get to a drizzel of syrup. Its just not set up for that. May I ask what is the brix of the sap your boiling? That may have a some influence. Have you checked the sap in various places in the rig just prior to draw off?
Regards,
Chris

Excellent, I have the same basic set up as the other gentleman here and I thought I was doing something wrong. Great explanation of the front pan with only one partition, makes sense.

[tysonroggie]

Could it be this simple?? I have boiled the last two times at a deeper level (1 notch lower on the float). This runs about 1.75” in the pans instead of the 1” to 1.25”. This pretty much fixed all of my problems. I know it’s a bit deeper than a lot of the rest of you boil but the entire system is working excellent. I can draw off a nice steady draw for 5-10 minutes and then only have about 45 min to 1 hr in between the next one. I’m still going to play around a little bit but I wanted to thank everyone for their input. It’s much appreciated. It’s actually an enjoyable process again. I think if I had a way to fine tune my float I could run a little shallower but for now it’s working good enough. Thanks again to all who replied.

[VTnewguy]

curious . Whereabouts, in the pan do you add it? At the foam, or at the inlet, etc??
Thanks
We add two drops in the flue pan float box. It helps keeping the foam under control and everything going the right direction.

[1arch]

Could it be this simple?? I have boiled the last two times at a deeper level (1 notch lower on the float). This runs about 1.75” in the pans instead of the 1” to 1.25”. This pretty much fixed all of my problems. I know it’s a bit deeper than a lot of the rest of you boil but the entire system is working excellent. I can draw off a nice steady draw for 5-10 minutes and then only have about 45 min to 1 hr in between the next one. I’m still going to play around a little bit but I wanted to thank everyone for their input. It’s much appreciated. It’s actually an enjoyable process again. I think if I had a way to fine tune my float I could run a little shallower but for now it’s working good enough. Thanks again to all who replied.
I run at 2+ inches. Reduces risk of scorching if sap levels were to drop due to heavy foam or faster than desired draw offs.

[Austin351]

Could it be this simple?? I have boiled the last two times at a deeper level (1 notch lower on the float). This runs about 1.75” in the pans instead of the 1” to 1.25”. This pretty much fixed all of my problems. I know it’s a bit deeper than a lot of the rest of you boil but the entire system is working excellent. I can draw off a nice steady draw for 5-10 minutes and then only have about 45 min to 1 hr in between the next one. I’m still going to play around a little bit but I wanted to thank everyone for their input. It’s much appreciated. It’s actually an enjoyable process again. I think if I had a way to fine tune my float I could run a little shallower but for now it’s working good enough. Thanks again to all who replied.

I am on a new Smokey Lake 2x6 this year with forced air, drop flue back pan and a 3 chamber syrup pan. I had the same issues as you.... When running 1.5" depth or less, my draw offs were big (2-3 gallons) and then sat for a couple hours before the next one. At the shallow levels, I believe it was making syrup through most of the syrup pan, instead of the chamber at the draw valve When I went up to 2" of depth, the draw offs ended up around a half gallon every 30 minutes.