Is anyone in maple land heating their home with a wood gasification boiler?

[tapper]

I am at the end of a 20 year cycle with my current heating system and have to make a change. Is anyone burning a gasification wood boiler? I am considering one of these but wonder if the wood savings is substantial enough to justify the almost triple price tag over conventional? I am aware of the clean burn aspect of these boilers and that is also a large reason for considering one of these. I would like any thoughts good or bad from anyone that has experience with one of these. Thanks.

[hookhill]

Never heard of them until now. Did a bit of web search on them and they sound very similar to adding a blower on a arch. Glen Goodrich in Cabot talks about fine tuning up a wood burning arch by introducing forced air into the back of the firebox which burns secondary gases. Let us know if you get one.

[TapME]

Saw one at the local fair and was impressed with the fact that there was no smoke that came from the unit. They had the demo set up so that they heated a restaurant with the heat with a big radiator and blower combo. the salesman also stated that it is the darnedest thing to see snow on top of the boiler while it is making heat for your home. Price did seem to be a factor.

[WF MASON]

Would this be an outside wood boiler that alot of people are using now or something 'new'??
I know alot of people who have outside wood boilers, they all cut their own wood, twelve cord , if your home is 24x24 or your heating the barn 36x60, its twelve cord, if you had to buy your wood, oil would be cheaper heat. Or an inside wood stove is more efficient.

[tapper]

One manufacturer that I talked to has been making these boilers for 26 years. They are not an outside wood boiler but some of the newer ones on the market are made as outside boilers. The Firebox is a mass of refractory or ceramic. Some have a forced draft that pulls the smoke into a seperate chamber in the stove. Combustion temps in the seperate chamber are from 1200 to 2000 degrees to ignite the smoke and creosote making these stoves smoke and creosote free. They sound like a good idea and sound like they are efficient but would like to hear from someone that has used one.

[Fred Henderson]

I have what is called an outside boiler. It only heats the water to 180drg and is not pressurerized.It does make a lot of cresote. But for 18 face cords of wood it heats my 3000 sq ft house, all our hot water plus heats my 1500sq ft garage. My building are all new in that last 15 years and I build them and didn't cut any corners They are all super insulated.

[gearpump]

I have a neighbor that has a HS Tarm. I think that it is a dual unit with an oil burner. He has had great luck with it. I have the Central outside boiler and plan on going thru 20 cords of wood per season. I love the idea of being able to turn up the heat on those cold winter days and not feel guility!

Marty

[maplecrest]

my father in law has one of these units. it heats a 800 gallon water tank next to it in his basement. he burns it hot and fast till the tank is up to temp then lets fire go out when tank gets down to 135 or so fires again. on colder days fire keeps going. i just took a boiler out of my basement bought a central boiler for outside. averaged a chimney fire a year. too much ceasote could not run hot enough no water storage. if you go with this unit think about hot water storage you will need it for a more efficient system

[tapper]

I bought an HS Tarm last week and in the process of plumbing it in. I really want to do the water storage with it but that doubles the price of the thing and right now I am more interested in killing the propane bill. I averaged $500 a year burning sawdust for the last 20 years so the $3,000 + for propane a year really hurts! Over the winter I may build my own water storage for a fraction of the cost. It really does sound like the way to go with one of these units.

[royalmaple]

I just put my name on a central classic outside wood boiler, it is the 60x48 model. Gonna work on getting it set up this weekend. Can't wait to have free heat.

Take that Sadam....

[TapME]

Let me know what you think of all the new regs. that the state has put in. They are always trying to make it harder for the average person to save a buck. It's a mean way of killing American inventions.

[royalmaple]

From what I am told they don't take effect until April 2008. One dealer was trying to tell me they are in effect the end of this week. Either way if you bought one up till then you are all set.

Crazy new proposed rules, stack has to be higher than your tallest building on your property, 250 - 500 foot set backs from neighbors property line. And emissions test that no one on the market can currently pass. Central told me they are going to have a boiler ready for sale soon that will meet the demands, but interesting how it is 3,000 more for the same model.

Come to Maine the overtaxed state, and over mismanaged state. We should change the sign when you cross the border.

[TapME]

I was told that the regs went into effect the middle of October, and that was from the state rep that voted against it. The stack has to be 24" higher than the closes building within 300'. Aque-thurm has one out that meets all the new test, because it re-burns all the smoke so there is none.

[maplecrest]

here in vt. we have same laws. i live in the historical district of the town. i had to get a town permit because of where i live. my chimmney is 12 feet high. does not reach my drip edge of my roof. so what the syate says and what the zoning of the town says are different. they did not want to see gleaming s.steel over my roof top. they said short. the one getting smoked out it me on cert. days

[TapME]

That's quite a setup that you have, and a maze of piping. On an average day how much sap runs in? Must keep you busy when she running.

[maplecrest]

that one has 7 main lines running into that booster, with two dry and one wet line. has 1800 taps with three step ups. powered by a 3hp liquid ring pump. i have forgotten what my best day was some where around 5800 gallons. ave around 4000 a day.

[jason waterhouse]

Andy Naylor in johnson Vt sells blue forge gasification outdoor wood furnaces,I took a look at his this past weekend i was very impressed with it I also got a video from the guy that builds them i really like them and might end up buying one. andy is also a sugar maker i saw his add in the maple news

[tapper]

I bought an HS Tarm. For anyone that burns wood, gasification boilers are worth the extra money. I have been burning mine for 2 weeks now and a large percent of the heat comes from burning the wood gasses that otherwise go up the chimney. Every aspect of this boiler is well worth the investment.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

For those of you who have either the conventional boiler or the gasification style, how many (full, not face) cords of wood do you burn in relation to your house square footage? Thanks.

[Fred Henderson]

I use 61/2 full cords to heat 4500 sq ft plus my hot water. My woodworking shop is kept at 67.


PS; I have a Classic by Central Boiler

[tapper]

My house and attached garage are 4300 sq ft including the basement area that I am heating. This is the 1st season with a wood boiler so based on wood consumption for the past 2 weeks I estimate 8 full cords for a 6 month heating season.

[ibby458]

I'm heating a 2400 sq ft OLD farmhouse with a Woodmaster outside boiler. Unfortunately, it doesn't have grates, so I can't burn hardwood. (The unit fills with dead coals and you freeze to death!) Dead/dry pine, tamarack and spruce burn good in it, but simply doesn;t have the BTU content of hardwood.

Consequently, we average 33 FULL cords of dead tamarack (etc) each year. We recently installed some new doors and insulation, and moved the furnace. (And SUPER insulated the pipes and put them 7' deep.) We're hoping that 25 cord will get us through sugaring season.

As a general rule, I HATE regulations on what you can do on your own property, but (due to some ignorant people), these really do need to be controlled. They do not belong in any built-up areas, or even if you have a neighbor within 500 feet or more. Mine stinks to high heaven, especially when the creosote catches fire. (Not a problem - it just heats the water faster, but it sure do stink!) I did retrofit a larger forced draft blower, which helps the fire burn hotter and keep the stench down.

A lot of the problem is due to the softwood we burn. A friend has a Heatmore with a very good grate/forced draft setup. He burns only dry hardwood, and has very little smoke. You can hardly tell it's burning; even right beside it.

[tapper]

Wow thats a lot of wood. Years ago my father and I designed a built an outside wood boiler to heat 3 mobile homes. That thing burned 50 full cord. It was a second full time job cutting wood for it let alone keeping the boiler full. Granted it kept 3 homes warm but that is a lot of wood!

[gearpump]

This question really got me thinking, after a little research I got this.

2 -720 sq. ft. apartments
1700 sq.ft. 1700's farmhouse, parts with no insulation.
400 sq.ft. sugarhouse kitchen
soon to be online a 1000 sq.ft. garage/workshop
3 water heaters

All totaled around 4500 sq.ft.
So I guess we can say we are heating a small city!
I am estimating around 16 cords of wood, one dining room set, a couple of book cases, 50 or so pallets and a lot of building waste.
I also believe it is safe to say that afer this year our Central boiler has paid for itself.

Marty

[royalmaple]

Ibby-

Not sure what you mean by not being able to burn hardwood in your boiler because you don't have grates?

The classic I have does not have grates, and burns hardwood fine. That is the recommended fuel from the manufacturer. I've been burning dry hardwood( as big as will fit in the door, nut busters), green pine, pallets, 2x4's scrap pine boards, pretty much the whole shooting match. No problems burning anything. Maybe it is the model?

[ibby458]

When we first got it, I had a good supply of grey birch and soft maple pole wood (from thinnings). It burned good as long as there were air spaces between the billets, but as soon as they went to coals, the air couldn't get thru them and they died. Within 2 days, we couldn't get the boiler up to 180 degrees. :(

By filling the bottom 3/4 with dead tamarack, we could top it off with hardwood and it would still maintain temperature for 8-10 hours.

I asked the dealer about it, and he just shrugged and said that's the way it was. He could burn up to 1/3 dry popple in his, but that's about it. The company soon changed air injection design, but he said it really doesn't work much better.

I think it's because of the way the air enters the firebox - it's about 1/3 the way up the fire - not at the bottom. In any event - it's what we have and have to deal with it.

There is an upside - nobody else has any use for dead tamarack, and I've never had to pay a cent for all I want of it. Quite a few landowners even help us cut and haul it to clean up their wood lots. I built a big tandem axle trailer that can go right into the woods that'll haul 1-1/2 full cords. Since we're cutting 36" lengths and rarely have to split any, it fills up fast. 2 weeks ago, we had a lot of help and brought 8 full cords home in one day. Split (as needed) and stacked it, too.

[Zamboni Driver]

I have a wood doctor outside wood boiler and use about 8 full cord every year . Heating a 2,000 sq old farm house.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I've been heating 2000 sf single floor, well insulted house with a Kerr Scotsman forced hot air wood furnance. It was installed in 1978. Consistently burns 750 cubic feet of hardwood a year. It has a 3 pass chamber and emits little smoke. I suspect it is probably more than 65% efficient since the flue pipe is only hot to the touch.

[Brent]

that's a lot of wood.

We have a 4200 sq ft log home, modern 8" squared logs. The kitchen dining area has a very high 2 story cathedral ceiling ( heat rises ) When we bought this place that propane dealer told us the previous owner was spending about $7500 a year. I went hunting for a big wood stove the next day. We put a big Blaze King unit in the room with the cathedral ceiling. The house has a full forced air system with a high efficiency propane furnace. We run the blower on high 24/7 to move the heat around. Also have 2 ceiling fans in the big room.
It works pretty well.

We mostly burn maple, cut this winter, burn next. We go through about 3 to 3 1/2 bush cords a year. When the outdoor temps get above about 35 deg F we have to kill the fire and use the propane. The last 2 years our total propane bill was about $1500 - 1700. That includes cooking and hot water and uh .... quite a chunk for finishing syrup in the kitchen.

The Blaze King will easily go through a night or a day while at work. On low heat it can be stretched out to over 24 hours with a small bed of coals and a good load of wood.

For what it's worth here is the link.
http://www.blazeking.com/king1107.html and I put a picture of it being installed in our living room at the bottom of our own web site. Link below.

[saphead]

The Blue Forge boiler is a new one, I'd like to see some more info on it...downdraft or updraft?More manufacturers are getting on the bandwagon,Tarm's a downdraft and it's been around for awhile.
Garn is a gasification boiler, I think it's set up like an HRT commercial boiler.
There is also The Wood Gun,but THE best wood Gasification Boiler is The
Seton boiler designed by Fred Seton over 20 yrs. ago,he's made thousands over the years.
I did a load of research last year and one of my co-workers bought one,awesome and simple.It's an updraft waterwall boiler sort of like a power plant boiler.The fire chamber is made out of castable ceramic and maintains
a temp pushing 3000 degrees during the firing cycle..During the off cycle
the ceramic stays @ 2000 plus degrees and the fire goes completely out as the damper is completely closed.When the thermastat calls the damper
is opened and the wood reignites,it's basically been coked. The energy
is stored in the wood not in a big water tank that looses heat.
When you have a question and call, Fred will you take the time to help you out! He worked out a deal w/Greenwood boilers but they hosed him bad,they copied his boiler but he gets no royalties, don't buy from them.
The problem with a downdraft boiler is that the wood needs to be below 20% moisture content for things to work right,with a Seton the moisture gets driven off during the coking process,a little efficiency is lost but the boiler gets a steady 80-85% efficiency once it stabilizes! Outdoor wood hot water heaters average about 50% and create tons of unburned gases and particulates...major polluters @ idle(smoldering) cycle.Sorry about being long winded but I hate to see people spending huge $ for an outdoor "boiler" thats not going to last, creates a whole bunch of pollution and does not run efficientley.

[royalmaple]

I'm guessing you don't have a wood boiler?

I bought an outdoor boiler this year, and I don't have the pollution issue you mention. I might not be able to say that 100% since I don't have a meter to test so I'll say this. At idle the most I have coming out of the stack is white steam mostly, not even smoke. And that's only cause I am not burning well seasoned wood. Most everything I am burning now was in a pile and is full of snow or moisture. It doesn't phase the boiler at all, other than has to work a bit harder to dry the wood. I only wish I did it sooner, so I can tell the oil companies and chavez etc to keep their oil.

I don't feel the smoke issue is apples and apples to compare to a wood stove since normally you have to burn just good dry hardwood in them. So you don't burn the house down. You can't burn green softwood in them, wouldn't make any sense. So when you compare the smoke from some unit that can burn junk wood and still get heat its not the same thing.

Have you ever been on a roof and huffed the garbage coming out of a oil fired boiler chimney? may not see it but it's there. I've been down wind siding a barn for the last couple of weeks and I can tell within a few minutes when the house oil boiler kicked in. Stinks.

I feel really bad for the people that can't afford to heat their houses this winter. And will for one say that the outdoor boilers are certainly worth it. I don't care if they were 10% efficient I'd still own one if I could heat my house with it. Although I doubt with the results I am getting mine is 50% efficient but I haven't got the lab data yet. I am only putting in 10-12 pieces of wood 20" long per 24 hour period. They are big pieces of wood. And it has certainly not been too warm outside. That is for my home 2800 sq feet and domestic hot water. If I heat my barn it does take more wood, but that is 40x60, and only a few more sticks.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

Congratulations To Every Body That Burns Wood In Any Kind Of Wood Burner

Rich

[markcasper]

It was a good feeling to see the propane and fuel oil truck drive by my house today and not pull in. Even better feeling when you see it pull into the neighbors. We have a few miles of overgrown fencline brush, boxelder, elm, cherry, a few oak and we can't give it to anybody. Noone will come and cut it. Times are not the best, but it not that bad or some people would take us up on the offer.

[Sugarmaker]

Yea. Its like going to the freezer and only having steak to eat. The house is so warm right now I might have to open a window. Think I feel a cool draft so Cheryl probably has the door open upstairs:D
She told me not to get any more of that one year dried 150 year old hard maple. "It just heats too well". We might have to get some Propane this year but currently its at 5% on the 300 gallon tank and we will try not to buy any if we can keep the pipes from freezing;)

BTW we have the small wood furnace in the basement and ducted into the forced air furnace. We use about 4 to 6 full cord per year, depending on the type of wood.

I do need to fill the wood boxes today which should last us for about 2 weeks. We do have to fire a lot more often than those using outdoor wood systems. But all the heat is in the house!

Lots of folks will not be as fortunate as us when it comes to heating. And As My Dad always said "the wood doesn't fall into the basement". There is some good old fashion work to get the wood pile ready for winter!

Chris

[MR Electrician]

well guys he have a wood oil combo by (forgot the name big and green) the biggest one they made 170k btus.havent hooked up the oil to her yet just burn wood.
the house is a 7200 sq ft side split with a full basement .
we burn 15 to 18 bush cords a year depending if its hard or soft wood
and the house is a nice 72 deg all day
a little chilly in the morning but thats ok it wakes ya up.

and even though i work in the oil fields im going to weight as long as i can to hook up the oil tank.
oh anual heating cost
including chainsaw maint ,gas,oil ,diesel etc maybe $500.00

[Thad Blaisdell]

well guys he have a wood oil combo by (forgot the name big and green) the biggest one they made 170k btus.havent hooked up the oil to her yet just burn wood.
the house is a 7200 sq ft side split with a full basement .
we burn 15 to 18 bush cords a year depending if its hard or soft wood
and the house is a nice 72 deg all day
a little chilly in the morning but thats ok it wakes ya up.

and even though i work in the oil fields im going to weight as long as i can to hook up the oil tank.
oh anual heating cost
including chainsaw maint ,gas,oil ,diesel etc maybe $500.00


Newmac? Sounds exactly like mine:)

[Steveperkins]

We purchased a used Eshland Enterprises E140 boiler and hooked it into our oil only systm as an add on. Our home was built in 1860 and has plank walls. If you'er not familliar with plank walls, just picture a house built with 2x10s attatched to each other edge wise and stood vertically for the walls.The siding attached to the outside and lath to the inside. Not much insulation. The oil boiler in the home is/was a 165,000 BTU unit. The E140 is a 140,000 BTU. The first year here we burned 1200 gallons of fuel. After installing the E140 we now use 11 cords of wood and @ 100 gallons of oil.Thisfurnace is made in Penn. and goes by the name Alternate Heating Systems Inc. The boiler design has changed very little since the early 1980s. Check them out, I'm sure you will be impressed. I'm glad we took the chance!!

[kharvey]

Hi, You have to be a bit careful about this term. In the process of burning wood, gassification takes place no matter what. The key to this process is secondary combustion or burning these gases and developing usable BTU from this combustion. Most of the major outdoor furnace builders offer EPA phase II units which are extremely efficient and more expensive as well. I'm a big Heatmor fan; and if you look at almost any good Maple Syrup Arch you know why; Open Bottom in the combustion chamber = Refractory brick + Grates make for better air flow and quicker transformation from wood to charcoal. I have loaded a 200model with completely green red oak and watched most of the heavy "stinky" smoke dissapear during the first induction cycle (when the combustion fan comes on to drive the water temp. up). Google "Garn" if you want to see just how efficient a wood burner can be; they have been around forever!

[NH Maplemaker]

Are there any traders using a Portage and Main regasification outside wood Boiler? If so what do you think of them? They look very impressive. JimL. WWW.portageandMainBoilers.com

[Dill]

Timely old thread bump for me. Looks like the Dill farm will be moving this fall.
Its a giant old house 3800 sq ft with steam heat. So I'm looking at OWB.
What works, what didn't work as well? Is gasifaction worth the extra price?

[red maples]

Wow moving huh Dill??? still in the same town?

I will have to get a new boiler in a few years just waiting for this one to die finally. I am very interested in a wood boiler. for the portage and main the You tube video looks very impressive. the only thing that I don't see anywhere and maybe I just missed it is what the potential usage is on a ???? square foot building, how often it needs to be loaded, how much can be loaded at one time, and the ignition/ shut off, does it shut down to the point of barely burning wood if the water is hot. What happens if you go away somewhere do you have to have somebody load it(Obvoiusly you would have to ) ??? or do you still need some sort of backup for that. Just curious.

I do like the fact that there is little to no smoke and it seems very efficient.

[Dill]

Moving a whole town over. Still in Rockingham county though.

[SilverLeaf]

I've no experience with wood boilers, but wanted to throw this out there for consideration: have you looked into a geothermal system? We're in the process of getting one installed, and though they are definitely pricey on the install side, there is a Federal tax credit of up to 1/3 the cost which makes it pretty attractive.

Plus then you don't have to cut and split all that wood. ;)

[xyz5150]

Dill
Timely old thread bump for me. Looks like the Dill farm will be moving this fall.
Its a giant old house 3800 sq ft with steam heat. So I'm looking at OWB.
What works, what didn't work as well? Is gasifaction worth the extra price?
Speaking as a heatmor dealer since 2000 epa gasification outdoor wood boilers weren't developed necessarily for fuel savings but more for opening up market areas lost to local owb's regulations. Gasification owb's are fussy on wood types and moisture content, they have more components to fail and cost more money to construct. owb's get a bad rap for being smoky and consuming enormous amounts of wood manly because the are not loaded properly or with the correct type of fuel. I would not buy a gasification system unless a local ordinance made me do it.

[Dill]

Ok that makes sense. The new place is up on a hill with no setback issues or local regs against OWBs. What model heatmor should I look at? And what BTU range should I look at? The house has some insulation, and some new windows, but now much. Also looking to do hot water in the winter with the OWB for 2 baths plus a 1 bed 1 bath apartment.

[xyz5150]

Dill
Ok that makes sense. The new place is up on a hill with no setback issues or local regs against OWBs. What model heatmor should I look at? And what BTU range should I look at? The house has some insulation, and some new windows, but now much. Also looking to do hot water in the winter with the OWB for 2 baths plus a 1 bed 1 bath apartment.

Model 400 ( 400000 btu ) Heatmor rates it at 10000 sqft which it would do in Tennessee realistically here in Michigan and i'm sure in the northeast it would do about 5000-6000 sqft. Up on a hill with so so insulation its going to take some btu's to heat. Do you have a Heatmor dealer near you? If not i would buy a reputable brand with a GOOD dealer near you. Remember a warranty is only as good as the company giving the warranty find a brand and dealer that been in business for some time. Central boiler and wood master also have very good reputations in the industry.

[maplecrest]

dill guy in essex vt has a 6048 central boiler on vt craigs list for 6000 would heat your 3800 nicely

[Dill]

Well I have to sell my current place before I move, so at least I'll have all fall to figure this out.
Anyone want a log cabin in southern NH?

[holey_bucket]

The guy that engineered the Hurricane Force Five evaporator said he was near to production of these outdoor boilers for home heating [Jan 2010], and it would use the same technology as found in the Force Five. His name is Rejean Laverdiere. I haven't been able to find his company online yet, though. I'm very interested in seeing this.

Does anyone have updated information about this guy and his work?

[Amber Gold]

When I saw him in St. Albans last spring, you know what I know. I'm interested in them as well. I think I have his contact info if you want it. He also recently joined trader and he posted some messages in the maplerama thread under the VT association.