different draw offs vs niter production?

[canaanmaple]

Yesterday I observed a difference in niter in suspension on different batches drawn off and finished. The first batch I drew off ended up perfectly crystal clear after only a few hours of settling in gallon jars, and all the niter had completely settled to the bottom. (which is my preferred way of filtering and have been doing it with success for a while) The second draw off was the same light amber color, but the niter is not settling out too much at all.

I am curious if this is because of something I did wrong. Could this be related at all draw off rates and the pan is getting more and more sweet. The sugar content in the flue pan is currently above 30%. Could I have gotten the syrup pan too hot before that draw? I had one instance of a foam up in the syrup pan, and had to draw off a larger batch to get it to settle down. I am curious if anyone knows if any factors like that could have caused the niter staying in suspension and not settling out.

This is not intended to be looking for filtering recommendations, but rather looking for reasons for the difference in the niter being left suspended in the syrup, rather than settling at the bottom. I always thought the longer the sap boils in the pan, the larger the crystals get, which are heavy enough to settle out at the bottom. The first draw clearly has bigger crystals though, so I mustve messed up something else.

first draw
19462

second
19463


thanks!

[bowhunter]

My guess, and it's only a guess, would be that the turbulence from the vigorous boiling during the boil up caused the larger crystals to break in to fines or produced smaller crystals.

[canaanmaple]

My guess, and it's only a guess, would be that the turbulence from the vigorous boiling during the boil up caused the larger crystals to break in to fines or produced smaller crystals.

That kind of makes sense in a way, and I hope you are right :) I'll draw off some more later when I get things going again and check it. What's in the pan right now looks pretty **** clear with niter settled at bottom.

Hybrid pan, but the syrup drawoff pan is on the right... hope that was my mistake.

19464

[Sugarmaker]

canaanmaple,
I dont know your syrup making history? Or the size of your operation? You have a pan that is divided and boiling pretty well in the outside channels but not as well in the center?? Not sure whats happening there?
But from your post I would suspect that you are using a R.O. to get to 30 brix in the flue pan? With a good fire it seems you could get a really good over boil as it thickens there even faster due to the hard boil in the flue pan.
back to the niter.
Not too many folks use settling to filter syrup so my guess is that you have less than 100 taps and are mostly making syrup as a hobby?
Since I dont use settling and cant give you any words of wisdom there I would say that accumulated sugar sand build up in a high brix system may come out of the draw off at different rates? But thats just a guess.
Just a guess but niter settling could take days to end up with clear syrup on top only?
Your pan can get more and more sweet, but if your drawing off syrup at the correct density then the pan should have developed its gradient and should not vary much between batches.
Regards,
Chris

[canaanmaple]

canaanmaple,
I dont know your syrup making history? Or the size of your operation? You have a pan that is divided and boiling pretty well in the outside channels but not as well in the center?? Not sure whats happening there?
But from your post I would suspect that you are using a R.O. to get to 30 brix in the flue pan? With a good fire it seems you could get a really good over boil as it thickens there even faster due to the hard boil in the flue pan.
back to the niter.
Not too many folks use settling to filter syrup so my guess is that you have less than 100 taps and are mostly making syrup as a hobby?
Since I dont use settling and cant give you any words of wisdom there I would say that accumulated sugar sand build up in a high brix system may come out of the draw off at different rates? But thats just a guess.
Just a guess but niter settling could take days to end up with clear syrup on top only?
Your pan can get more and more sweet, but if your drawing off syrup at the correct density then the pan should have developed its gradient and should not vary much between batches.
Regards,
Chris

No RO in use on this run (I just checked sugar content in the flue pan with a refractometer after I was done boiling for the day to make sure it was enough sugar content that it wouldnt freeze up in the pan too bad) I'm at 130 taps tapped, but still have 85 more to go. I sell to small gift shops around if the product is good and clear, which I have never had issue with settling and pouring off before re-heating to bottle. (anyhow not meant to be a how to filter thread..)

The front pans (dividers) over the firebox seemed to boil more and more as it got closer to syrup. I guess I shouldve drawn off some before the front one got too carried away. Hoping that is the reason for niter that won't settle

[DrTimPerkins]

My guess, and it's only a guess, would be that the turbulence from the vigorous boiling during the boil up caused the larger crystals to break in to fines or produced smaller crystals.

That's a reasonable guess, and could be what is causing it. Could also be a bunch of other things as well, and speculation would be just that. Realistically -- it doesn't matter much. Niter can vary quite a lot in the amount and composition of what is produced. You pretty much just have to deal with what you get.

[Ed R]

I've had sugar sand change color/size/suspendability just from boiling sap from different sections of the same 40 acre woodlot. Is your tree and soil composition the same throughout?

[Chickenman]

I had the same issue with the last gallon I made. First time using my vacuum filter. I thought it was either did not rinse the wool and papers well enough, or the vacuum pulled it through to fast. I emptied all into pot heated it back to 185 degrees, added some DE I got from a another producer and re-filtered. Clearest syrup I have ever had. Don't know what caused it but I found a solution to my issue. I did notice that when I filtered off the pan as I always do that the sand seemed finer then normal. Might just be the way it is this year. My first year the sand was like rocks. This year seems fluffy.

[canaanmaple]

I've had sugar sand change color/size/suspendability just from boiling sap from different sections of the same 40 acre woodlot. Is your tree and soil composition the same throughout?

No, where i have tubing is different that where I have buckets, but all the sap is mixed in the bulk container on the truck and gets pretty well sloshed around. Both draws in the picture above are from the same mixed sap container. I'll surely find out soon next draw, and being very careful to not let the syrup pan get carried away to see if that is my answer. Will report results in this high un-controlled experiment! :)

[canaanmaple]

I had the same issue with the last gallon I made. First time using my vacuum filter. I thought it was either did not rinse the wool and papers well enough, or the vacuum pulled it through to fast. I emptied all into pot heated it back to 185 degrees, added some DE I got from a another producer and re-filtered. Clearest syrup I have ever had. Don't know what caused it but I found a solution to my issue. I did notice that when I filtered off the pan as I always do that the sand seemed finer then normal. Might just be the way it is this year. My first year the sand was like rocks. This year seems fluffy.

For producers that use DE as a filtering agent, how does that affect labeling? how is it not considered an additive?

[Chickenman]

DE is a food industry approved filtering medium. It is not really "added" to the product but only to pass product through it. It just happens that the syrup is used as the carrier to coat the filtering devise.

In the grape industry, we add the DE to the juice then it goes to a vacuum filtering drum. It is different then syrup but similar in process. Apple juice, cranberry, all filtered the same way.

[DrTimPerkins]

In the grape industry, we add the DE to the juice then it goes to a vacuum filtering drum. It is different then syrup but similar in process. Apple juice, cranberry, all filtered the same way.

You can add beer, wine, soda, bottled water....many types of liquid food/beverage are filtered with DE. Since it is all removed in the filtering process, it needn't be added to the label. Basically the same as you don't have to list your filter cloth as an ingredient.