Zig - Zagging 3/16 tubing down the hill..

[smokeyamber]

So I have a nice steep slope with trees that I can either run a very long line across the face of the hill or I could do a zig zag pattern on sections of the hill. Is there any issue with running tubing in a zig zag pattern ? The tubing will be still dropping enough in elevation , just not sure on the how the back and forth would affect flow.

Thanks for any information, new to the tubing world, but the gravity 3/16 sounds too good to be true ! :lol:

[maple flats]

Zig zagging is the most common method. Just as long as you have the total drop and especially a decent drop after the lowest tap you will do fine. Just try to keep the total number of taps at 25-30 for best results. That being said, early tests found that 37 taps might be a maximum. Too few is nog as good either, because the natural vacuum is generated by the sap in the line and with fewer than about 12-15 it can take too long to get the vacuum working.

[CTSap4Maple]

Check out Tim Wilmot’s research on this, which shows that a long zig zag line achieves better vacuum and flow than a branched line.

[phil-t]

I have 12 large maples (two taps/tree) on a hillside in my yard. Total drop from uppermost tree to my collection point is ~30ft. with 10ft. of drop to that collection point from my last tree. Works great. Vacuum guage at the top shows ~21". This is a great way for me collect sap from trees in my yard/lawn, a yard I don't want to get all tracked up with machines in the spring. I start at the top and zig-zag to each tree/tap,n about 500 ft. of tubing, end to end.

[DrTimPerkins]

It isn't a black/white thing. Some amount of zig-zags in 3/16" or 5/16" tubing is fine (in fact it's normal), as long as you don't:

1. Create a lot of long flat stretches (opposite of 3/16" tubing running downhill creating vacuum, 3/16" tubing on flat ground creates backpressure, 5/16" tubing is less susceptible to this, but won't create natural vacuum nearly as well)

2. Go back uphill on those stretches (which will definitely create backpressure).

This isn't to say that either of those will be terrible...it'll still work...but your results will not be quite as good. The zigs and zags should generally run downhill. The normal recommendations for 5/16" and 3/16" tubing are the same -- "tight, straight, and downhill."

[smokeyamber]

Thanks for all the feeback, I think I will dive in this season and try 3/16 !

[canaanmaple]

as opposed to zig-zagging, how long can a drop line be to a tee in 3/16 the lateral line? I see 3' is recommended minimum, is there a maximum? thanks

[steve J]

Smokey you have a good steep hill that's sort of a bowl side. Your welcome to go up and check mine out if you like. But if you get your main line in place so it starts at your farthest end and ends where you plan to have collection tank closest to your shack You than can run several lines down to your main line. Also You might check with Paul the town road foremen. He just built a house at corner of Meade and Notch road and I believe he has some of those caged poly tanks that he may be selling for a good price. I bet he bring it up and drop it right in place for you. I am trying to remember if you tap trees past your shack toward end of driveway? but if you do you could probably run a second small main line back to shack you would have to work with the hill some so that main line was pitched right.

[smokeyamber]

Hey Steve, running into a mainline is one scenario I was considering, I think the lateral approach is what I will go with. Main reason is DEER. They use the hill as a highway and if I put lines down it I can predict alot of repairs in my future. So laterals will go across and then down into storage, hopefully the down part can be high enough to allow deer to go under it. I still need to figure out the storage and transfer across the driveway part... I have a 210gallon tank for the storage, that might pump to the shack if needed.

Definitely gearing up for the season !





Smokey you have a good steep hill that's sort of a bowl side. Your welcome to go up and check mine out if you like. But if you get your main line in place so it starts at your farthest end and ends where you plan to have collection tank closest to your shack You than can run several lines down to your main line. Also You might check with Paul the town road foremen. He just built a house at corner of Meade and Notch road and I believe he has some of those caged poly tanks that he may be selling for a good price. I bet he bring it up and drop it right in place for you. I am trying to remember if you tap trees past your shack toward end of driveway? but if you do you could probably run a second small main line back to shack you would have to work with the hill some so that main line was pitched right.

[steve J]

I did not worry about the deer and I have never had a line broken by one. But limbs or fallen trees have caused me some issues particularly this fall with the heavy wet snow. A full grown deer is approx. 36" at top of back I think they tend to just duck the lines.

[canaanmaple]

they can duck a 1' fence since their shoulders are only connected to their skeleton by muscle tissue! if they were being chased they would jump it


I did not worry about the deer and I have never had a line broken by one. But limbs or fallen trees have caused me some issues particularly this fall with the heavy wet snow. A full grown deer is approx. 36" at top of back I think they tend to just duck the lines.

[steve J]

I think if I understand what your thinking that you intend to run you lines horizontal to the hillside you will be losing the advantage of the steep of your hill and the lines will not produce well at all?

[minehart gap]

Although having a portion of the lateral running at no or slight grade is not optimal, I always thought that total elevation change is what created the vacuum. If there is a good reason to have some of the tubing running level or even uphill, I think go for it. Again, not optimal, but any vacuum gain is an advantage.

[DrTimPerkins]

The weight of the "hanging" column of liquid (which is generally the total elevation change) is what creates the force generating the vacuum in 3/16" line. But that is affected/counteracted by frictional forces in the tubing. If the tubing goes downhill well, the frictional forces are low. If the tubing is flat, friction is high. At some point, if the tubing is installed with too little slope (or totally flat), the frictional force can overcome the gravitational force and cause back-pressure. So it really is an equation.

Total vacuum (or pressure) = vacuum generated by elevational change - pressure generated by friction

The vacuum level can be different along the length of the tube. You might have great vacuum high up on the hill, moderate vacuum lower down, and then no vacuum (or even pressure) if you run the line across a long stretch at the bottom of the hill. Sap will still run through the tubing, but it will have to overcome the pressure at the bottom of the hill to move through the tubing (or as Matt said...it is not optimal). Same sort of thing can happen if your lines have too many taps on them.

Another way to think about it is as a bunch of bowling balls. If you have a nice steep drop, the ball will go down and build up a lot of momentum (force). If the pins are at the bottom of the hill, it hits them really hard. Take that same pins and move them a few hundred yards across the field. The bowling ball may not even roll far enough to hit them. If you toss enough bowling balls down, they'll pile up and eventually get pushed across to the pins. Depending where the pins (the exit of the sap line to the tank or mainline), and how far the balls have to run downhill will determine the force (vacuum) that is generated. It's best to have the pins (tank, mainline exit) at the very bottom of the hill, but while it is not optimal to have a flat area, some is probably OK, but too much is clearly not OK.

The easiest alternative when you hit that flat area....switch to 5/16" tubing. Less resistance.

[buckeye gold]

I think one thing that needs to be considered in every scenario is, "what is your goal for the application?". For some it is to max out sap production and get every drop possible. For another it may simply be a matter of convenience or economy. So your goal dictates how optimum your install needs to be. If you need more sap you better keep it straight and down hill, as Dr. Tim says, if you simply want to make life easier then a few cross lines and low slope will work. In your scenario Dr. Tim you need to ask, "do I want the bowling balls down the hill as fast and soon as possible with as many as possible in that time or am I just happy that all I need eventually get there.

For instance, I do not need to max out my sap production. I do like getting more sap with less taps, but primarily I want to reduce labor. After developing some heart disease I struggled to manually gather from buckets daily. I simply want to get my sap to a point I can recover it with as little effort as possible. So I am happy if it just runs down hill to my tank. I went with 3/16th tubing because: 1.) It would be efficient and most likely I could reduce taps. 2.) it was cheaper 3.) it would be an easier install and repair 4.) I like engaging new tech. I get more sap than I can process in my hobby unit as it is and I have no plans to expand.

[DrTimPerkins]

I agree, although I think the majority of producers (at least those we hear from) do care about how much sap they get. If your goals are simply to make life a little easier, then absolutely do it any way you want (the same does NOT apply to food safety issues though). However one really should know what "best and accepted practice" is, what the results will be if you do it that way, and how deviations from that approach can affect the results. We tend to focus on high yield, but our real philosophy is to maximize net profit for those producers who are trying to make a money from sugaring. If you aren't interested in making money, then obviously the approach can be quite different.

[buckeye gold]

Oh I do agree with you Dr. Tim, I am a firm believer in knowing "best practices" and most are after max yield under best practices. I just wanted to throw out there the thought that not everyone requires max output and there is a little wiggle room under those circumstances.

I absolutely agree 1000% that any method that is easier that also compromises food safety or sanitation is out of bounds. I suppose that there are sanitation concerns with any tubing that does not drain well. Even though I am not concerned with max natural vacuum, I work hard at keeping every foot of my lines going down hill.