containers

[PATheron]

Question for you guys? I'ts looking like I will be ready to make syrup next spring and am wondering what kind of containers to buy. I'm hoping to make about 250 gals if its a decent year. I dont really want to persue the retail end real hard initially becouse of having to work and raise kids full time. My thaught was to sell 200 bulk and peddle 50 locally to start with and each year try to sell more locally. I can take care of the fifty but how do I contain the bulk to get the best price possable capitalizing on the different grades. I expect a good portion of the bulk to be pretty good syrup, not just commercial. Any advice appreciated. I also have some nice pictures of my setup but not sure how to post them. thanks Theron

[mountainvan]

If there's a buyer close to you, either for themselves or a large packer like bascoms, you may be able to get barrels from them. You don't have to but anything and your syrup is already sold. Check around you're area, you might get lucky.

[brookledge]

Well the size of your containers depends on your setup. How many gallons of syrup can you make a day? How are you setup for filtering and hot packing? Will you sell the bulk syrup shortly after making it?
Those are some of the questions I have.
If you are going to sell it shortly after you make it then you don't need to worry about hot packing it so you could have larger containers but if you do want to hot pack it then you need to have it all at 185-190 when you are canning it. So that would depend on you canner size. Another thing is if you go up or down on grades of syrup being able to fill the container.
It sounds like you will be about the same size as me. I have 715 taps and I average 265 gallons per year. I hot pack all my containers except for maybe the last keg of commercial. The reason I hot pack it is that some times I will keep some of the syrup for a year or two and I want it as good as when it was put in. For instance one year I may make alot of fancy and then the next year make very little so I like to always keep an inventory to take care of my needs. I put all my bulk syrup in kegs. They hold 15.5 gallons an are a good size for my needs. Most days I'm making 1 to 2 kegs per day so if the grade changes i'm able to still hot pack the kegs. I have a 16X24 that holds enough to heat it and then run it through my filter press and into another canner to insure that the temp. stays over 185 and then into a keg. Another reason I like kegs is because they don't rust and unlike plastic the grade won't change over time.
But if you are not concered with hot packing it you could get some drums or barrels Syrup barrel is 31.5 gallon or 55 gallon drum but then you have to remember you have to be able to move it. A keg will be around 200 pounds so while it will be heavy I'm still able to lift it. I don't like the metal 5 gallon cans because they rust after a year or so and plastic will allow the syrup to darken over time but once again if you sell it right away those are not issues.
Hope this helps
Keith

[PATheron]

mountainvan- Selling it like you said has been my initial plan. The guy I bought my equipment from is a very large producer and also a maplepro distributer. He told me that he would buy all the syrup I can make and would provide the containers. I just wasn't sure If I should hotpack it instead in different containers like brookledge was saying and hold it a while by different grades to see what the prices do throughout the year. Brookledge- I like your idea with the 15 gal kegs where do you get them? this is my setup guys. My two boys and I this summer built a 20 by 32 shed. It is very traditional looking but will be very modern in function. My evaperator is a 3 by ten new from maplepro. I also bought a 7 inch filter press and a propane canner. I have 3 milk bulk tanks in place that will hold 1800 gals. The shed is almost done. My goal is to have it done in two weeks when the maplepro equipment is sopposed to come so I can go directly to the woods and start running tubing. I bought enough tubing to install 800 taps properly for vacuum and am thinking about telling them to send 200 worth more to put on the neighbor. I know this is kind of aggresive for a 3by10 but i'm figuring on buying a ro and vacuum pump next year depending on money plus I like to torture myself. All my taps will run to my tanks gravity and the tanks will run to my evap gravity. I've tried to set it up so I wont have to touch any sap only boil and eat maple candy. This is kind of a long post but know you have a feel for what i'm doing. Any suggestions welcome.

[forester1]

Theron, The best way to post pictures if you have a lot is to set up a free account on a website such as photobucket and upload pictures to an album you create. Then just add the web address to your signature.

[PATheron]

Thanks for the info forester1. I've enjoyed looking at all of the pictures that you guys have posted but I am not that great with computers. When I get done with my shed I'll figure out how to do it so you guys can check things out if you want to. One thing I did do that I think may be pretty neat was to run cat 5 computer wire into my shed. I thought that it would be neat to be able to have a web cam aimed at my tanks so that I could see how the sap is running remotely, also my uncle would like to be able see in the sugar shed when we are making syrup. I'm not sure how expensive that would be but this winter I'll check it out if I get everything else done. I checked out your pictures forester and I really like your shed and woods. The property looks like it's very nice. If you dont mind me asking, is hard maple the predominent species or is there a pretty good mix? My woods is mostly hard maple and ash. There were some beech but they are all diseased in my area and I have removed them. I have also removed a lot of hophornbeam in faver of incoming maple saplings. I've tried to do a good job of thinning before installing the tubing system. Been working at it a few years using NASPM as a guide. Thanks Theron

[mountainvan]

With the bulk price paid by buyers to the producer, I don't think the price changes much from spring to fall. If the US supply goes down they just bring more down from Canada. They usually have a big enough surplus up north to keep the price of syrup from doing what happens with oil. If your planning on selling more yourself hotpack for latter in the year. If you want to just do bulk, get the barrels. I already have barrels for next year, but only for any grade c I make.

[PATheron]

mountainvan- Probobly my best bet is to just figure on selling to Patterson the bulk and use his barrels. I trust him and It will be the easiest for now. I do like the Idea of Hot packaging some to sell locally though by using those kegs brookledge was talking about. I'll keep the best stuff that way or just jug it as I go, have to think avout it. How do most of you guys do it? Do many split it up like I'm thinking or do most of you have good reatail markets developed and just bulk the commercial?

[forester1]

Theron, My woods is maybe 60% hard maple with the rest mixed, mostly beech, yellow birch, and hemlock. I am getting it logged starting up in the next two weeks so the percentage of hard maple will be increasing, but I don't plan to eliminate any species at this time. I don't really want a monoculture but I want to open up the sugar maple to get better growth and sunlight on the crowns.

[PATheron]

forester1- I know what you mean about not wanting a monoculture. Basically for some reason my woods were mostly ash and hard maple when I bought the place. There were some large beech but they are all unhealthy in our area. Ive mostly removed large half dead trees so they wouldnt be an issue once I put the line in. I have done some thinniing in a young stand of hard maple but they were so thick it needs doing and I'm even doing that pretty incramentally. It will be neat to see what the logging does to change your woods. A lot of our area has been select cut for so long you go In the woods and you wont see hardly any nice maple, ash, cherry. It will be mostly ironwood, yellow birch, hemlock, etc. I like all the trees but I guess our woods are just a product of what their previous owners felt was important to them. Theron

[markcasper]

Sounds like more of a "high grade" cut than a "select" cut. Lots and lots of forested land has been cut using the high grade, but many loggers have decieved unsuspecting landowners by not telling it like it is.

[PATheron]

Markcasper- Not sure what you mean by high grade cut, by select cutting I meant that in our area the only activity in the woods for years was the removal of valuable timber and nothing else. Seems like the result was everything else becoming dominent. Im no expert. How have the loggers decieved the landowners, Just not sure I know what you mean.

[markcasper]

"A lot of our area has been select cut for so long you go In the woods and you wont see hardly any nice maple, ash, cherry. It will be mostly ironwood, yellow birch, hemlock, etc."

"Not sure what you mean by high grade cut, by select cutting I meant that in our area the only activity in the woods for years was the removal of valuable timber and nothing else. Seems like the result was everything else becoming dominent. Im no expert. How have the loggers decieved the landowners."

Theron, What I qouted above from your previous posts is an example of "high-grading". In other words, the logger comes in and takes out all of the best timber and leaves the junk, aka knotty trees, hollow trees, lightning strike trees, diseased trees, I am sure you get the picture. Lets face it, there are a lot of woodland owners that have no idea what they have in their woods for timber, nor do they have an idea of the value either. I have a father and an uncle as an example. I have witnessed several loggers in my immediate area that have "door-knocked", offered a lump sum price which sounded good to the landowner and then they were free to roam the woods with their chainsaws and skidders. They spit out the word "select cut", which sounds good to unsuspecting landowners, only for them to return a few months later to see and feel utter destruction.

Basically after a high grade cut you get what you describe, that being low-quality and inferior trees. There aren't many good maples, b/c they were cut out. This should not be in sound forest management. A woodland owner should always be focused on leaving the best trees as crop trees, not having them all cut down when a logger knocks. The low quality trees should be the first to go, not the thing that remains. Alot of people do not care about the next generation, rather they jumped on the one chance quick cash.

The word "select cut" has been the most abused word in forest management in my opinion. That is why my families woodland is enrolled in the MFL program and there will be a certified forester hired to evaluate the trees, tally the totals and set and monitor the timber sale. And most importantly, keep the logger honest. I am no expert either, but I do know that selling timber without a foresters assitance is an accident waiting to happen. A good forester will make you money more than cost you money.

Notice I said "most loggers" and not "all loggers". There are good ones out there, its just a matter of researching and finding them. In recent years the dishonest ones have begun to diminish, especially as more people have become aware of things. Hope this helps in explaining things.

[mountainvan]

"select cutting" as you describe it has helped me. Many land owners in the Catskills will not have there trees cut by anyone because a few guys do high grade and leave a mess. That gets around an area quickly. This leaves me with many untouched acres of forest to tap, now and in the future. Sugaring can be an environmentally friendly way for a property owner to get something out of the forest they pay taxes for. For me it's a win win, for the honest loggers it's a lose.

[PATheron]

Markcasper- Thanks for the explaination, that was awesome. Ive been doing exactly what you said. Ive been removing all the junk and never cutting the nice. Im tapping trees that would make a logger cry. I dont care becouse I really enjoy making syrup and in the long run Ill make more money probobly. If I dont thats ok too. Mountainvan- Ive found a lot of people that feel exactly like you said, they are quite likely to let you tap becouse they dont want thier woods logged anyway becouse of seeing irrisponsable logging.

[markcasper]

Pa theron, We probably will not make any extra money from tapping the prime trees due to the degradation of the wood from tapping. But in my area, there simply are not many prime trees around anymore. I am not an advocate of NEVER cutting any good ones. Someday a time will come when the crop trees will become mature and have to be removed. But then one can go and pick one here and there and do that every 5 years or so. That is if you can do it yourself.

In my area the land taxes have become a real problem for many woodland owners that are not farmers. I recently had a person approach me and inquired about me buying sap from 500 taps. There property would receive a near 60% reduction in the property tax if the land was all tapped. They didn't bat an eye when I mentioned of tapping damage, they just want their yearly tax burden lifted and tapping is one of those solutions.

They still have the trees, I'd have syrup, they'd have syrup and their taxes would be much lower. What more could you ask for?

[PATheron]

Mark- Never thought about the tax savings for the prop owners. What I meant about tapping nice trees was on my property I dont care becouse Im a young guy 37 and Ive made syrup my whole life and probobly always will. If I tap on a neighbor I tell them first thing if they plan to log the value will be decreased by tapping. If they dont mind, and I do tap the woods, it gets the utmost respect. No small trees, tap low, very conservative tapping, etc. Thats a good point about the taxes. My property was taken out of clean and green, tax savings program, but once I sell syrup I can reenter it. That may be a good way to get taps in the future and a big benefit to the landowner. I have nothing against logging, I think it should be done but if a person chooses to use the resource for syrup thats just as lagitamit.

[Parker]

There are plenty of honest loggers that do a good job (at least around here),,dont forget that loggers are working for the landowner and if the landowner says "I want every penny I can get" then that is what they want,,,to my mind the job of a logger is to "Shift the growth potential of a site to better reflect the landowners objectives" I have done many improvement cuts that released crop trees and removed the poor quality and over mature stems,some stands I am now thinning a second time,,I have also done 200 acre moon scapes,,,I try to implement the landowners objectives,,,
I know for a fact that thinning your sugarbush properly makes one heck of a diffrance in sap production and proper management can put money in the landowners pocket,,improve the health of the stand,,improve the growth rate of the remaining timber,,and be asthticly pleaseing......are there loggers that take advantage of people,,sure,,are ther loggers that dont,,yes,,just like with any other trade,,,ask for some referances,,,,,,go look at some other jobs the logger has done,, be involved in the process....... and remember the logger has to be able to make a living while doing a timberstand improvement (not as much to be made when you are cutting just junk and painstakingly trying to make the woodlot look like a park)
my 2 cents

[PATheron]

Parker-My uncle is a logger and he does an excellent job as far as I can see. Ive gone into woods he has timbered where Im pretty sure he was told to get max doller and the woods looks fine when hes done. Theres just not the volume of large prime timber anymore but you can see that the woods was left in a state where there will be in the future. Im totally good with that. He told me that the junk should be removed at the same time but nobody wants to pay for that work. I totally understand, I wouldnt want to work for free. In my woods I can fine tune becouse Im doing it myself.