HELP With small vacuum setup

[Mac102004]

Well, it seems the more I search and read, the more I'm confused on this subject. haha

I'm pretty small scale, I have about 50-60 taps. Last year I managed to get everything run into about 12-15 5gal buckets, but looking to improve yield a bit with vacuum and have everything collect into one barrel.

I'll try to attach a picture for reference but this I think is my first post so not sure how that will go. I took my Garmin out and took some shots where the trees/clusters of trees were to get an idea of how to run a mainline. My idea is to actually run two mainlines on one pump located on the south end of the map, with a 55gal collection barrel. One line being 250ft (left) and the other 200ft (right). This will follow the existing path through the sugar bush (I use that term loosely haha) and just make it easier to run the mainline. Then from the mainline(s) I want to run 5/16" lines to the trees.

There is no slope to speak of, the whole thing is pretty level just going by eye. I'm thinking Shurflo 4008 for a pump. Is 3/4" mainline ideal or too much? Will that pump handle it or is there a better choice? Should I be running 2 pumps? I want to put it on a thermostat and run it off a deep cycle battery. hoping it will at least make the day like that then swap batteries to charge as needed. The bush is about 1km from the nearest 120v power.

Anyway, thoughts? Comments? Just looking for input here? If I'm going about it all wrong just tell me!

Thanks.

http://i65.tinypic.com/15p0eo8.jpg

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

how long would your laterals be if you ran mpl 13-16 over to the other mainlne

[Mac102004]

Looks like about 50ft or so. Could probably do that, now that you mention it.

[Super Sapper]

I would not use the mainline for that situation. I would use 3/16 and run 2 to 4 laterals picking up all of the taps and running into a header on the pump. I would also have more storage as you will overfill that barrel consistently.

[Mac102004]

The reason I don’t want to run 3/16” lines is that it’s not readily available in my area, I’d have to order it in, which I guess isn’t a huge problem. The trees aren’t breaking any records now in terms of sap flow. I think the best day I ever had they might have made 20 gallons of sap. So even if the sap flow increased by 200% it still wouldn’t be a problem.

So, you think I’d be better off ditching the mainline altogether and just running a few laterals to pick up the trees. I like that idea as well, smaller tubing is certainly cheaper than mainline.

[bmbmkr]

Order the 3/16 tubing and the cost you pay for shipping, and the labor you save will pay for itself very shortly.

Check out Decker007 post on 2-28-18 on this thread- http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?31325-Shurflo-set-pictures/page2

He's pulling 24 in HG on 175 taps with an $80 pump. I was only pulling 4 in Hg on my 3/4 mainline Monday afternoon.

For gravity you want around 30 taps per lateral. I'm not sure if it's different using vacuum.

[mol1jb]

I think there is a good argument for 3/16 size line. But you can have equally good success with shurflo on a mainline vs tubing manifold.

For me the best reason for 3/16 on a shorter flat with a pump is having the lines perfectly pitched is not a factor. Mainline and 5/16 need to be pitched perfectly to have good results and on flat runs that is harder to do. 3/16 tubing fills completely with sap and thus perfect pitch is not needed.

Your pump choice is good.

[DrTimPerkins]

There is no slope to speak of, the whole thing is pretty level just going by eye.


I would not use the mainline for that situation. I would use 3/16 and...

3/16" tubing is NOT appropriate for level ground due to the higher level of friction in such applications. The trees have to push the sap out through the line on flat ground. If you have a big mouthful of water and want to push it out, would you prefer to do it through a regular straw or a coffee stirrer? That restriction in line size ends up creating backpressure, reducing sap flow.

Stick to your plan of 3/4" mainline, use 5/16" tubing for laterals and drops, and pay a lot of attention to the level. You still want it running downhill as much as you can get.

[Super Sapper]

3/16" tubing is NOT appropriate for level ground due to the higher level of friction in such applications. Stick to your plan of 3/4" mainline, use 5/16" tubing for laterals and drops, and pay a lot of attention to the level. You still want it running downhill.

I would agree if it was on gravity alone but with a shurflo pump it will work better than the 5/16 in a flat area. With the 5/16 you have to very careful of any dips as that will greatly reduce the vacuum beyond it.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

You guys are crazy, you do not want 3/16" on flat ground under any circumstance. Sorry but that is bad advice.

[Super Sapper]

You guys are crazy, you do not want 3/16" on flat ground under any circumstance. Sorry but that is bad advice.

And your experience is? I have run 400 to 500 foot runs on flat ground with 20 to 25 taps and lose about 1 to 2 inches of vacuum at the last tap. This is with the lines not sloped at all. I have seen at the end of my mainline with the 5/16 going up to the vac gauge having a dip and filled with sap increase several inches in reading by straightening out the tubing so that there is nothing pooled in it.
I will not say 3/16 is the best in every situation but it does have its benefits. An area where you have good slope and a tight system with a vac pump and releaser the conventional setup would be the most profitable system. Not every situation is like that though. You need to know what is best for you. If you want the most profitable setup then conventional is the most tried and true system but if you can't run a vacuum pump and releaser or it is too small or too close to neighbors or you just don't have the time or energy to make sure everything is just right and you just want something better than buckets a shurflo and 3/16 may be the best bet. It would be like if you wanted an economical car for going to work or if you wanted to buy a car to have fun with. The Prius would be the best for an economical car but the Hellcat would be a better choice if it was for fun.
I do not want this to seem like I disagree with Dr. Perkins, he is the best resource there is for running a profitable system but there is a segment here that have day jobs and just want to improve what they have. Everyone has to choose what is best for them.

[DrTimPerkins]

You can think of sap running in a line as a piece of rubbery string. Put it in 5/16" tubing on a slope and pull on the low end of the string -- it'll pull along pretty easily. As you reduce the slope of the line, it'll get progressively harder to pull the rubber string through the line. That is due to friction. Now take that same string, and put it in a much smaller piece of tubing. You haven't changed the plastic string at all. On a slope, it'll move down when you pull on it. But as you reduce the slope, it'll get harder and harder to pull -- far more than in the bigger tubing.

Same thing with sap in a line. Friction in the smaller tube will eventually slow down the flow. Yes...it'll keep moving, and sap will keep running -- but not very well.

The reason why 3/16" works so well on a slope is related. Sap (water) is very cohesive...it sticks together like that rubber string (which is why water drops form...water sticks to water) in the example above. So when a "string" of sap runs downhill, the "pull" of gravity on the sap (string) is far higher than the friction keeping it back. Because of the cohesiveness, the "pull" gets transferred back along the sap (string). That "pull" due to gravity creates a vacuum in the line...the further up the line, the higher the vacuum. But if you remove that pull (vacuum caused by the drop in elevation), then frictional forces get higher and higher until they are bigger than the pull, creating backpressure. Can you overcome this? Sure....temporarily. Just load up the lines with lots of taps -- you will get vacuum for sure. But it doesn't work as long as it would on a slope. It'll only work until the pressure in the tree stops pushing sap out, at which time backpressure forces will build and sap flow will stop. But you're probably overloading the lines so that you're restricting peak sap flow.

I know of at least four different research studies at four different research outfits that say the same thing....3/16" tubing works great on slopes, but it is not recommended for low/no slope applications due to backpressure from friction. Again, it comes back to that regular straw vs a coffee stirrer straw. Pretty easy to suck water through one....more difficult with the other . Both can work...just one is not as efficient as the other.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the "pull" (vacuum generated by gravity on a slope) and the "pull" (generated by a pump) are additive. One is caused by the weight of the sap pulling downward, the other is essentially pulling on the end of that sap "string" with a vacuum. They work together.

Realistically, do it whatever way makes sense for you. However the recommendation is to avoid using 3/16" on low/no slope since there are options that will produce better results. Will it work? Probably to some degree. Is it the best way in terms of yield? Definitely not.

[Mac102004]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the help.

I picked up some 12.5ga wire yesterday and another roll of 5/16 tubing. I will stick with my original plan but just run the single mainline and see how that goes. I have some 3/4" pipe here already so I can use that, just need some more fittings and such. Anyway, thanks!