Cleaning 3/16ths lines after the season

[TheMapleNews]

Our friend Art Kreuger in Shrewsbury, Vt. spent a lot of time this summer experimenting with the best ways to clean his 3/16ths tubing. For you 3/16ths folks, keeping lines clean is very important to get the same production in years two and three and beyond as you did in year one.

Here's the video of Art sharing his thoughts on the matter:

https://www.themaplenews.com/video/on-the-scene-vermont-sugarmaker-art-krueger-talks-about-cleaning-3-16ths-lines/63/

[maple flats]

Great video, thanks Peter. I will watch it a few times, and take notes as I do.

[a.clarke]

Agreed! Thanks for posting it here.

I will definitely be using the pool shock ( calcium hypochlorite) rather than regular bleach for my tubing sanitizer after this season.

[phil-t]

Thank you. I have learned a lot about 3/16 tubing in the past year. Changing my ways, now, and still learning. Eventhough my maple thing is a small hobby, I still want to do things the best way possible and make the best syrup possible.

[buckeye gold]

Hmmm something to think about. I used food grade Hydrogen peroxide last year after season. Dr. Tim, if you view this thread, what do you think of this method? I was also wondering if we should flush lines just before tapping with a solution like this?

what are all the other 3/16th users doing.

[wnybassman]

I have never heard of those wash bottles, and have already ordered a couple.

[maple flats]

I ordered 3, 2 to use, one as a spare.

[johnallin]

I've been using this sprayer to clean my 3/16 lines. Adjusted just right - it shoots at stream about 1-2 feet and the nozzle fits up tight into the 3/16 drop. A few pumps and it will send solution right on down the line. I use a diluted IPA solution - just like they do in Canada - my lines sparkle. ;)


https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-32-oz-All-Purpose-Wide-Mouth-Sprayer-FG32HD3-21/205050147

[maple flats]

It is illegal to use alcohol in the US, Canada is allowed to use it.

[lyford]

JohnAllin,
How many seasons have you been using this method, and have you noticed the drop off in sap production after year 1 that many report with 3/16ths.

[buckeye gold]

On similar note...does anyone have a way of fixing those little nicks from squirrel bites that barely leak? I just hate cutting a line off and putting in a coupler for a little tiny nick. Are there any food grade sealers you could spray on or paint on?

[johnallin]

JohnAllin,
How many seasons have you been using this method, and have you noticed the drop off in sap production after year 1 that many report with 3/16ths.

Two seasons now. It’s difficult to chart a drop off in sap, as last year was a record- for us anyway- with sap collection. Was it the year? or the Canadian IPA Technique?
The acceptance of IPA in the States is a pen stroke away...and a grey area for sure.

[SeanD]

Wait. This is turning things upside for me. I thought the research on cleaning lines concluded that nothing is better than doing nothing. A 30-minute soak in 400 ppm bleach returns drops and spouts to their original, year 1 production?

[minehart gap]

I recently learned that IPA is considered a pesticide.

My rational tells me that is why it does so well at reducing bacteria, it actually may kill some bacteria.

Another thought on this, just because IPA is considered illegal to use for food production, and it is a pesticide, wouldn't a different already approved pesticide do about the same thing?

In PA, my sanatarian is telling me that I must sanatize my lines. Most of the non-organic sanatizers are pesticide. I'm going to try, partly because I have to but I'm going to hope for the best.

[maple flats]

Research shows that doing nothing is practiced by some, but it is hardly the best way. While cleanliness of the the drops, including taps and tees are very important, the lateral much less so and the mains have almost no bearing.
I attended Dr Tim Perkins' seminar yesterday on tubing sanitation. I will not even try to state all of the research findings but cleaning the drops is very important. It did not show that cleaning a drop brought it back to year 1 results however. A new tap/drop and tee did bring it back. Then the next best was a new CV/on a used drop. With that production falls in yr 2 and 3 but that was shown to be the most profitable. Then in year 4, a new drop/tap and tee. In their testing, the year they use a new drop and tee they do not use CV, just a new plain tap. The CV''s were used in yrs 2 & 3.
Soon his test results may be up on the UVM website. There is a lot more info when that goes up.
His presentation in regards to sanitation focused on profits (the added sap vs the cost to do it.)
The cleaning that Art Kreuger does in his video did not say it will bring the drop back to new, he is testing to see how well it does. He has not yet gone thru a season using that method.
Art, however is one of the early ones who has used the 3/16 method, he may have more years experience using it than anyone else except maybe Tim Wilmot, who pioneered the idea.
In 3/16 even more than with 5/16 sanitation has proven to be critical. Year 1 is real good, 2 loses production and 3 even more. A 3 yr rotation for taps, drops and tees is indicated. Years 2 and 3 need to be sanitized to get good results.

[minehart gap]

Dave, I attended that seminar as well. Wasn't nearly all of the data presented with regards to 5/16" tubing and Dr Tim said more research is needed on 3/16" tubing but that they were not the same in regards to the cleaning aspect?

[DrTimPerkins]

Traveling so reply will be brief.

IPA is illegal in US. It falls under pesticide laws and is thus regulated by the EPA (and not, as might think, the USDA). Trying to read the laws and interpret them is difficult, however we have confirmation that IPA is illegal. If you use it you risk having your syrup declared contaminated with an illegal pesticide and seized. You would have to prove it was safe (better have good lawyers and deep pockets). Being “almost approved” is like being “almost pregnant.”

We understand sanitation in 5/16” tubing systems very well and there are several good references for that. Replacing drop lines is best for great yields, but too costly to do each year, so a 3-yr rotation is generally recommended, with new spouts each year. In terms of net profit achieved, 10+ yrs of research at UVM and Cornell show that using new CVs each year or bleach cleaning (with a long contact time, 5-10 min minimum, followed by rinsing or letting first flow of sap run on ground) gives the best result. Unfortunately normal bleach attracts squirrels, so we studied and suggest the use of calcium- weed bleach (no guarantees you won’t have squirrel issues, but hopefully less). New spouts alone provide about 1/4-1/3 the benefit of a CV. Although there is far less research, silver spouts over a 3-yr cycle seem to provide about 1/2+ the benefit of a CV (in net profit terms). Sucking sanitizer through lines under vacuum doesn’t provide enough contact time to be effective.

3/16” systems are different. Besides the sanitation issues, they also appear to suffer from progressive clogging problems. Thus we think flushing with sanitizer will be required to maintain good performance over several years in addition to normal sanitation practices. More research is needed and is planned for 2019 by both UVM and Cornell.

As I said, I am traveling and will be unable to reply to additional comments or questions for about a week.

[johnallin]

Traveling so reply will be brief.

IPA is illegal in US. It falls under pesticide laws and is thus regulated by the EPA (and not, as might think, the USDA). If you use it you risk having your syrup declared contaminated with an illegal pesticide and seized. You would have to prove it was safe (better have good lawyers and deep pockets).


Not to be contrary, and with all due respect, but how is Canadian Syrup allowed to be sold in the States?
Is it certified that no IPA was used in the process of making it? Again with respect to Dr Tim, it is puzzling to me. After all, it’s approved to be used as a topical antiseptic and sanitizer on cuts and abrasions on the human body. And who knows more about syrup production than our neighbors up North?

[DrTimPerkins]

Not to be contrary, and with all due respect, but how is Canadian Syrup allowed to be sold in the States?
Is it certified that no IPA was used in the process of making it? ?

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.

We also use bandaids on our cuts. Doesn’t mean we want them in our syrup.

You may argue about it all you like, but using IPA in the US is currently illegal. Give it a try and find out how far any of those arguments get you with the EPA. Best of luck. If you are that confident about it, call the Ohio Dept of Ag and Ohio Dept of Health and argue with them. I bet you will lose.

[wnybassman]

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.


I am not sure that is a great analogy.

If the US is concerned about anything harmful from IPA being in the end product, but that same something harmful may end up in the Canadian end product, why is their end product allowed here in the states?

I guess if we have certain standards to live by, why do we import stuff that doesn't meet those same standards? Wouldn't that designate a warning label?

I am not really arguing the point, just putting it in different words. I just rinse with plain water anyway :D

[johnallin]

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.

We also use bandaids on our cuts. Doesn’t mean we want them in our syrup.

You may argue about it all you like, but using IPA in the US is currently illegal. Give it a try and find out how far any of those arguments get you with the EPA. Best of luck. If you are that confident about it, call the Ohio Dept of Ag and Ohio Dept of Health and argue with them. I bet you will lose.

I'd prefer not to argue - my question was- how is syrup, made in another country, that could have been produced with equipment sanitized with IPA, allowed to be sold the States, when syrup produced domestically can be confiscated?

It goes no further than that...neither of us will fix it; it's the law, but it's certainly worthy of discussion - there's no need to argue at all.

For what it's worth.... the Germans drive on the same side of the road (right) as we do in the States and you're correct band aids don't belong in syrup.

[buckeye gold]

I think perhaps the thread needs to return to the original topic and not digress into an argument over legalities. I think that the question of why Canadian syrup passes for sale in the US is a valid question. Is it tested for residuals? But that maybe should be another thread. Is it possible there are some personal issues involved here?

I know this may get me in trouble questioning a Mod, but I feel it needed said. Let's all get along and be helpful.

I have a lot of experience with the EPA, FDA and Dept of Ag (both US and OH). Illegal is illegal and there are no exceptions or considerations, you will get hammered. The processes to register products take years of testing and proving and then someone has to be willing to foot the bill and sponsor the label. If the profit potential is not there it will not happen. I held INAD (investigational New Animal Drug) permits for years. I know of cases where people went to jail for misuse. I think this is part of Dr. Tim's point. Let's all move on with what we can do to clean our lines legally. The other questions can move to another thread.

[johnallin]

Well said Buckeye. Now back to our regular programing......

[n8hutch]

I guess if we have certain standards to live by, why do we import stuff that doesn't meet those same standards? Wouldn't that designate a warning label? :D[/QUOTE]

This should be in another thread but I cant help myself, this is the question and the root of all of our problems in this great country we live in. Most not all other countries that we trade with are not required and or responsible enough to operate with the same rules and regulations weather it concerns the health of the people doing the work or our planet, nor the health of the end user of said products. And that is why we cannot compete for manufacturing.

[DrTimPerkins]

If the US is concerned about anything harmful from IPA being in the end product, but that same something harmful may end up in the Canadian end product, why is their end product allowed here in the states?

I doubt the EPA is concerned. The issue is that nobody has spent the time or money to register the product so it can be used. I’m not saying it’s harmful. I’m saying it is currently considered an unregistered pesticide.

[minehart gap]

Dr. Tim with IPA being the desired sanatizer by some, would a different (but registered) pesticide produce the same result?

I should clarify, I believe that my sanatarian is telling me that I must clean and sanatize my lines every year. I use white vinegar to clean and (I haven't done this yet) I will run sanatizer in my lines before tapping. Will this give me a beneficial result?

[RiverSap]

I have a very small operation here in Missouri (USA). I have 40 or so trees I tap with 5/16th tubing. I boil the taps and drop lines in plain water and reuse each year. I have been tapping for 7 years. I did notice last year that my production was way down. I also had one of my prize producing trees that was in the prime of its life suddenly die this past summer. I plan on boiling the taps and drops again this year. What I am seeing here is that possibly I should replace the taps and drop lines. If I have another poor production year I just may replace like is suggested here. Imagine that learning from the experts.

[maple flats]

Boiling SS taps works somewhat well, plastic not so much. The micro-organisms penetrate the tubing wall. Boiling does kill on the surface and help remove some of the debris, but it will not kill in the tubing wall. Also, various approved cleaning agents do not kill what penetrated the tubing wall. It does help keep the tubing micro organisms a little in check.
The most important part is to usa a new tap every year if they are not SS, second comes the drop line and tee, those should be changed every 3 or 4 years (3 is best), the lateral line should just be flushed after the season, then let dry.

[Super Sapper]

Has there been any studies on using quantinary ammonia or paracedic acid? They are common sanitizers in food, we hate them at the treatment plant due to they are extremely effective and don't break down easily.

[SeanD]

The most important part is to usa a new tap every year if they are not SS, second comes the drop line and tee, those should be changed every 3 or 4 years (3 is best), the lateral line should just be flushed after the season, then let dry.

This is the practice I have been using, but what is in the video is very different. Art shares that he is trying out these new practices based on information he got from Steve Childs at Cornell - that a bleach cleaning resulted in drops being "just as good as brand new drops." (Right around the 4:00 mark) That's what got my attention first. Then in the video Art gives his (drops - spouts and all) a soak in a PVC tube.

I'm a small operation and I take all of my lines down every year - so squirrel damage is not as big an issue. If this ends up being true, it could save me some time, money, and waste.

[maple flats]

Yes, but Art is using calcium hypochlorite, not sodium hypochlorite.

[maple flats]

Has there been any studies on using quantinary ammonia or paracedic acid? They are common sanitizers in food, we hate them at the treatment plant due to they are extremely effective and don't break down easily.
I believe one of the test profiles in Dr Tim's presentation was for paracedic acid. He will likely chime in when he gets a chance. He will be traveling all week.

[n8hutch]

This is the practice I have been using, but what is in the video is very different. Art shares that he is trying out these new practices based on information he got from Steve Childs at Cornell - that a bleach cleaning resulted in drops being "just as good as brand new drops." (Right around the 4:00 mark) That's what got my attention first. Then in the video Art gives his (drops - spouts and all) a soak in a PVC tube.

I'm a small operation and I take all of my lines down every year - so squirrel damage is not as big an issue. If this ends up being true, it could save me some time, money, and waste.

Are you using 3/16 tubing?

[SeanD]

Are you using 3/16 tubing?

I use both - although last year, I switched out all my drops to 5/16". I haven't worked out cost labor, but I'm wondering if it would be beneficial to cut my drops at the T each year, leaving the T in the lateral then giving the drop and spout a soak. The following year just replace the T. Replacing a T is cheaper than a CV and I'm still doing the same number of tree visits. If there is the added bonus of returning the drops to new or like new condition maybe it is worth it. I'll be curious to find out what Art's results are this year.

[wnybassman]

I use both - although last year, I switched out all my drops to 5/16".

That is what I am considering doing for the 2020 season. How do you felt it worked out for you?

[johnallin]

I'm wondering if it would be beneficial to cut my drops at the T each year, leaving the T in the lateral then giving the drop and spout a soak. The following year just replace the T. Replacing a T is cheaper than a CV and I'm still doing the same number of tree visits. If there is the added bonus of returning the drops to new or like new condition maybe it is worth it. .

Sean, I did just that this year. After 3 years I replaced my 3/16" drops with 5/16" and added new zapback spouts. Hoping for 3 years on the zapbacks and the same on the 5/16 drops.

Replacing the 3/16" T each year makes tons of sense, as many were partially plugged with a build up of googe and the odd wood chip. I see the T as the biggest issue with the 3/16 system, and believe that using the right spout and cleaning drops, off season, is win-win. My 3/16" laterals are all clean as a whistle - I think it's the drops, spouts and T's that are the Achilles heel in the 3/16 system.

[SeanD]

That is what I am considering doing for the 2020 season. How do you felt it worked out for you?

Last year was a tough year for me to judge anything. We had multiple days in the 60s and 70s in February that pretty much killed production in some spots. Then in March, we had a couple of bad ice and wind storms that caused all kinds of damage in the woods. I had added vac in an area and replaced a ton of drops in other spots, so I was really hoping for a big year. It didn't work out.

Production aside, I do like having one size tap and drop to deal with. It wasn't the end of the world to be going back and forth from 3/16" to 5/16", but more than once I did leave the house with the wrong bag - or I made too many of one size drop and not enough of another. The other benefit is I could use check valves. I use the clear CV2s and for the 3/16" I had just been using traditional spouts. They didn't have 3/16" check valves when I got started with it.

[SeanD]

Sean, I did just that this year. After 3 years I replaced my 3/16" drops with 5/16" and added new zapback spouts. Hoping for 3 years on the zapbacks and the same on the 5/16 drops.

Replacing the 3/16" T each year makes tons of sense, as many were partially plugged with a build up of googe and the odd wood chip. I see the T as the biggest issue with the 3/16 system, and believe that using the right spout and cleaning drops, off season, is win-win. My 3/16" laterals are all clean as a whistle - I think it's the drops, spouts and T's that are the Achilles heel in the 3/16 system.

How do you keep your 3/16" laterals clean? Do you use a spray or pumped in cleaner? I rinse lines with water when I can, but the 3/16" lines are too far away. I thought about rinsing them after they are down, but I've found that sections of line that don't dry out all the way end up with gunk. Maybe it would be different with bleach.

[maple flats]

According to Dr. Tim Perkins' presentation, water does get rid of the bulk of gunk but does nothing to kill micro organisms. For that the best is bleach, but to avoid squirrel damage, use calcium hypochlorite, not sodium hypochlorite (household bleach). The cdifference is the first one only leave a lime stain which does not attract squirrels, the second one leave salt, which they love.

[WhistlePig]

I found this product for treating wells; http://www.betterwaterind.com/wellsafe.html. I have not tried it. It has instructions on obtaining a specific ppm. If you look in the downloads section of the website, it has SDS that confirms it is calcium hypochlorite. I guess it sounds & feels slightly better because its for a well rather than a pool?

[springhillsmaple]

I just put up about 35,000 feet of 3/16 tubing. In he past, we always cleaned 5/16 with just water, but after doing some research, I want to try using calcium hypochlorite. I've got an idea about how to do it, and I'm curious if anybody thinks it will or won't work, or whether it'll be a total pain. Most of the lines are long with a substantial drop and 20-30 taps. My plan is to have someone walk across the tops of the lines with buckets of solution. They pull the last spout, put it in the bucket, and let gravity suck it down until the line is full of solution. A person at the bottom then caps it off. With the last tap still siphoning from the bucket at the top, each tap is pulled, allowed to fill, then plugged. Then the top spout is plugged and we move on. Solution will sit in lines and drops overnight and be drained the next day. Comments? Thanks

[SeanD]

I did that with mechanical vacuum last year. Not sure I'm going to do it again. At places the line is overhead and it was a pain getting a bucket up to some taps. In your case, I'm not sure you would be able to maintain a natural vacuum as you go down the line. I think maybe each time a little air is introduced you would eventually lose your siphon.

I like the squirt bottle idea from the video in terms of ease of use, but I'm not sure how to keep the drop filled with solution for 30+ minutes.

I have one area with 100 taps with brand new drops that I think I'm going to experiment on. I think I'll use your bucket method or the squirt bottle to fill the lateral with one of the bleach solutions for 30 min then cut out the drops and soak them (spouts and all) in a big PVC tube in the same solution. Next year, they'll go out with new tees.

As I was cutting in the new tees this year, I was thinking this would kinda suck to do every year. 3/16" tees take a little more finesse than the 5/16", but if the results are as good as mentioned in the video, it might be worth it. I'd like to see a follow-up to this article to see what Art noticed after doing this cleaning.

[ZenBoiler]

Here is my plan for backflushing/cleaning my system: We have a brand new tubing system this year. 150 taps. 1000 foot long, 3/4" mainline, 3/16" laterals. 100 feet vertical from the sugar shack to the top of the mainline. In order to backflush and clean the system, I plan on buying a positive displacement pump that can pump water at least 150 feet high, and connect that to the bottom of the mainline. I will pull all the taps and start pumping water up the mainline. I will walk up the mainline and start plugging spouts that have water squirting out of them. This will ensure water makes it to the top most taps. Once I have squirted some water out all the taps, then I will shut off the pump and go unplug all the taps to let the system drain. Think this will work?

Pete
Brown's Sugar Orchard, Bradford NH
2015-2017 2x3 flat pan evaporator and 75 buckets with no clue
2018 - running lines for the first time! 1000 foot gravity mainline and 100 taps still have no clue

[maple flats]

That will fill the lines but it only rinses them does little to clean them. Still better than nothing.

[SeanD]

Curious if there were noticeable results on sap flow from the OP. I'm going to cut the drops in a section of 100 new taps and soak them in calcium hypochlorite. Where can I get calcium hypochlorite? Pool supply stores?

[Sugar Bear]

Using IPA is allowed under Canadian law. It is not allowed under US law. By your logic, anyone driving a BMW should be allowed to drive on the left side of the road in the US.

We also use bandaids on our cuts. Doesn’t mean we want them in our syrup.

You may argue about it all you like, but using IPA in the US is currently illegal. Give it a try and find out how far any of those arguments get you with the EPA. Best of luck. If you are that confident about it, call the Ohio Dept of Ag and Ohio Dept of Health and argue with them. I bet you will lose.

Untill I read this I was taking everything you said as the Word Of The Maple God!

[wlatrout]

A couple of pictures of the unit I made up to put the sanitizer in the drops. I switched to 5/16 drops and zap back Spouts. A piece of 5/16 tubing fits over the sprayer tube and also over the spout.http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19959&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19960&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19961&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19962&stc=1

[SeanD]

I like that and may use it next year. I had very good luck with the squirt bottles Art used for his. I have two half-Liter bottles and I was amazed at how far they went. I got close to 50 drops out of a Liter. For the older drops that will stay on for another year, I filled the drop like he did and stuffed the end onto the plastic plug of the T so the drop stayed filled. I let those sit for a day (but some are getting more soak time). I unplugged and drained them when I took the lines down. I usually let the first day of a run go to ground, so I'll do that to flush them next year.

This was way easier than the water flushes I was doing with a hose or with a bucket on the vacuum lines. If it ends up improving yield, all the better.

[wlatrout]

A couple of pictures of the unit I made up to put the sanitizer in the drops. I switched to 5/16 drops and zap back Spouts. A piece of 5/16 tubing fits over the sprayer tube and also over the spout.http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19959&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19960&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19961&stc=1http://mapletrader.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=19962&stc=1 Thought I would repost this for anyone looking for an easy way to flush your lines.

[SeanD]

I was just out doing some end-of-season sanitizing and thought of updating this thread, too. My experiment of cutting drops last year and sanitizing them in a tub seems to have worked well - or at least well enough to repeat and expand the strategy. Year 2 of this particular gravity setup kept up with a new tubing vacuum setup I had - not gallon for gallon, but proportionally throughout the season. That is it had big runs when the vac area did and both lines dried up at the same time. The gravity setup has around 100 taps and the vac has around 75. The gravity line seems to have repeated its performance compared to last year, too but I think comparing year to year is tricky because we had so many warm spells this year compared to the repeated deep freezes we had last year. I suppose the fact that it made it through the warm spells as long as the new tubing did says a lot.

I'll suck some sanitizer into the laterals of my gravity lines and then I'm going to cut the drops from the vac lines and sanitize those like I did the gravity line. I tried to use the squirt bottle to get some sanitizer into the laterals, but that had mixed results. It would sometimes travel a few drops and then drain out or sometimes it wouldn't travel at all. I'll try it before cutting off the drops on another line to see if that helps. Otherwise, I might try that spray pump idea to push it in from the top end and force it all the way down. Getting 3/16" lines to drain is kind of a pain.

[eustis22]

So at long last I scored some calcium hypochlorite for cleaning my lines and would like to know what the mix ratio should be for 5 gallons of water? Hot, warm, or cold water?

[SeanD]

It only takes a small amount and that's what I like about it.

The OP called for 1/8 tsp per Liter, so that's roughly 1/8 tsp per quart or just under a 1/2 tsp per gallon. As you increase the gallons, the gap between Liters and gallons widens a bit more. There are just about 19 L in 5 gallons, so that's nineteen 1/8 tsp - or 2 3/8 tsp.

You just reminded me I still have to give my drops a soak!

[eustis22]

Thanks, Sean...so I fill the lines and let them sit a couple days? Does water temp matter at the beginning?

[SeanD]

I forgot that part of the question. I just fill and mix with room temp or cool water. It would dissolve faster in warm/hot water, but it's best to keep the vapors down. Contact time is not days, it's minutes. I did it for 30 minutes because I was busy with other stuff, but I think the minimum is 10 or 15 minutes off the top of my head. It was in the Maple Syrup Digest from last December. Either way, there is no harm leaving it in there longer. UV and time eventually break it down just like sodium hypochlorite (bleach).

My lines come down in the spring, so that's when I do it, but the article recommended the fall because the chance of regrowth ofter sanitizing is minimized because of the cool/cold temps. My drops get sanitized now (behind schedule) and I store them in the sugarhouse for the off season.

Remember to let the first run flush your lines next spring.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I load my 3/16 systems with calcium hypochlorite at the end of the season and let it sit for a week, drain and then flush with water. I load from the top of the system using a shurflo sap pump which allows me also load the drops. I can load 750 taps on 8 systems in half a day. I have also used DSD Star .225 spouts on 3/16 for 5 years and have never had a plugged tee. However, I do get minute wood chips in the shurflo screens. So I suspect the smaller drill size produces small chips? My yields and grades have increased.21403

[VTNewbie]

I loaded my lines with calcium hypochlorite by pumping from the bottom up and pulling taps as the bleach came out. My shurflo 4008 pumped up about 80 feet to the top. Is there any harm to leaving the lines filled until fall and then flush with water? I know the calcium hypochlorite will beak down, but will the resulting lime deter bacteria/mold better then flushed lines?

[DrTimPerkins]

Is there any harm to leaving the lines filled until fall and then flush with water?

No harm.


I know the calcium hypochlorite will beak down, but will the resulting lime deter bacteria/mold better then flushed lines?

Once it breaks down there is no residual sanitizer action. It will not deter microbial growth after that.

[SeanD]

I loaded my lines with calcium hypochlorite by pumping from the bottom up and pulling taps as the bleach came out. My shurflo 4008 pumped up about 80 feet to the top. Is there any harm to leaving the lines filled until fall and then flush with water? I know the calcium hypochlorite will beak down, but will the resulting lime deter bacteria/mold better then flushed lines?

I didn't think the little Shurflo could push the liquid to the top of my lines. I thought I needed a bigger pump. Do you have a mainline to fill or do all your lines come into a manifold? Is the 80' the length or height of the lines you reached?

[VTNewbie]

I have a small manifold that hooks to my 3/16 laterals with 3/16 drops. The laterals range from 700 to 900 feet long and the top is about 80 feet above my storage tank/pump. By the time I'm at the top of my line the flow is going much slower but still making it. I was worried it wouldn't pump that high but was gladly surprised it worked. Lines are very tight with no apparent leaks.

Since there seems to be no benefit, I'll probably just drain the lines in a week or so of the calcium hypochlorite and be finished until next spring. I was hoping since lime is basic it would deter bacteria vs. a more neutral ph.

[Gallinipper]

I noticed in this thread that some mentioned that they changed their drops to 5/16 and zapback spouts on their 3/16 laterals. Does this take away from the natural vacuum being created by the 3/16 line if you don't run it for the drops as well? Do they make a 3/16 zapback spout?

I also watched Art Krueger's video and he mentioned that changing the spouts on 3/16 yearly and using CV did not show advantages like it did in 5/16. I have been using CDL 3/16 maxflow spouts for several years and I have changed them yearly. It sounds like I might have been wasting my time doing so. Thoughts?

I have been following the research and practices on 3/16 sanitation for a few years now. At first it was recommended to flush the lines at minimum with water. I personally found that created algae in the lines which caused additional issue to deal with. I then tried food grade hydrogen peroxide but didn't see much benefit. Finally I ran across some information that suggested their was no benefit from sanitation at all and to pull the taps and let them drain and walk off. I have taken that approach for a couple of years and I have not seen much of a change in volume from previous years. Occasionally, I have a clogged T that I have to change but not often. I always let the first run flush the lines before collecting. I would love to put into practice good sanitation methods that are beneficial to production in 3/16 lines. Sounds like Calcium Hypochlorite might be the answer I was looking for. I would definitely like to hear thoughts on those that used it last year. I am always open to suggestions and new ideas. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[bill m]

The reason for the 5/16 drops on 3/16 laterals is because during the freeze - thaw cycle and the temperature drops the tree develops a negative pressure. That causes the tree to pull sap back into the tree. The shuttling of sap back and forth in the drop, spout and tap hole contributes to bacteria growth. This pulling of the sap back in the tree is more evident with 3/16 drops.

[WINDY Knoll]

Hi guys, I've read through the whole 7 pages and wondering about using what breweries and the wine industry use for cleaning and sanitation.
3-stage is Precarbonate wash, followed by citric acid, to neutralize the base, with sulphur to sanitize, and finally a straight water rinse.
Based off HD/LD polyethylene research, there is little to no reactivity to the plastic composition with these ingredients.
The prementioned industries main concern within the food industry is bleach (and other forms) are not allowed, from my understanding.

[minehart gap]

I have been cleaning my 3/16" tubing with white vinegar then star-san sanitizer for 3 years. Vinegar after pulling the taps then sanitizer before tapping the next season.

I have tried calcium hypochlorite for the first time today and Wow. There was a lot of gunk coming out. I'm not sure if it is impressing because of how well it works and how clean the laterals are or depressing because of how much I have been missing. I used a 1 gallon pump up sprayer with warm water and about 1/2 tsp chlorine, left it set until I got the next lateral filled then drained and flushed with warm water. I was surprised at how much gunk was in my lateral and drops and how clean they look now.

[gbeneke]

I used bright colored electrical tape for a quick repair that I can find easily. Place it on tightly do several tight wraps and keep it in your pocket at all times. If that doesn't work a coupler but that's another place for sawdust and gunk to block the 3/16 line.

[minehart gap]

gbeneke, how well does the electrical tape work with the vacuum? Does it seal well in the cold? I have typically had a difficult time with electrical tape sticking when it is cold but if it is in a pocket inside your coat, it would be warmer and stick better. Good idea. Thanks for sharing.

[Super Sapper]

If you use electrical tape do not use cheap off brand stuff. I use the Scotch 33 I think and have no problems in the cold. I have tried the cheaper stuff and it does not work well in the cold.

[thomashansen871]

If you use electrical tape do not use cheap off brand stuff. I use the Scotch 33 I think and have no problems in the cold. I have tried the cheaper stuff and it does not work well in the cold.

Super 33+ is the only tape to use, ever, i used to install car electronics, as well as work on heavy equipment, and i have always loved that tape. the cheaper tapes will release their adhesives in colder weather, most of the time, it doesn't even have to be freezing.

[johnallin]

Scotch 33 is good tape. Just took down our Christmas lights, reindeer, trees etc. I use it to seal off extension cord connections - think Clark Griswald here - and it's nearly impossible to find the end of the tape to unwrap, let alone pull it off the plug. You get what you pay for.

[minehart gap]

I have come up with a few questions concerning 5/16" drops used with 3/16" laterals. The first, I understand that the use of 5/16" tubing for drops is to reduce the amount of sap re-entering the tree in periods of negative pressure but is that simply to be greedy with the sap or to reduce bacteria that the sap has come in contact with once it enters the tubing? If the bacteria concept is the reason, wouldn't the use of 5/16" drops reduce sap re-entering the tree but instead have moist air enter the tap hole? And which (sap or moist air) would transfer bacteria in greater quantity? Also, does the 5/16" drops reduce the plugging of the tees when used with 3/16" laterals? I would think that it would be no different.