The effects of rain on tap holes.

[Sugar Bear]

Its obvious that the warmer the air is the sooner tap holes get shut down from "whatever".

Is there anything about the effects of rain water running down a tree and seeping in around the edges of the the tap and shutting down the tap hole from "whatever"?

[Russell Lampron]

The "whatever" you are referring to is bacteria. Rain water shouldn't get into your tap holes if the tap is properly seated.

[Cjadamec]

A properly set tap in a properly drilled hole can hold up to 27" of vacuum. The slight taper of the spout makes it very easy to get this tight seal and it doesn't require very much force when setting the tap. There is no way any meaningful amount of rain water is getting in to the tap hole from the seal between the tap and the tree.

Your concern with rain should only be to keep it out of your collection barrels / buckets so you don't make more boiling work than you already have.

[Sugar Bear]

So my question is not about "whatever" and what "whatever" is. That is why I said "Whatever" so that I could provide a loose broad term for bacteria and or any other microbes that nobody would get side tracked on. But you managed that anyway.

Its about whether there is any research showing if rain expedites the infiltration of rain water and also bacteria/whatever into the tap hole which in turn shuts down the flow of sap fro m the hole?

Its easy just to say its a "tight fit" and that is blatantly obvious.

A tight fit and reality and water infiltration are frequently different things. Very frequently.

So the question, while it is a good one, deserves a good answer other then just restating the obvious!

[DrTimPerkins]

A plastic 5/16" spout shouldn't have any water infiltration into the taphole, whether on vacuum or gravity, assuming it is put in at the proper orientation.

Older 7/16" bucket spouts (and perhaps some 5/16" spouts) could potentially have a bit of water get back in there, but it is likely to be so minor an issue that to my knowledge it hasn't been studied. What was a bigger issue in the age of buckets was water running down the tree and dripping off the spout into the bucket, contaminating and diluting the sap (this is what can sometimes make the sap yellow or brown--the tannins from the tree bark). There were a couple of different approaches in spout design and spout shields to prevent/reduce this.

[bigschuss]

So my question is not about "whatever" and what "whatever" is. That is why I said "Whatever" so that I could provide a loose broad term for bacteria and or any other microbes that nobody would get side tracked on. But you managed that anyway.

Its about whether there is any research showing if rain expedites the infiltration of rain water and also bacteria/whatever into the tap hole which in turn shuts down the flow of sap fro m the hole?



Its easy just to say its a "tight fit" and that is blatantly obvious.

A tight fit and reality and water infiltration are frequently different things. Very frequently.

So the question, while it is a good one, deserves a good answer other then just restating the obvious!

This is a very important issue to you I see.

[Sugarmaker]

Not that I have heard of?
Regards,
Chris

[Sugar Bear]

OK

No offense to anybody on this website, your all brilliant with brilliant ideas.

I am a retired computer programmer and am working on a "Tappers conundrum algorithm" i.e. "when to tap algorithm?"

So with what I am getting here I should have no information feed on Rain/Heavy Rain/ Warm Rain in the near forecast any more or less so then say just the same conditions without rain ( amounts may differ ) ?

You guys of course may be 100% correct that rain has no baring on the lifespan of a tap, but for various reasons I am not completely convinced.

Imagine, and you can, our world without rainfall.

We would all be flying airplanes into buildings rather then making maple syrup.

The Bear.

[DrTimPerkins]

Rain has an effect on sap runs in that soil moisture is needed for uptake during the freeze cycle. So either good snow and melt, or rain to replenish the soil is good in the spring for sap runs.

As far as rain getting into the taphole...either you're amazingly brilliant for thinking of something nobody else has ever considered, or you have WAY too much time on your hands thinking about things related to sugaring. If I had to guess I'd say it was the latter -- not to worry though....it's a common affliction among maple producers this time of year. It is also NOT the craziest thing I've heard by far :D

[Sugarmaker]

Why am I confused? Obviously your way smarter that I am in your ability to write a program that tells us when to tap. Awesome !I want to be one of the first to try it. But please consider that we, and you, don't have much control over Mother nature as to when the sun shines, when its cold when its warm and or when it rains or when the wind blows or how much moisture we have in the ground or whatever she throws at us each spring..... Anyway. I am confused about the

"Rain/Heavy Rain/ Warm Rain in the near forecast any more or less so then say just the same conditions without rain ( amounts may differ )"

This doesnt say a thing related to water infiltrating a tap hole around a inserted spout? Bungs have been known to stop water from leaking out of barrels filled with fluid for years. Educate me! I agree if the tap is not set right you might get water in, but I bet you would get more sap on the ground than water in the tap hole?

In summary are you interested in water contaminating the tap hole or rain affecting when we tap?
Let me ask a dumb question? How much syrup have you made?


Sorry Dr Tim and I posted at the same time, I think the thought process was similar?:) Cant wait to test this program next year. My zip is 16401.
Regards,
Chris

[whity]

Are you referring to water entering the tap hole if your tapping in the rain? Prior to inserting the tap? Or effects of water getting in after pulling taps? Or possibly water/rain seeping around the tap?

[Sugar Bear]

"Rain/Heavy Rain/ Warm Rain in the near forecast any more or less so then say just the same conditions without rain ( amounts may differ )"

This doesnt say a thing related to water infiltrating a tap hole around a inserted spout? Bungs have been known to stop water from leaking out of barrels filled with fluid for years. Educate me! I agree if the tap is not set right you might get water in, but I bet you would get more sap on the ground than water in the tap hole?


Chris

Chris and Tim

I am sure you have both made more syrup and are smarter then me. I am on this website trying to pic the brains of people smarter then me.

OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one.

The algorithm is not intended for large operations like yours who need to get taps in early just because they have so many and so much time is required to get it done.

Its more for the small guy who says in late January or early February ...

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with 2" of rain == "DON'T TAP YET"

VS

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with no rain == "TAP ANYWAY"

Not real complicated.

Just no evidence that anybody can come up with in order to support the LOC. ( Line Of Code )

Thanks for your request but the LOC will all be in my head NFS or PU.

Thanks

[Sugar Bear]

Are you referring to water entering the tap hole if your tapping in the rain? Prior to inserting the tap? Or effects of water getting in after pulling taps? Or possibly water/rain seeping around the tap?

Water seeping around the tap. No matter how perfect we think or know the seal is.

[Cjadamec]

"OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one."

I could understand your position that you feel the tap is not sealed into the tree nearly as well as we are saying it is. Having spent years working as an engineer on ships and in the marine engineering industry I am fully well aware at how well water can find its way into places you don't want it to.

However there is a ton of real world data, collected by university research centers and backyard tappers, that support the idea that the tap forms and excellent seal into the tree. The simple fact that a 25-27" vacuum is achievable with no mechanical pumps or aids stands testament to how well the taphole is sealed. The smallest air leak into a 3/16 gravity tubing system will drastically lower the vacuum in the tubing. A water molecule is an order of magnitude larger than an air molecule. If we aren't getting air sucked into the tubing around the taphole we sure as heck aren't getting water in either.

Nobody here is trying to outsmart you, we are only presenting you with data collected via countless hours in the woods. Also we aren't dealing with dry or green wood, we are dealing with living trees actively responding to the hole that was just drilled into them. There is a huge difference between living wood in a tree trunk and cut down dead wood.

[Sugar Bear]

[I]"OK ...

If we aren't getting air sucked into the tubing around the taphole we sure as heck aren't getting water in either.



Even if it is the "Perfect" tap are we certain of the above statement ?

BTW .... Green wood is my term for live living wood or freshly cut wood.

Won't Green wood, Dry Wood and or Living Wood all seal off oxygen well enough to form a substantial vacuum yet still transfer moisture from one position to another?

No I'm not trying to outsmart anyone either.

I'll need a good answer to that one.

[DrTimPerkins]

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with 2" of rain == "DON'T TAP YET"

VS

If we have several days of good taping weather ahead of us followed by some unseasonably warm weather (both night and day) with no rain == "TAP ANYWAY"

Not real complicated.
Just no evidence that anybody can come up with in order to support the LOC. ( Line Of Code )



There is no evidence that would suggest either tapping or holding off tapping based upon a forecast of rain would be either good or bad, mostly likely because it A) doesn't happen (water moving into taphole) at all or, at best, very much, or B) that it has any significant effect. Thus including a line of code would be superfluous.

[DrTimPerkins]

Even if it is the "Perfect" tap are we certain of the above statement ?

BTW .... Green wood is my term for live living wood or freshly cut wood.

Won't Green wood, Dry Wood and or Living Wood all seal off oxygen well enough to form a substantial vacuum yet still transfer moisture from one position to another?

No I'm not trying to outsmart anyone either.

I'll need a good answer to that one.

There is extraordinarily little water movement through the bark. If there were, vessels that formed in the outer rings would cavitate and be rendered non-functional. As far as leaks from vacuum tubing....if spouts are tapped properly, they are essentially vacuum tight (that is the point after all). There is no benefit to the tree, and considerable detriment, in allowing any substantial amount of water to move from the xylem (wood) to the outside. Note that this is less true at the twig level where there are lenticels that can allow some gas/vapor exchange with the atmosphere.

The gases that appear in tubing (along with sap) are coming directly from the tree itself as a result of respiration and are enriched in CO2. The amount of gas produced is dependent upon the temperature of the wood. Air molecules are way smaller than water molecules.

[Sugar Bear]

Thanks for your informative answers.

I wont factor foretasted heavy warm rain into my "Time to Tap" algorithm.

[Ed R]

Here is my small time tappers algorithm, look for a forecast with two days in a row when the night time lows are in the mid to low 20s and the day time highs reach 40 degrees and it's above freezing by 11 am, then its time to think about tapping. I like to tap in the frozen wood in the morning and have everything tapped by the 10 to 11 am warm up. If you have under 100 taps it should be doable, I do it every year on my hobby operation. Sap never runs better than the first day you tap, why waste it by tapping on a marginal day if your a hobbiest. This type of weather "usually" only happens when it's clear.

[Sugarmaker]

Humm,
Sugar Bear,

I was asking the question about the quantity of syrup you have made to get a idea of your maple background. FYI, I generally make 100 to 150 gallons per year which is not much syrup. Just a small producer interested in learning and mentoring.

Also:
Your quote" "I am sure you have both made more syrup and are smarter then me. I am on this website trying to pic the brains of people smarter then me.

OK ... you have made it clear. If bung holes made with threaded polymers are sealing liquid then certainly a polymer tap installed in and surrounded by wood cellulose ( surrounded my a good water seal of bark ) are also keeping any water out.

I am a woodworker now ( no brains required ) and would respectfully and fully disagree with that statement, under no uncertain terms. I have had too much time and too many hobbies and played around with too much wood both wet and green to subscribe to that one."

Sounds like with your background you already have the answers about of water infiltration?

What do you really want from the folks on the Trader?
BTW I never worry about how smart a person is to get ideas about something. Ideas can come from anyone!

Looks like we might tap next Tuesday.

Regards,
Chris

[Russell Lampron]

Wooden barrels didn't have threaded bung holes. The bung was also a piece of wood that was tapered much like a tap and it was seated into the bung hole much like a tap is seated into a tree. No liquid leaked out or in. Think beer keg which would also have pressure pushing out against the bung and it still didn't leak. The worst things about tapping in the rain would be footing on a side hill with ice on it and that you would be getting soaked. For an algorithm for sap flow it would depend on the temperature before the rain. Sometimes the sap will run in the rain and sometimes it won't.

[Sugarmaker]

Set gathering containers in rain yesterday. Maybe not smart enough to come in out of it but they are done! Turned cold last night. Ice on puddles and its snowing. Next warm spell we can tap.
Regards,
Chris