1/4 inch preheater

[Milton]

Anyone try using 1/4 inch copper on a barrel stove preheater?

I'm only boiling about 3 gph, cold sap is killing boil. Was thinking 1/4 would heat hotter and should be adequate to trickle in

[Chickenman]

When I had a barrel stove I wrapped 3/8 soft copper around the stove pipe loosely with good results. Just remember to flush it with water when out of sap to keep it from scorching in the tubing.

[wobbletop]

Anyone try using 1/4 inch copper on a barrel stove preheater?

I'm only boiling about 3 gph, cold sap is killing boil. Was thinking 1/4 would heat hotter and should be adequate to trickle in

Depends where the tubing is. I once tried wrapping it around the stove pipe, but there was not enough volume in the 1/4" tube and the sap (violently) vapourized in the tube. I was thinking about starting the flow before I started the fire and have it going continuously to avoid vaporizing the sap. However, the simple pump I had was WAY too loud especially with the vibrations carried into the copper tube around the stack.

The 3/8 tubing is probably a better starting point.

[Milton]

Thanks I will give 3/8 a try

[SyncroScott]

When I had a barrel stove I wrapped 3/8 soft copper around the stove pipe loosely with good results. Just remember to flush it with water when out of sap to keep it from scorching in the tubing.

Been pondering this myself. How many times did you go around the stove pipe? How much do you suspect it raised the temp of the incoming sap?

[bowhunter]

I have a small evaporator and have been using a 3/8 copper coil around my 6 inch stove pipe for several years with good results. I believe I have 7 wraps around the pipe. I have it wrapped pretty tightly and it is wrapped with aluminum foil to hold in more of the heat. I get about 40-60 F of temperature increase on cold concentrate. I pump 5- 7 gallons per hour through it. At the end of the run I flush it out with permeate.

[Milton]

I get a tremendous amount of heat at base of stack. It glows red when it's ripping. Any advice on connectors?

[Johnny Yooper]

I used 1/2 inch copper wrapped around the chimney, 40°F sap in, 160°F sap out; there's a picture in my Feb. 2019 thread titled "Sap Preheater Pic for Eberzin"

[Mark B]

Anyone try using 1/4 inch copper on a barrel stove preheater?

I'm only boiling about 3 gph, cold sap is killing boil. Was thinking 1/4 would heat hotter and should be adequate to trickle in

My first season I ran 1/4 inch. You can see it in my avatar pic. If you didn't keep the volume of flow up it would flash/ scorch in the tubing. Last season switched to 3/8, but too few wraps. This year, I placed more wraps and tighter to the stack. To help with excessive heat and potential flash, I wrapped the main stack with ceramic insulation gasket and then a second layer of chimney pipe. all with the thought of preventing direct contact with the main stove pipe. I then place a third piece of pipe over the entire coil, In hopes to retain heat and even it out over the length of the wrap. I haven't had a chance to boil yet, so I will report back by this weekend on the results, as I am expecting to have enough sap for a good boil by Friday.

[maple flats]

Look up the pictures in member Johnny Curevo's pics of how he did it. If you search his posts, he explains how he made it. I think (but please check) he used 3/8 copper and he uses springs to hold however many loops are needed to get the sap up to temperature. He can also, unhook all loops and then not burn the sap if any is left in the tubing. Each loop can be held to the stack or left loose as needed.

[wobbletop]

I retried with my last boil (I'm a small backyard guy with 20 taps on a barrel evaporator).

I was mainly worried about the sap flash scorching in the tube. I used 10' of 3/8" copper tubing wrapped about 6 times around the stove pipe. It was wrapped as tightly as I could but it was not 100% in contact since the stove pipe isn't completely round. I also made sure to have a constant downward wrap as I was worried about having a place where something could just sit in the tube and boil. This would make sure the tube would drain by itself.

I used the aquatec 8800 from my RO system to provide the flow. I used 1/4" line to connect the pump to the copper with about 18" of wrapping coming off the stove pipe to try to prevent the heat from the stove pipe from melting the plastic 1/4" tubing.

Initially I had the wrapping high on the stove pipe as that's less hot, but I pulled it lower as I got more comfortable using it.

I had the sap recirculating to my 32G sap storage, but it was obvious that that would not raise the temperature very much or quickly.
I switched to recirculating in a 5G bucket with about 1G of sap in the bucket. This allowed be to increase the sap temp.
The sap was about 50F in the storage, and it would raise to about 85F by the time I needed to add more to the evaporator (about 5-10 minutes).

I don't have a way to trickle into the evaporator yet, so I would add 1G sap to the 5G bucket, wait for it to come up to 85F, then add that to the evaporator, and repeat. I made sure to never have the pump draw air so the flow would stall and potentially flash the sap in the heater tubing.

I could probably double the tubing wrapped or insulate it better to the stove pipe to increase the performance. I could try to add a couple taps from the line to feed both my evaporator trays, but that would be a lot more tubing and connections.

Once I was out of sap, I just filed the 5G bucket with permeate and let it circulate until the stove pipe was cool enough.

19891

[wobbletop]

One more update....

I was using the RO pump to circulate the sap around the preheater, but I didn't complete my RO the night before my boil, so I was running the RO instead of the preheater during my boil. The next time I tried to use the preheater, there were a lot of copper flakes coming off the inside of the coil into the fluid, so I did not use the stove pipe preheater.

So a warning if you use this method: You either need to always use this method and keep fluid going through the coil, or remove the coil from the stove pipe if you're not going to use it.

I'm not sure if I can recover the coil my running a lot of water through it.

[Aaron Roy]

This is what I did. https://youtu.be/jV5CUXEv6HA. I have added to that since but that is the first video that I made with the tubing. There is another video with tubing and and somemore from this year with my new setup

[Mark B]

I never got back with my follow up. My 3/8 copper wrap worked great. 25' of 3/8 copper sandndwiched between two pieces of stove pipe and placed over the actual chimney pipe. Between placement of the warming tank and the coil my preheat system held the sap at 110f at a minimum. This was from cold concentrate to the warming tank.20103

[wobbletop]

Thanks for the update.

Are you using forced air or natural draft? Did you happen to measure what your stack temp was near the tubing?

Maybe your insulation idea is what is making it work for you.

[Johnny Yooper]

Previous to this season I was using ten wraps of 1/2 inch copper around the chimney pipe, that took 40F incoming sap to 160F. This year just for grins I doubled the wraps to see what would happen and I hit 178F. I have the tubing wrapped fairly tight so virtually no gaps to the chimney pipe but I think if I cover the tubing with some kind of insulation I could get it somewhat higher, I don't necessarily want to go much higher though. I also did some boiling without running any liquid through the preheater, my soldered coupling joining the two lengths of copper wraps remained intact, then ran sap through the preheater during later boils and didn't notice any issues. I like to experiment and try new things each season, to see what works and what doesn't. Also built a 3'x8' aluminum hood exhausted through ceiling (first year boiling inside the log sugar shack and was concerned with steam buildup), a few tweaks for next year but overall it worked pretty good.

[Mark B]

Thanks for the update.

Are you using forced air or natural draft? Did you happen to measure what your stack temp was near the tubing?

Maybe your insulation idea is what is making it work for you.

I found that without the piece of stove pipe between the actual functioning stove pipe and the copper, it tended to boil the sap in the pipe, scorching sometimes. The extra pipe buffers the heat transfer a bit. Then by wrapping the whole thing with a third pipe it traps the more even heating and helps to push it into the copper without boiling or scorching.

My setup has a draft vent in the door, as well as an air under fire vent I added 2 years ago. I'm still tweaking the auf, but as it all sits, my little homebuilt 2x4 boils at about 14gph. I didn't measure stack temp this year, but I know I need to add 1-2' to my stack this next year to increase my draft.