RO bucket

[canaanmaple]

Too much sap for my 2x4 got me to get the RO bucket kit they sell. currently getting almost 6% from 2% sap in one pass!

As long as it doesnt blow up, those dudes are awesome!

[maple flats]

I like hearing about success stories.

[canaanmaple]

I like hearing about success stories.


and getting 8% from my 3% sap tree stash on buckets! yeehaw!

[RC Maple]

I am just happy being able to go from 2% sap to 4% sap. While getting it dialed in for the first time last week - I just got mine last Tuesday, I tested the concentrate and it was 8-9%! The instructions say that is probably too much though and not the best way to run it. I do have a question though...the instructions say permeate has a shelf life of two days, why is that? It's just water, right? I know some have large tanks for storing permeate. What is there to spoil? By the way after the first few uses the RB10 that I have has worked great! I am looking forward to the return of good sap temperatures.

[Cjadamec]

Permeate has some trace sugar in it. The RO process does not make it sterile although it is pretty close. The RO bucket grade of RO filters don't make the water as pure as a higher grade higher pressure system would. Hence your permeate can and will grow bacteria given the chance. At that point what was permeate is now just regular water and should be treated as such.

[J Elmhorst]

what size of ro will produce 20 gallons of sap an hour? by only runinng it through once then into pan ?

[littleTapper]

Thanks for posting real experiences! I'm eyeing the RO bucket for next year's "investments" as I'm going to be pushing 90 taps with my 2x4 flat pan this year if the season ever shows up (most taps are silvers so they will be a very short season), but the rest are sugars. This info is helping solidify my needs/wants. Seems like the right way to go vs a different pan and making even more firewood.

[buckeye gold]

I have thought about getting one of these and adding more taps, but I can't make the math work. After looking at the RO Bucket website I see the specs. say you can run up to 15 gallons of sap an hour through the RO15 and get 7 gallons of concentrate. My S.L. Full pint pan will cook off 14-16 GPH, so how is this an advantage? If I fired up the evaporator and once I got it boiling good (takes about 20 minutes) I could cook off 15 gallon in an hour. If I was running it through the ro bucket I'd still have 7 gallons left to cook. So a good run for me is 75 gallon. Run that through an RO takes 5 hours and that yields 35 gallons of concentrate and then I have another 2hours of boiling...that's 7 hrs to do what I normally do in 5. What am I missing? I guess I could start cooking the concentrate when I had half it through the RO, but I still don't see a time savings.

[maple flats]

Most 125's should get about 30 gal/hr, so likely a 100 should get about 25 gal/hr.

[phil-t]

I have thought about getting one of these and adding more taps, but I can't make the math work. After looking at the RO Bucket website I see the specs. say you can run up to 15 gallons of sap an hour through the RO15 and get 7 gallons of concentrate. My S.L. Full pint pan will cook off 14-16 GPH, so how is this an advantage? If I fired up the evaporator and once I got it boiling good (takes about 20 minutes) I could cook off 15 gallon in an hour. If I was running it through the ro bucket I'd still have 7 gallons left to cook. So a good run for me is 75 gallon. Run that through an RO takes 5 hours and that yields 35 gallons of concentrate and then I have another 2hours of boiling...that's 7 hrs to do what I normally do in 5. What am I missing? I guess I could start cooking the concentrate when I had half it through the RO, but I still don't see a time savings.

Get the auto shutoff feature. You don't have to be there, only to start the RO. It does the work, not you.
Though I have not taken this step for similar reasons. Definitely see the advantage, just can't seem to bring myself into the ro world for what I do.

[Super Sapper]

I have thought about getting one of these and adding more taps, but I can't make the math work. After looking at the RO Bucket website I see the specs. say you can run up to 15 gallons of sap an hour through the RO15 and get 7 gallons of concentrate. My S.L. Full pint pan will cook off 14-16 GPH, so how is this an advantage? If I fired up the evaporator and once I got it boiling good (takes about 20 minutes) I could cook off 15 gallon in an hour. If I was running it through the ro bucket I'd still have 7 gallons left to cook. So a good run for me is 75 gallon. Run that through an RO takes 5 hours and that yields 35 gallons of concentrate and then I have another 2hours of boiling...that's 7 hrs to do what I normally do in 5. What am I missing? I guess I could start cooking the concentrate when I had half it through the RO, but I still don't see a time savings.

If you recirculate while you are boiling you will increase the amount of sap you go through 8 gallons per hour. This means it will only take 3.3 hours to go through your 75 gallons of sap. As others have said you can even start the RO earlier and it will save you even more time.

[buckeye gold]

You don't have to be there, only to start the RO. It does the work, not you. I understand for people who have to go to jobs how this is a big advantage, but I am retired and work for myself. I have all day everyday to boil. My bush and collection is 1/4 mile from my shack, so I still would have to move the sap and start up the RO. I do see your point super sapper that I get the evaporator going with say an hour worth of raw sap and then start the RO and I'm actually doing 20+ GPH then instead of 15. That makes the numbers work better, I was just thinking I had to run it all first. That would allow me to put out quite a few more taps. Thanks this is what I had missed

[Msboucha]

Buckeye Gold -- Another advantage to running an RO may be cost savings with fuel. We fire a good amount of our evaporation with propane/finish with wood. We use solar to generate power to run our RO (homebuilt 24V system like the RO bucket) so it essentially costs us nothing (initial investment in the solar aside, which we already had for other purposes). Even if you needed to run your RO Bucket off of the grid, you would find the cost of the electricity is probably a fraction of what other fuel sources will cost you to get to the same concentration - you won't need to spend as long evaporating. Yes, if you are wood and own your bush, you might consider it "free" fuel but what is your time worth to cut/split/stack and then there is the fuel/oil for your saws, etc..

[maple flats]

I'm retired too, but I'd be hard pressed to boil off the sap from about 1000 taps at 75-80 gph. I would start to lose interest I think. Back when I had a 2x6 I had 4 days in a row when we could not keep up, we boiled 18 hrs each on two of those days and 21 hrs each on the other two. That was my last year without an RO. Now with my 250 I can easily do 2000 gal and 1 day I did 2500 gal of sap in one day. Those were the exceptions however, my typical boil is now up to 4-5 hrs, most are 3-4 hrs, and I process sap from others too, on shares.

[RC Maple]

I have a question on how long the prefilters can be used. The instructions for the RO Bucket says if flushed and refrigerated between uses they can last a week. I last ran sap through mine last Tuesday. I flushed the filter I was using and put in in a bag in the fridge. I then did the same with a second filter I have only used for flushing. I just flushed it again today since it had been a week. How long do most of you go with the same filter(s)? What difference will I see if I use the same two flushed and refrigerated filters vs using two fresh ones once we get going again? I will probably be using some new ones but I just wanted to know what you that have had an RO or a bucket usually do.

[to100]

Your nose will tell you. They are cheap. It you have a long run, the flow slows then change. You need to prefilter with rayon every time you transfer before final bucket. Amazon have cases. Near end of season more often. Some use new each day. I used 5 or 6 last year. Once mid season I did not and also at the end because not enough to flush.

[Msboucha]

Last year I used a filter for each stretch of ROing before a boil - for example, I might RO three days during the week, 30-45 gallons at a time and then boil the concentrate saved at the end of the week. While starting to boil, I would give the RO a good flush and toss out the filter/replace with a new one for the next round. Bought a case of filters this year (best price in bulk) and will likely replace each time.

Don't do like I did and forget the old filter in the RO during a 10 day cold streak..... to quote to100:
Your nose will tell you.

[steve J]

ahhh I had also looked at the RO bucket as useless for me as I had done my math in same manner as buckeye. I have a 30 gallon feed tank that I pump sap into from a 150 gallon tank out back. If I understand right what you are suggesting is if I ran sap from feed tank thru the bucket and the process sap drained back into feed tank that this would be ok as well as speeding up my evaporation rate?

[Msboucha]

Steve J - You would want to send your feed tank through an RO and out into a concentrate tank and then slowly feed that concentrate tank into the evaporator based on your evaporation rate. I know some guys that are able to evaporate fast enough that they feed the concentrate from the RO directly into the evaporator while boiling. I suppose you could send it back into your feed tank, but it would basically be recirculating it and you wouldn't be boiling as high a concentrated sap.

[steve J]

Well than I really dont get the math than. I boil at around 20 gph and the bucket at best does 15 gph giving you about 7.5 gallons . of concentrate. Thats not nearly enough to be feeding evaporator. and my feed is regulated by a float attach to feed tank.

[Msboucha]

The idea is that you set it and forget it. I start the RO and leave for hours, it auto shuts down when it runs out of sap. You can't do that with an evaporator. Then when you do boil you are boiling higher concentrate sap, which actually boils faster because it has less water in it. The math works because otherwise people wouldn't do it..

[snoskier16]

...it auto shuts down when it runs out of sap.

What type of sensor/switch are you using to auto shutdown at sap runout? I’m wired for float switches, but haven’t set one up for the feed tank.

[Msboucha]

snoskier16 -- Are you 24VDC? You can grab bilge pump float switches on Amazon pretty cheap. I have my RO set with a bypass switch allowing me to run the system if the pressure/float switches aren't satisfied, reason being, you may still have some sap in your tank when the float shuts off and want to force it to run. For the low pressure shut off, its easier to flip a switch to start initial pressure building than fool with some of the built in bypass switches on the low pressure sensor itself.

[snoskier16]

Gotcha! My controls are 12vdc and I'm using inexpensive float switches from Amazon to shut the RO down when my concentrate containers get full. Here is a photo of the switch on the 3D printed bracket that I designed for a 5-gallon bucket, but I typically use the switch mounted in a 3D printed cap for 5-gallon water jugs as they are easier to handle and put into the refrigerator for storage prior to boiling.

http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19631&stc=1

[Msboucha]

Ah nice! I don't have any floats on my concentrate tank which is just a 30 gallon Xtreme cooler. I run a calculator and know my flow rates, so I know if my tank will be too full or not based on what I'm feeding. I throw frozen jugs of water in it to keep it cold during the week. A lot of the bilge floats are 12-24-36vdc, so check it out, just mount it to the bottom of you feed tank.

[Daveg]

what size of ro will produce 20 gallons of sap an hour? by only runinng it through once then into pan ?
RO membraes are typically rated by their gpd (gallons per day) capacity, so you could estimate the size your need by: 20gphX 24 hours= 480 gpd minimum membrane capacity to suit your needs.
A quick internet search showed this one:
DOW Filmtec TW30-3012-500 Reverse Osmosis Membrane. Processes up to 500 gallons per day. Filmtec TMF-500 RO replacement water filter membrane that fits many newer RO systems with wider, 3" housings. Newer technology of the membrane film, Polyamide thin-film composite.

[David Wayne]

I have been thinking of getting one of these. How much
Maintenance is involved? Do you clean and flush at the end of each day. I think I would want to feed directly to my evaporator each day and not run ahead. I have a leader half pint supreme so 7-8 gph. or a little less.
Thanks

[Daveg]

No, you do not clean and flush every day. Change the 5 micron filters when they look bad or performance slows (the housing is clear so you can see if there's a lot of debris accumulating). The decision on whether or not to process ahead of time depends on a lot of factors, including the forecast, your sap inventory, your storage capacity, your time.

[Msboucha]

Do you clean and flush at the end of each day?

David - You don't necessarily need to clean, as in do a soap wash each run, but I would say you definitely want to do a flush and change your filters each time you run. When you are done running, pull out your filter and toss it (or else put it in a bag and keep cold so it doesn't grow bacteria) . Throw a clean filter into the filter housing to use for the flush. Suck the the water out of the permeate tank, and send the concentrate line to the drain. Remove any restriction and let it cycle the water, you'll send any residual sugar down the drain. Run all the permeate that you have. I know people say to wash/rinse with as many gallons as their membranes are rated, but I don't generate enough permeate in an an entire season to do that. I generally run 40 gallon batches of sap and have had good luck with flushing using the 20-30 gallons of permeate it generates. When I do a soap wash, I substitute with well water as needed to get the PH back to normal and then some additional flushing for good measure. Pull out the filter after the flush, store for next flush and leave the housing open to the air until next use. At the end of the season, do a soap wash, add preservative, store the membranes in a vessel and in the spring do a soap wash.

[David Wayne]

Thanks, I have 100 trees tapped, collected 130 gallons tonight witch is just what I boiled today. Thats a lot for my little set up but I am retired and have the time.
The forecast looks like I will start getting behind. But with the RB15 I should be able to run 150 daily and keep up without boiling 16+ hours a day.
So I am going to give it a try but it looks like they are running behind on shipments.

Thanks again,
David

[DRoseum]

You can always build one for cheaper. Most of the parts are available on Amazon or your local hardware store. I built a custom RO using an aquatec 8800 and 400 gpd membrane I got from amazon. Worked pretty well, saved me a ton of boiling time and fuel! Planning to add a 2nd 400 gpd membrane for next season. Only had 38 taps and around 400 gallons of sap total. But you can scale this up a bit or build 2 of them and run in parallel.

https://youtu.be/s106bSrcfno
https://www.sugartree.run/p/sugaring-diy.html