am I in the wrong?

[bobie]

basically wondering if i'm in the wrong
the conversations were civil, no arguing. But he seemed stuck on his number, and slightly confrontational when i didnt agree to his terms


The property i had to tap trees is owned by an older gentleman who is over the moon about someone tapping his trees(doesnt live on the property). ive been dealing through his granddaughter's husband(also a co worker of mine) who happens to live on the property. I was under the impression he was only interested in helping out, so i asked today what he was expecting out of this.(thinking a few bottles of syrup) he came back with he wants half of the finished syrup, and he collects all the sap. this to me seemed pretty steep considering all equipment/fuel/supplies are mine. so i came back with ill do everything and he gets a quarter of the finished syrup. still steep, but considering the convenience of the location i was ok with that.
he declined insisting on 50%, i told him id think about it(give him time to realize hes asking a little too much)
next thing i know he's backed out completely and i'm no longer able to tap that property.
now I am left wondering what happened!

[ecolbeck]

Makes me wonder if they understand the amount of work that goes into your end of the operation. How many taps were under discussion?

[bobie]

i was aiming for 100+/-
i feel like i was pretty generous with my offer, even if he was emptying buckets.
im just at a loss right now.

[Michael Greer]

Nope. He wants too much. Go find other trees. I have 200 taps in a friend's woods and he's extremely pleased with ten gallons of syrup.

[bobie]

Ok thank I was trying to be fair. I had been tapping trees at another place but it wasn’t convenient to tap there it was a bit further from home. He never really wanted anything in return. But I’d throw him a couple bottles anyways.. So I got talking to this guy everything seemed good until this. It just went to the other extreme. Kind of blew me away

[maple flats]

If he does all of the work and supplies all of the collection equipment, then delivers the sap to you, maybe. Otherwise no deal, you will be losing money. I fact I only give half of the syrup if the sugar % in the sap is 3%. To get that much they install their taps, collect the sap and deliver it as good clear fresh sap.

[Sugarmaker]

We rent all our trees. Basically 1 gallon of finished jugged syrup for every 100 taps. All my equipment labor and gathering. If they dont like that I move to different trees. I have about 10-12 folks I deal with most are fine with it. Once in a while I get someone that has issue. I will do the dance for maybe 1 year or two but if it remains a hassle I dont tap their trees and they can get there syrup somewhere else. I do have a friend that gets about 50% but he has paid for the lines and the containers and also helps gather it. When I was a kid we hung buckets gathered and delivered the sap to a neighbor and they boiled it. We did get 50% in that scenario. Maybe if he delivers it to your sugarhouse it might be worth it??
You didnt do any thing wrong. I think the owner may have been getting a little greedy. Good luck!
Regards,
Chris

[johnallin]

...next thing i know he's backed out completely and i'm no longer able to tap that property.
now I am left wondering what happened!

Don't think you meant to, but I think you pissed the old guy off.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

That’s unfortunate but I would move on for sure.

[Wanabe1972]

Wow I sure am happy with my deal. I have 100 plus taps down the road on a farm. I supply all equipment and labor and a gallon of syrup and a couple of pounds of cream. He does ask for a couple of fancy bottles at Christmas time for his kids. He gives me space in the barn for my vacuum pump and also pays for the power to run it. If he wanted 50 percent I would move on also.

[maple flats]

Are you sure it's the owner's idea or could it be your "Friend's" idea to need to get 50%?

[bobbyjake]

Bobie
It isn't clear from your description if the landowner actually had a realistic understanding of how much 50% would be. 100 taps might be 20-40 gallons of syrup in a modest to great year (with or without vacuum?). Assuming average year, no vac due to small amount of taps - say 25 gallons. Was he really thinking 12-13 gallons or was he off base on that as well? Yes, he was off base! Question is was he knowingly off base?

I am more-or-less inclined to agree with Sugarmaker, although I have gone to 2 gallons/100 taps when the trees are really good, or easy or a landowner also helps out at times or a strategic landowner to make something else come together. If he gathers it, it is somewhere between 1g/100 and the going rate of buying sap. If he gathers it and delivers it, its closer still to the going rate of buying sap. Full buying of sap delivered is close to 50% of the BULK value of the syrup when it shakes out, but then he supplies everything and that's still the BULK price per gallon which is 25-50% of the retail value of the syrup. Another way to consider it, lease rates are $1-$2/tap again depending on terms and vacuum, etc. $1/tap would be $100 or about 1.5-2 gallons, but that is you gathering and supplying everything, not him.

Whether you are talking 100 taps or 10,000, tapping agreements are about both parties being satisfied at the end of the day and it doesn't sound like that was going to happen. If he broke off the conversation after that, you should probably consider yourself lucky.

[bobie]

Nice to know I’m not wrong on this. I’m sure the guy knows what 50% is. Starting to think he was trying to take advantage. Probably thought I’d go with it thinking I had no other options.
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the older gentleman as he was just happy to have someone tapping trees.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
So going forward a good rate should be:
Dollar/tap or the equivalent in finished syrup
Or buy sap (their taps/buckets) delivered for 25% finished syrup

[johnallin]

Nice to know I’m not wrong on this. I’m sure the guy knows what 50% is. Starting to think he was trying to take advantage. Probably thought I’d go with it thinking I had no other options.
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the older gentleman as he was just happy to have someone tapping trees.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
So going forward a good rate should be:
Dollar/tap or the equivalent in finished syrup
Or buy sap (their taps/buckets) delivered for 25% finished syrup

I did not see, until this post, that you were dealing with the grandaughter's husband, and not the older gentleman. I think Dave may be correct that your "friend" may be getting greedy. Sounds like a bit of a free-loader to me. Maybe you need to have a talk with Grandpa?

[bobie]

I really don’t feel like getting into any disputes with anyone. So I’m just going to avoid talking about it. I do randomly run into the older gentleman. So I’m sure it will come up at some point. For now I’ve been asking around my area and online for some property to get into. Hope I find something. Looks like Sunday may be the start of the season here (eastern Ontario just west of Ottawa)
Cutting things a little close!