Tapping below lateral line

[pls009]

Seems like I read something about this in the Maple News awhile ago. Due to a hump in the woods, I have an area where my lateral line has to be taller than desired to maintain slope. I would practically need a step stool to tap these. Has anyone tapped below the lateral and did it work? Thanks in advance for your knowledge and experience!

[spud]

Many people tap below lateral lines. PMRC has written an article on this. You should have no problem. I would suggest you use Check Valve spouts though. Without them your production will suffer.

Spud

[PerryFamily]

No need for check valves. Keep your woods tight and vacuum always on....

[Haynes Forest Products]

Pls009 You really don't give us a lot of info to go on. Do you have Vacuum?? Do you have slope?? Are you using 3/16 or 5/16??

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

No need for check valves. Keep your woods tight and vacuum always on....
I would have to disagree with this statement. .....there will be numerous times in a season when sap and gases will go backwards no matter how tight your woods are and regardless of whether or not your vacuum is run continuously.
Neil

[maple flats]

I agree with Neil Walling, use either check valves or Zap Bac taps, especially when tapping below the lateral. I use one or the other at all times myself, above or below the lateral. I even had 49 taps last year that were all below the mainline, comprised of one 3/16 with 25 taps and one 3/16 with 24 taps. They also ran over a driveway 14' in the air by simply climbing one side, crossing the driveway and then going down to the mainline with no sap ladder arrangement. The line just went up, across and back down to a mainline which had 26-27" vacuum on it.

[PerryFamily]

Most around me that tap below the lateral do not use check valves. Actually no one that I know of uses them. The ones that I know of tap a considerable amount of their trees below due to over tapping for so many years that it’s hard to find good wood. They are 20k plus In size. I guess if it works for them why wouldn’t it work for someone else? Makes no difference to me, just stating what others around me use.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

Chances are operations that big have hired help doing some or all of the tapping. I would probably go the non -check valve route in those circumstances also for a few reasons. One of the main reasons sap goes backwards is at freeze up time. Different areas freeze at different times and some backwards movement of sap will occur in areas of the woods every time it freezes. Tapping below the lat works fine but I would only do it in a situation such as OP describes or where you can't find good white wood in tapping band.

[DrTimPerkins]

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Tapping%20Below%20Lateral%20-%20Maple%20Digest.pdf

If you leave the vacuum on continuously and your woods are always tight, then you don't need CV spouts. On the other hand, if your trees ever freeze during the season, you have occasional leaks/squirrels/power drops or you have a mechanical releaser, then CVs will help. This is true when tapping in the normal manner, but is especially the case when tapping below the lateral line.

There is NO question that tapping into stained wood will result in considerably lower yield. Far better, in areas with a lot of stain, to tap below the lateral AS LONG AS YOU HAVE GOOD VACUUM AND USE EXCELLENT SPOUT SANITATION PRACTICES.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I tap below the mainline in one section of my woods because of the grade is lower in that section. The end of my mainline is about as high and this old man can reach so I tap below it because Im not bringing a ladder into the woods. Now I have high vacuum and run my pump well past freeze up. If the tree can suck the ice out of the lines then that is fine with me.

[pls009]

Thanks for the replies everyone - What Haynes just described is my exact situation. I just wanted to ask because I thought that I had read that it will work but wanted to hear from people who have actually done it before trying it. Thanks! Paul



I tap below the mainline in one section of my woods because of the grade is lower in that section. The end of my mainline is about as high and this old man can reach so I tap below it because Im not bringing a ladder into the woods. Now I have high vacuum and run my pump well past freeze up. If the tree can suck the ice out of the lines then that is fine with me.

[metalhead62]

are you using 3/16 or 5/16 to tap below lat or does it matter

[maple flats]

All of my below the lateral line or below the mainline are in 3/16 laterals and as all of my others, the drop and tap is 5/16. Some are CV2 taps and others are Zap Bac Taps. When I first tried the Zap Bac taps I still owned a few hundred CV2 taps. I will likely use them up this year or next as I use some of both kinds. At this time my plan is to only buy Zap Bac from now on, unless another new tap draws my interest in the future.

[metalhead62]

hey maple my understanding with zap bac taps you could stay 3/16 even with the drop thus elimanating the need for two different size lines and the special tees correct? and pls sorry for the hyjacking of your thread

[spud]

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Tapping%20Below%20Lateral%20-%20Maple%20Digest.pdf

If you leave the vacuum on continuously and your woods are always tight, then you don't need CV spouts. On the other hand, if your trees ever freeze during the season, you have occasional leaks/squirrels/power drops or you have a mechanical releaser, then CVs will help. This is true when tapping in the normal manner, but is especially the case when tapping below the lateral line.

There is NO question that tapping into stained wood will result in considerably lower yield. Far better, in areas with a lot of stain, to tap below the lateral AS LONG AS YOU HAVE GOOD VACUUM AND USE EXCELLENT SPOUT SANITATION PRACTICES.


Am I reading the first sentence right? If you leave the vacuum on all the time and your system is tight you still should have CV spouts. Lateral lines are always full of sap during the season unless you have a leak. At night the lateral lines on your tight system are froze solid. When the sun comes up in the morning, the East side of my trees will run long before the lateral lines thaw out. If your tapping below the lateral line and your tree is running there is nowhere for the sap to go ( because your laterals are still froze ) then you have a problem. There would be only one place for the sap to go and thats back into the tap hole. You can keep your vacuum on 24/7 and have an electric releaser but still you will back flow.

Spud

[spud]

Most around me that tap below the lateral do not use check valves. Actually no one that I know of uses them. The ones that I know of tap a considerable amount of their trees below due to over tapping for so many years that it’s hard to find good wood. They are 20k plus In size. I guess if it works for them why wouldn’t it work for someone else? Makes no difference to me, just stating what others around me use.

Is it really working for them though? At the end of the season all that matters is how much money did you make per tap. In most cases the larger the operation the less GPT they will have. Had they used CV spouts it's possible their production numbers would be higher. I made a big mistake last season by not using CV spouts. I was trying to save a little money and my production was way down.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

hey maple my understanding with zap bac taps you could stay 3/16 even with the drop thus elimanating the need for two different size lines and the special tees correct? and pls sorry for the hyjacking of your thread

Unfortunately the growing issue with 3/16" tubing is not just sanitation related reductions in sap yield as tubing ages, but PLUGGING of the tees and unions. New spouts, CV spouts, or zap-bac spouts do nothing to combat this problem. The only proven solution thus far is replacement of drops every year or two, however other options (chemical sanitizer flushing and rinsing) are being investigated.

[DrTimPerkins]

Am I reading the first sentence right? If you leave the vacuum on all the time and your system is tight you still should have CV spouts.

Sorry for the confusion - I was being facetious. The first two sentences must be taken together - everybody has leaks at some point. Yes...CV spouts will help even if you do leave the vacuum on all the time, have tight woods, and use an electric releaser.

The benefit of any sanitation strategy depends upon a host of factors. As you do a better and better job with other things (such as those things listed above), there is less possible benefit to be gained by using CV spouts (or CV adapters), but in general, there is always a positive net benefit of using them UNLESS your yields are very low (due to other problems, like very poor vacuum with lots of leaks), however that caveat applies to ANY type of sanitation benefit.

For example, if your yield is down around 4 gal sap/tap, adding 25% (1 gal of sap) through improving sanitation only gets you 1 gal more sap or a $0.50 benefit (depending upon how you sell your syrup). When you subtract out the additional cost of a CV spout and the cost to install it, then it won't pay. Same with a new spout of any type, including a zap-bac. Even putting a new drop on there and doubling your yield will only gain you $2/tap income, but you have to subtract out the cost of a new drop (tee, tubing, spout), the labor to make it, install it, and remove/dispose of the old one. In that case, focusing on vacuum first might be better, then move on to sanitation (or do both simultaneously).

[maple flats]

hey maple my understanding with zap bac taps you could stay 3/16 even with the drop thus elimanating the need for two different size lines and the special tees correct? and pls sorry for the hyjacking of your thread
You could but I personally like the extra protection. A zap bac tap does reduce the bacteria significantly, but it is not reduced to zero.
The tees for 3/16 x 3/16 x 5/16 are likely the same price as a 3/16 on all 3 ports, thus your only extra cost is a roll of 5/16 which if you make your drops 36" you will get 166 drops from a roll, cut some at 35" and you get 167 or more.
Cut and assemble the drops at home, then just carry the 3/16 tool and the drops along with a roll or more of 3/16 When installing I carry ready made drops and the only ones I make in the bush are the end line drops. If you can't easily carry it all, use a sled like this http://www.glensoutdoors.com/otter-sport-small-sled.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw08XeBRC0ARIsAP_gaQAcRGsNib F5iZc6005UD8tG0fvyi7S2c3AgDv8Il2-zu6_3x7B6N6IaAumBEALw_wcB
They hold plenty and pull easily, even on dry ground, great in snow. Larger sizes work well too.
In my case, I have no 3/16 x 3/16 x 3/16 tees, just the combo tee for my 3/16 lines, but I do have 5/16 tees for areas where 3/16 is not the best option.

[metalhead62]

thanks for the reply's doc yea ive been reading a lot about the plugging issues even with just the shavings from the tapping process and maple yea could make drops at the house using hot water and take the 3/16s tool out in the woods but 3/16x5/16x3/16 were not available locally here last year couldve ordered them but to late by the time i started thinking of going that way anyway thanks for the thoughts