Sucking sap uphill

[Windy Acres]

We have a hedge that is about 350 feet away from the sugar house, and is about 10 feet lower than the sugar house, I'm pondering running the 3 runs up to the sugar house, do you think a shurflo would do this, or would I need a guzzler? I'd like to have the pump on the wall in the RO room, so guests can have a look, as all of our sap needs to be hauled in, what do you guys think?

[maple flats]

Using 3/16 I do essentially that, but with a BB4.

[johnallin]

I too would like to pull sap up-hill.....Dumb question here...

Guessing a BB4 is a pump, but what type and make is it?

I want to rid my operation of the WX10 I use to pump sap from a collection tank on a creek crossing, up to the sugar house. A run of about 110 feet and 20 foot rise.
The aluminum pump housing and impeller have become raw with white powder deposits (oxidation). It's salty tasting and can't be helping my syrup.

I've got 7 runs of 3/16 that I could extend up to the shack if I could pull the sap up there. It sounds like your BB4 is doing just that.
I could then locate a stainless collection tank at the sugar house which would be much simpler to keep clean. Thanks for any replies.

[Ultimatetreehugger]

I would want a guzzler for that. I run both and the shurflo will pull up hill but will get surging sap on the inlet hurting vacuum.

[Windy Acres]

Thanks for the replies, looks like there will be a guzzler sucking sap to the sugar house this spring

[Windy Acres]

What would you guys say is the max length for a run of 3/16 with a guzzler pulling on it?

[maple flats]

I too would like to pull sap up-hill.....Dumb question here...

Guessing a BB4 is a pump, but what type and make is it?

I've got 7 runs of 3/16 that I could extend up to the shack if I could pull the sap up there. It sounds like your BB4 is doing just that.
.
The only dumb question is when you don't know something and you do not ask.
A BB4 is a real old piston pump, made by Babson Bros. They later became Surge. My BB4 on my system pulls 26-27". If it drops to 25" I walk the woods looking for the leak(s). That was only just 225 taps last year, for 2019 I plan to get to about 300 with it, all but 7 or 8 of the new taps will be Reds. All of those added taps will be pulling from below the mainline using 3/16. Last year I had about 75 pulling from below the mains. The year before that I had just 26 pulling from below, as an experiment. They performed so well I added 49 more last year (on 2 lines), pulling from about 7-8' below the main, then climbing to a height of 15' (about 11' above the main), crossed a driveway and then down to the mainline.

[n8hutch]

I guess that pulling the sap up to your sugar house is effective enough as far as getting the sap where you want it. My only concern with that technique would be the sap yield. Would you not get much more sap if you used sap Ladders and positive flow if you want your pump in the sugarhouse?

[Windy Acres]

That's the kindof information I'd like to see, the big bonus for us would be not having to gather it with the tractor, it's always full of drifted snow, and it's the wettest field on th he farm, I'd like to think with the pump running till it froze our yields would be better than just gravity

[maple flats]

I might, but collecting from areas that can't be gotten without vacuum is bonus enough. I'm sure I'd get more if I used a mainline and had 3-5 taps on each 5/16 lateral and then run sap ladders but to me the cost to do that does not make it look better to me. The simplicity of having 25 or so taps on a lateral and then running that to a mainline with just 1 saddle is a real bonus. Besides the only ones I have that way all go thru 1 or 2 sap ladders already are those 49 taps across the driveway, and to do those with conventional methods I'd need about 350' of mainline, 10-12 saddles and then a 13-14' sap ladder, 2 ball valves and a 1 x 1 x 3/4 Y in SS, all of my mainline fittings are SS barbed fittings. My way, I get 49 taps at ?% of possible for 1.5 rolls of 3/16 and 2 saddles (plus the taps and Tees which would be there either way).

[n8hutch]

I definitely Get that for your setup Dave, but what John Allin is talking about I would just be afraid that I was giving up a fair amount of sap.

For instance I lift some 5/16 laterals up to my main line ones 5' one is 8' , the 5' ladder is 2 - 3/16, and the 8' is 3-3/16 , the sap races up the 3/16 laterals in 1/2 long columns and I have 22" of vac at the end of my 5/16 lateral. I would just be concerned that if you had 3/16 lines running down hill with 40' of drop and then you turned them after the last tap and ran them up hill to a pump and manifold that there would be significant line friction even with a pump, on my 3/16 lines with vac on them the sap is still moving relatively slow and they run right down to the main and the main has 24" on it.

[johnallin]

Thanks for the input Nate. I can eleiminate about 20’ of the secondary rise if I don’t go to the creek crossing. That would give me 20’ drop and the just about level to the shack. Would that be better? Would 5/16 be a better choice for the final 100’ or so after the 3/16?

[maple flats]

I fully agree, but my choice is to get what I can at the lowest per tap cost. I'm sure I lose some potential but when I watch the sap flowing down that last drop after climbing and crossing the driveway it is moving along at a pace not much slower than what my lines with 25 taps and 30'+ drop at my lease get while feeding into a mainline that has 19" vacuum on it. This year I'm doing that woods differently. Rather than use the vacuum tank as such, I'm adding a releaser and hopefully 4-5 more inches of vacuum. That should increase the sap yield. On the other hand, with my cancer issue last year I tapped far fewer taps and got 119 gal off 225 taps, That's still .53 gal/tap and in the 225 tap count I had 75 taps pulling sap up to the mainline. I think that was remarkable. That was my best yield/tap ever, my previous best was .45 gal/tap.

[n8hutch]

John , If you can run a level mainline, or even 1% out to your taps and maintain 20' of drop that would be your best bet, I would just run a 1" main out there and pick up your 3/16 lines with that. With as little as 20" vac on that main line you would get all your going to get at your elevation vas wise out of your 3/16 lines. You definitely want to run 3/16 all the way to the main. I understand people don't want to run main lines and I get it they are alot of work, but to me they are cheaper to run long term because your not replacing them as often. On 100 taps , if you gain 10% that's probably 4-5 gallons of syrup, that will pay year after year.

You can still pull the taps below your mainline up to the main and you get what you get out of that as a bonus if you will ,but your getting the max out of the stuff above the main no question.

[n8hutch]

Dave I am not arguing against what you have done, I'm sure it was the best option for you and cost per tap definitely comes into the equation. But what John was talking about doing, sucking sap up hill through 7, 3/16 lines up 20' at a distance of 110' is not the same as what you are doing, I am just giving him some ideas from a different point of view. Everybody should do what's best for them.

[johnallin]

In my case the main line would only be about 100-110'. Presently all of the 3/16 lines terminate at the same spot. Is there any advantage to a shorter main line vs. using longer 3/16 lines? Most of my 3/16 runs are less than 300' with 20-25 taps ea. They ran fine into the collection barrel last year.

I'm trying to eliminate two things this year-
1) pushing sap up to the shack with the Honda WX10 pump. I will replace with a vac pump to eliminate sap contact with the aluminum pump housing
2) the vertical 165 gal tank which was a pain to get to and to keep clean. I will replace with a SS tank right at the sugar house.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread and hope this is also helpful to Windy Acres question regarding pulling sap uphill.

[n8hutch]

The Advantage of a mainline is you can run it at a 1% slope or less even depending on the size., 3/16 tubing was never designed to be run at such shallow/nearly level slopes and it has been proven that it is counter productive because of friction loss in the line. I'm going on my 5th season of using some 3/16 I dont use it exclusively for the reason that it's not made for areas where you dont have sufficient drop.

My very first year on 3/16 I tried it on some 3% ground and it ran great, the second year I got almost half the yield of the first, it seems that it's a bigger issue the second season because your system is not as clean as the first.

So on a flat run with 3/16 you risk loss of vacuum due to line friction that increases as your tubing gets older.

If you run a mainline with vacuum on it you know at every point that your 3/16 tubing enters that 100+/- foot main that there is 20"hg or more depending upon your pump, pulling on that 3/16 tubing adding to the natural vacuum it has already created, with long flat runs of 3/16 you could potentially be losing vacuum do to line friction.

Hopefully I explained that well and its helpful. I'm not always real good with the words .at least that's what the Wife tells me.

[Windy Acres]

I agree with you n8hutch, I wish I could do a traditional mainline, there is just no way to put one in without having to suck half of the hedge uphill anyway, there will only be about 100 taps from that hedge, but I'm hoping to bring another hedge that I already currently tap to our side of the road through a culvert also

[johnallin]

Will a Guzzler pump pull vac on a 1" mainline? If so, it looks like it would make for a simple setup and dump right into the tank.
Windy Acres, is this what you are planning on?

[Windy Acres]

Johnallin, no I cant do a mainline with this setup, I'll be doing individual 3/16 runs, pulling the sap uphill

[n8hutch]

To Answer your question a guzzler pump will do what you want to do. You should have more than enough vacuum, I have 500 taps on A 12vt Guzzler 500 , with 1000' of 1" mainline, 500 is too many Taps but it works good as long as I can stay on top of leaks I have 24" of vacuum.

[johnallin]

Thanks Nate.

[Windy Acres]

191871918819189well we bought a guzzler to bring all 4 hedge rows right to the sugar house, all that is left to do is hook up the temperature controller and run 1 more line of 3/16--

[johnallin]

Windy Acres, that's a very clean looking installation. I've not seen one with a manifold like that, impressive. Nice job!

[Windy Acres]

Thank you! I got the idea from a good friend, so I cant take the credit for the idea lol

[johnallin]

You’re very welcome. Regardless where the idea came from - you did a great job.

[Windy Acres]

The beginning of our first run, and we couldn't be happier with this little guy! It is pulling everything right to the sugar house and saving us 5 stops to gather, while keeping 27 inches of vacuum on the lines

[Marc Duclos]

May I ask what is being used to connect the pvc to the base of your pump? I first used a guzzler with the 3/4 female threaded inlet and out let until I blew it up with ice. I had a 911 and ordered a new base that came with out threaded inlet and outlet. I went with the larger base 1-1/4 inlet and outlet with out threaded ends. Marc

[Windy Acres]

i ordered ours with the 1 1/4 threaded base, so i just used a maleXslip adapter and used unions so i can pull it apart easily if need be

[Marc Duclos]

Thank you for your input.