Gravity Mainline Installation Q's

[Goggleeye]

This year has proven the wettest year yet, and as things would have it, my most productive woodlot is also the hardest to collect, given that my collection barrels are all along the bottom of little finger ridges that terminate as creek bottom. Is there any way to install a gravity mainline on minimal slope so I can access a collection point from the high ground of a logging road? Attached is a drawing of the woodlot. My guess is that the best drop I could get over the 500 feet is about 5 feet, otherwise, I will have to compromise the trees along the margin of the bottom. Right now I have about 135 taps in this woodlot, with the potential for 175 or so.
What is the minimum slope needed for gravity mainline? What size of mainline? Any other ideas?
I don't think vacuum would be an option, as the location is a mile from power, but I don't really know what other options there would be for such a setup.
Thanks
MG
19445

[Mark-NH]

I can't answer whether you can run gravity or not because I really don't know all the specifics but you can pump the sap from your collection/low point out to a place where you can load it into a tank for transport with an inexpensive gas pump and a roll of waterline.

[JoeJ]

You have a 1% grade and that will work as long as you properly install the pipeline. By that I mean use a laser level to set grade, use a string keep the pipe on grade between grade points, and post the line every 8' to minimize sags. I would use 1" pipe with tension grips and ratchets on both ends to keep the pipe as straight and tight as possible.

Joe

[buckeye gold]

Five feet of drop would get you the minimum recommended fall for a drain line. We used to have a lot of drain lines at work (I'm talking miles of drains) and we could get by with an 1/8th inch per foot if we had head behind it. Which you will have with sap coming from higher elevation. You'll probably have to run wire to keep it tight and straight without sags. It will be slow, but saps come that way.

[maple flats]

Absolutely can be done. As said, run 1" line and keep it tight on steel support wire. Is the 5'/500' a guess or did you check it? If a guess you might be surprised, it might be a little more drop which will help. Don't buy a laser, but use one if you have access to one. If you can get 7.5' uniform drop in that 500' a 3/4" main will be fine. As said above, use posts if need be to eliminate sags.
The other option of pumping can also work well. A pump line that you can start pumping maybe up 10' higher than where the mainline would be, then sloped without sags to your destination tank will work well too. At one lease I used to have I pumped 900' thru 1.5" pipe, with just 2' drop over the first 400', then the drop went to 13' more drop over the next 500'. I raised the top line 4' more to get the line to drain well (so the 2' drop was then 6' drop in 400').

[TapTapTap]

I agree with others - it absolutely can be done. But you need to be accurate and tight, which becomes more important as the slope gets shallow. It is not all that easy without experience and the right tools. Sags in the line will freeze up and be a major annoyance. A properly installed main line should completely drain itself (no sags).

You need to start with a good survey using a laser or optical level and grade rod so that you can develop a plan.

[maple flats]

In my early days when putting up main lines in my flattest areas (thus maple flats) I used a sight level. It was made to be hand held, but when trying to set lines with minimal slope I made a wooden holder that was adjustable and I mounted it on a camera tripod. I could then set slopes that were about 1% (1'/100') without any problems. However it required 2 people. Me to look thru the site level and a helper to place a marker on the trees that were to support the line. In one spot of about 150 or so feet I had to set it at about .75'/100. That was hard to keep all sags out, but I managed. It can be done.
I found that the tripod held the site level totally steady which helped a lot. If you are working in an area where you can do 2% slope (2'/100) hand held works fine, maybe even 1.5% slope but less than that the tripod helps.

[Goggleeye]

Thanks for all the advice - that is what i was hoping to hear. I have a friend with a laser level, so setting the grade should not be difficult. Can a person use trees as posts for the mainline where they exist in route, or do they need to be on posts? My thought here is if squirrels create a problem when mainline is on trees?
I think I can get the high tensile wire strung tight fairly easily, but I think where I will struggle is getting the mainline tight on the wire. Based on what you all said, I assume I will need the mainline tension grips on each end. How does a person tighten the mainline tensioners?
Also, should I use 3/4 or 1 inch mainline on the two branches of the mainline? And I would imagine I would use a tension grip at both the tee and upper end of the 2 mainline branches?
Last question for this round - is mainline work best done in the summer so it has less memory when a person puts it up, or doesn't it really matter?

Thanks
Mark

[maple flats]

I use trees where there are enough. When more support is needed I use posts. Side ties to other trees help too if they are not too far away.

[JoeJ]

It is Ok, in my opinion to attach to trees occasionally if the tree is in line, otherwise I don't like large zig-zags. Then post in between trees

I use 2 ratchets on each line at each end, one for the wire and one for the tension grip.

I would use all 1" pipe on the branches. Better vacuum transfer when sap is in the line.

If you install pipe in the fall or winter, you have to be careful not to tighten it too tight. otherwise, the pipe shrinkage in cold weather could possibly pull the pipe of a fitting. Obviously, in the summer you would want to tension the pipe less than in cold weather. When I did my 2,000 tap install in 2013 in the summer, we kind of pulled the pipe through the tension grip as tight as we could by hand, then turned the ratchet
a couple of notches. We must have used the right technique because in the 12,600' of 1" main line we installed, there is not a single snake spot nor have any fittings pulled apart. The 1" line were generally 500' to 650' long.

Joe

[Bruce L]

The last several rolls of mainline we have put up we now attach a hose clamp,say 100’ or so ahead of where we are tying onto the mainline with wire ties,then hook a nylon ratchet strap to the hose clamp and a nearby tree,and ratchet the mainline tight,and I do go tight. Since doing this our lines no longer snake or sag.

[Goggleeye]

Thanks for all that input. I really beginning to see in my mind all of that coming together. While fixing rat chews today, I did some surveying - pretty sure I could add 75+ more taps on that woodlot - to a total of 200 or so with what you all have suggested.

But then I got to wondering if I could pump that all the way to the top of the hill so I didn't even have to dive off the big hill to what has turned into this year a giant mud slip and slide, even with a borrowed 4WD tractor. What would it take to pump that out of the bottoms about 1200 foot with a 30 - 40 feet (at most) rise?

And then my next question is this. How far does vacuum effectively work? The way our farm lays, I could put in 2 - 1500 foot lines to our sugar shack and collect from about 125 to 150 taps each. As it is now, I have multiple short runs going into barrels along the bottoms, and it would be about a 30 - 40 foot elevation change to our sugar shack. Is this a reasonable set-up for vacuum?

Thanks,Mark

[JoeJ]

You can run 1" pipe 1,500' and get 6 cfm's at the end. Enough to install 447 taps without a dry line. This would depend on what the CFM's of your vacuum pump is and how may other lines you are using.

Joe

[Goggleeye]

How far off the ground do I need to put this mainline in order for the critters to not mess with it? Or have you found that is generally not an issue? Do passing coyotes or coons chew on it? Or do I just need to get it out of the reach of the tree rats? (No bears in my area - yet.)

[maple flats]

I have most of my tubing between waist high and just a little over my head. Squirrels will mainly chew at trees, deer will chew in between the trees. I have no moose nor bears and have had no coyote nor coons chewing yet. Last year was the first time deer chewed, but once they discovered it, the repairs had to be made often, like every day or 2.

[Goggleeye]

Another question:
Do I need to buy/make a mainline tool, or does anyone have any suggestions for another way to put in a few y's without a fancy tool? I don't have a lot of mainline, and will only be putting in about three y's at this point.

Also, I have fairly long runs that will be coming down to my mainlines. How does a person keep enough tension on them as they enter the mainline? I can't see those slide connectors taking all that pull. I've seen where some folks use the hollow braided rope to tension. I was planning on doing that unless someone has other/better suggestions.

Thanks
Mark

[tcross]

i dont' have a main line tool and use a blow torch and just push the "y" on. you kind of have to go slow though. you don't want to heat up the tubing too much. and your second question... I dont' use the slide connectors at the main line (i do have some at the tree end of the lateral). I use regular main line connector hooks... the main line hooks can take a LOT of tension. pull them tight and you'll be fine!

[mol1jb]

I do use the braided rope a lot at ends and even throughout my tubing and that works great.

[ddociam]

Absolutely can be done. As said, run 1" line and keep it tight on steel support wire. Is the 5'/500' a guess or did you check it? If a guess you might be surprised, it might be a little more drop which will help. Don't buy a laser, but use one if you have access to one. If you can get 7.5' uniform drop in that 500' a 3/4" main will be fine. As said above, use posts if need be to eliminate sags.
The other option of pumping can also work well. A pump line that you can start pumping maybe up 10' higher than where the mainline would be, then sloped without sags to your destination tank will work well too. At one lease I used to have I pumped 900' thru 1.5" pipe, with just 2' drop over the first 400', then the drop went to 13' more drop over the next 500'. I raised the top line 4' more to get the line to drain well (so the 2' drop was then 6' drop in 400').





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[Goggleeye]

Got the mainline mostly installed. A friend with a laser level helped me mark out the flattest areas and we got a 1-1.25%slope. Was able to get 2-3 % on the rest. On the wire I have a gripple on the top end and a ratchet on the bottom end . I’m a little hesitant to really crank it tight. I have 12.5 high tensile. How tight should I go-using a 10 in crescent on the ratchet? Same for the mainline tensioner. How tight should I go? The mainline I installed on the steeper slope I wire tied every foot or so while the kids pulled on it and it doesn’t seem to have any sags. Seems to me like the tensioners are more for taking the sag out while it’s being tied than keeping it straight once it is tied. Thoughts?

[n8hutch]

Generally my Ratchets start to show signs of failure before the wire will fail, your not looking to maintain your line pitch/slope with the ratchet and mainline wire, that's what your side ties are for. You just go along and tie your mainline off to something anywhere where you have a sag to maintain your slope. My side ties are easily adjustable because you will notice a change when the tubing warms up a 500' roll of tubing is easily a few inches longer at 50° than 0°