What would you do? Upgrade or RO?

[Sly41985]

I've been thinking of either upgrading 2x6 pans, buying 2x8, or purchasing hobby RO. Last year we had just over 200 taps, which on the leader wse, made for long boil. We have potential to up our tap count. Just wondering what people's thoughts were on the matter. few things to know first. Evaporator most likely will be wood. We've got 130 acres of hardwoods. Only electricity we have is a generator(run a Honda 2000)I've seen claims online of a 2x6 that's airtight, blower, and high output pans getting double what my wse gets. Let me know what you guys think!!! Thanks.

[flhr10]

I have (had) a Leader WSE 2x6. Boiled on it for 5 seasons. My boil rate was a consistent 30 gallons per hour. Running between 350-400 taps each year on bags. This past summer I traded my WSE pans on a new set. I got the Revolution syrup pan from Leader and the Max Flue from Leader. If the claims are correct, my boil rate should be 40-45 gph. I'll see how it goes. Will be adding a hood and pre-heater after this upcoming season. Also I won't be tapping any trees this year. I'll be buying my sap from a friend running tubing.

[Potters3]

Just my opinion adding a R/O is the best money spent to go faster. When you take 2% sap and make it even 4% you just cut your boil time in half. But that would require a bigger generator or a gas powered R/O. I am on my second R/O and still think they where worth ever penny spent. I work full time so there is no way I would have enough time to boil or cut wood to boil that long. We have 2600 taps now

2%/86 = 43 evap to get a gal of syrup
4%/86= 21.5, I know rough math but close

[Sugarmaker]

Sly,
My 2 cents:
If you like to boil then upgrade to a 3 x 8. That will keep you going for several years with out the R.O. as you expand. Boil rate will be improved from where you are now and you get a new rig. (2 x 8 is not much of a jump) A 3 x 8 would handle 600+ taps. When your ready to double your tap count you have the right size evaporator, add the R.O. at that point.
Regards,
Chris

[maple flats]

Having gone thru this type question, I'll answer from my perspective. At 200 or even up to 6-800 I would stay with the 2x6 and get a 250 GPH RO. Ray Gingerich makes them with a gas engine. PM me if you need his contact info.
Then add a hood on the flue pan and a pre-heater. With that RO and a pre-heater you will be able to process 800 taps in the same or less time as what it took for 200. Another thing to improve the hourly evaporation rate is to add AUF and then even AOF (air under and air over fire). To boil with no other changes other than a 250 gph RO just run it from 2% to 8% in one pass and then run a second time from 8% to 12%. If you started at 2% it takes 42 gal to boil away to make one gal of syrup (43 gal sap minus 42 gal water is 1 gal syrup). If you boil 8% it takes it only takes 10.875 gal to make one of syrup and if you run it up to 12% it only takes 7.25 gal to make one of syrup. The RO is your best investment.
On your WSE if you get 25 GPH evaporation it takes you over 1.7 hrs to get 1 gal of syrup. If you boil the 25 gph with 8% concentrate it takes you .425 hrs to make one and boiling 12% it takes you .2125 hrs to make one gal of syrup. These are all still at the 25 gph. Do some homemade improvements and it can get even better.
If buying a new 2x8 it would cost more that a 250 GPH RO from Ray.
Others may also make gas powered RO's too. Just think, even at 8%, you can get 4x the syrup from the same amount of wood fuel.

[minehart gap]

I am also on the RO bandwagon and would suggest one. But keep in mind that you will not just need a RO. Even the gas powered RO's require a heated room or take it home every chance that it may freeze, also a way to heat permeate for cleaning the RO and 1 or 2 (or more) additional tanks as well as minor other items.

[wnybassman]

I faced this decision last year (minus the electricity issue) I have exactly 200 taps and was doing 14+ hour boils on my little 18x60 raised flue evaporator. I decided on the RO route midway through the season and never had a boil over 2 1/2 hours after that.

[Russell Lampron]

I recommend going with the RO. With my 2x6 and RO I easily handle 725 taps on vacuum. I have my evaporator hopped up enough so that when I have 1200 gallons of sap concentrated to 14% I can boil it all in in less than 3 hours. Before the RO and evaporator mods there way too many 12 hour plus boiling sessions which made it hard to go to work the next day.

[VT_K9]

We were where you are now about 4 years ago. We added a sap puller to 275 taps without changing anything. We went from 20-24 gallons of syrup to 35 gallons of syrup. We bought a CDL Hobby 250 RO. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. We eventually expanded to about 400 taps. Two years ago we planned to expand. We hoped to get 800 taps in place last year, still using our 2x6 WSE and the 250 Hobby RO. Unfortunately we made a lot of headway on the infrastructure, but not getting the lines up and taps in, too many projects. So this year we are building a new sugarhouse, setting up a new evaporator, and adding the 400-600 taps to get started this year.

In our research we found a little more width will contribute far more than a little more length in evaporator size. Most everybody will quickly recommend the addition or upgrade of an RO before a new evaporator. You will definitely get a bigger bang for your buck with the RO. We could not upgrade the evaporator without a new sugarhouse because there was no room unless we went to a 3x6 (yes three by six). I would recommend the RO first. With the size of the property you will probably do the evaporator upgrade too in a few years. Get the RO. The recommendation for one of Ray's gas units is consistent with what I have seen over the years.

Good luck,

Mike

[minehart gap]

Another concern that you may come into would be days with little sap flow. You will not make enough permeate to clean the RO in these situations. Probably the best bet would be to go with a 125 RO (or around that size) and still have long boils on big flow days, but less time than you boil without the RO and eventually get a smokey lake or A&A sheet metal evaporator for bigger evaporation rate. Oh wait, that's my dream.

[Sugarmaker]

Based on most of the recommendations above first you need to run a 220 service line to your sugarhouse. You will never regret it. and to run the equipment you need it.
Have a great season!
Regards,
Chris

[wiam]

Not enough permeate should not be a concern. If early season just let the sap sit. If late season or the sap will turn into a block then ro it and rinse with what permeate you made or run a warm water wash with no soap and rinse. If you did not run much sap through it the membranes aren’t that “dirty”!

[VT_K9]

When we initially decided to go to a RO we looked at the 125 and 250 sized units. We also looked at converting a 125 to a 250 should we go to a 125 and need to upgrade. The upgrade route was not worth it for us. We had 300 or so taps when we added a sap puller. Then we expanded our number of taps. Never once were we in a position of really wanting to run sap through the RO and not having enough permeate. The last two years early in the season and on colder days we gathered for 2 days before boiling. It gave us a day off for other projects around the sugarhouse and in the woods. It also gave a chance to see what it was like running 700-800 gallons of sap through the system. With 750 gallons of sap we would fire the RO up at about 6:45a. We finished with clean up, an initial filtering (we use a filter press later), and syrup (about 13 gallons) of syrup packed in 5 gallon containers by 2:45p. We have done this multiple times and it works well with the RO cleaning. For the CDL Hobby unit we are removing 50% of the permeate (H20). Our Sap Sugar content is normally about 1.75-2.25. Lets use 2% for easy math. We would get about 350 gallons per day. That would create 175 gallons concentrate (4% sap) and 175 gallons of permeate (H20). The next run through would be about 88 gallons of concentrate (8% sap) and 260 gallons of permeate (H20). Just enough to run the cleaning cycle of a 250 gph RO. You could push your concentrate a little higher and in our case most of our sap is closer to 1.75% for the majority of the year. I would say if you are getting at least 400 gallons of sap go for the 250.

Mike

[Sly41985]

Hey guys thank you so much for the replies I really do appreciate it! A lot of info to take in which is great. Ive talked to a few people and most have said the same thing about an RO. They say it's the best thing they've ever purchased. Hardest part about purchasing a RO is we do not have a place to keep it from freezing. Plus not sure if our Honda 3000 would be able to run it. Another question is do you have to heat up the permeate in order to wash the RO?

Flhr10-I would def be interested to know how well your new pans do. Do you still have the cast iron door or will you upgrade to airtight?
Maple flats-Thanks for telling me about Ray I actually looked him up online and found him. That gas powered unit is def something I would be interested so thanks again!

Thanks again everyone! Hope everyone has a good holiday!

[maple flats]

Yes, you heat the permeate to was the RO. Back when I got my RO, I had to build an RO closet. It is 5.5' long, 30" wide at one end and 40" wide at the other. On the wide end I have a 2' deep bench, then the door into the closet is on an angle. The RO is on casters, and it only has 3" to spare to fit thru the door. The ceiling is at 6' h. The room is 2x4 flat ways framed and has 3" rigid foam insulation, but only 2" on the plywood door. Initially I heated it with 1 incandescent 100W bulb, then I changed to 2 and later on 3. It really only needed 2 but 3 was in case 1 blew it still had the 2 necessary. A few years later I put an 8000 BTU wall propane furnace, direct vent in on a t-stat and I also put a 1500 watt electric heater in as back up. The propane runs off a bulk tank and the electric back up runs off my solar system battery bank. The propane has never failed.
For heating the permeate for washing, the first year I used 3 turkey fryers with 4-5 gal SS pots. It worked but was not convenient. The next year I put in a small propane tankless heater and it heated 1.3 gpm OK. Big improvement. Then 2 years later I bought a 3.2 gpm tankless heater, much better. I now heat the permeate with that and run it directly into the RO wash tank. Soon after the wash cycle starts the was water is cold again because the membranes were full of cold sap and then cold permeate. As soon as the water goes cold, I run the permeate portion of the RO discharge back thru the tankless heater and back into the wash tank. Once the wash water is again at 112F I shut that off and finish the cycle. It does not need more heat, in fact from there it slowly gains temperature just from going thru the pump.
Basically as you can see, nothing needs to be fancy, and you could even just use 1 turkey fryer but it would be slow. My first tankless propane water heater was the smallest one The Sportsman's Guide sold, the 3.2 GPM one was I think 2 steps bigger.

[SeanD]

I take an even less fancy approach to heating my wash water. I fill the wash tank with permeate and drop a bucket heater in. It gets cold permeate to 115 deg in about 20 min. or so. If it's warmer out, it's faster. It doesn't have a thermostat on it, so I drop in a thermometer with an alarm on it.

Once I start cycling the wash water through, the temp almost immediately drops to about 90 deg. because the membrane itself is cold from the permeate flush. So, I leave the bucker heater on during the backwash/wash and it slowly creeps back up above 100 deg., but not usually much more than that if I remember right. I also flush it longer than recommended times.

[Woody77]

I was faced with this two years ago and due to funds and facility I chose the evaporator first. it has ben a God sent.
I bought a smokey lake 2×6 raised flue without a pre heater I get a solid 50 gal an hr . So my advice is look at your situation and do what best suits it . I'm now starting the process of getting the ro but it's not a rush and I can do it right.
Thanks to all others for the good info it rilly helps put in perspective what all is involved in an ro.

[TimJ]

We had a Leader 2x6 and about 400 taps. We boil 45-50 gph roughly.
We're adding more taps and last year got an RO. What a difference in boiling time...
No more 12 hour boils for us!

I highly recommend an RO and keeping the 2x6, or maybe get a more efficient 2x6.
You will spend some time managing the RO, but overall it is a huge labor and time saver and it pays for itself.

Your money is much better spent on a small RO than a larger evaporator in my opinion

You will need
- heated space
- electric power
- additional tank(s)
- diligence to do the cleaning/RO process

If you can't do/won't do all those things then go with a larger or more efficient rig

[S.S.S]

Without a doubt a R.O

[Sly41985]

Sorry i havent responded to all of your posts, ive been a little busy trying to get everything together for maple season as well as trying to finish up some painting/staining/trim at the house. Theres never enough time!!! Anyways ive talked with one of our local dealers and hopefully tomorrow im going to pick up the leader micRO! Pretty excited about it! So again id like to thank everyone for their messages! I do appreciate it!!