I know it's early :)

[netsplitter]

But, I am already excited for my second year. I went up through my mountainside yesterday and was trying to get an idea of how and what I would do this year. Late November early December depending on the weather, I am going to tap a few walnut trees again and make some syrup. I started to last year, but the sugar content was not good enough - at least I thought (.5%), but regardless this year, I will make some.

I have three large maples trees that are close to my house, the sun exposure is excellent, and they produced 95% of the same I boiled last year (around 75-80 gallons).

Up my mountainside, where gravity lines would work well due to the slope, the tree's there did quite poor. There are some monster maples up there, but I barely got anything out of them. Most of them I had two taps in, and I tried to strategically place the taps where the best sunlight exposure would be (but given they are on a mountainside, there isn't great sun exposure). I taped 15 trees up there and barely got anything. I keep wondering if I did something wrong (maybe I didn't put the tap high enough, or maybe I just really had an unlucky position on the tap, etc). I want to get more sap this year, and I have lost one of the maple trees near my house due to it splitting in half (it was in poor shape when we purchased our property), so now I want those trees to produce more than ever.

I am thinking about trying to run gravity lines from the very top of my mountainside to a much more manageable access spot. When I get off work, towards winter time, it is difficult to check those lines before it is pitch dark. I have seen a few videos and done a little bit of reading on how this is done. Does anyone have any resources that would be beneficial for someone pretty green? I only used food-grade buckets last year beside the trees.

Appreciate any thoughts, or advise!
-Gabriel

[maple flats]

Use the 3/16 line with 5/16" taps and drops. Don't try to focus on the sunny side. Since you should tap all sides of a tree within a given time period, if you tap all on the sunny side one year then at some point you would need to tap all on the least sunny side. If you go on the 3/16" laterals you shoud tap about 1/4 on the north face, 1/4 on the east face, 1/4 on the south and 1/4 on the west. While you do not do it using a compass just as you work the hill, do randomly spread the tapping orientation using all sides. Using the gravity vacuum of a 3/16 lateral you should tap 1 side (or 2 on trees over about 20" DBH) this year using all orientations but trees with 2 taps should be on opposite sides of the tree. Then next year tap at about 180 from the 1 tap trees and 90 degrees from the 2 tap from the previous year. With vacuum (the 3/16 with good drop in elevation gives you good vacuum) I never put in more than 2 taps, on buckets I used to do 3 on a tree that was over 25" DBH. In fact I have very few 2 tap trees because of the vacuum even though I have about maybe 5% of my trees well over 20" DBH.
That all being said, fall tapping will make some syrup but not much compared to the late winter/spring sap season.

[netsplitter]

Thank you for the reply maple flats,

I have so many questions, so I will try and keep them simple.

Are you saying use 3/16 mainline with 5/16 taps and drops? This kind of throws me off, but I will be sure that is what you were saying first.

From my reading, it seemed best to use 3/16 taps/lateral lines, and then a 5/16 mainline. Given that this is all gravity, I am curious to learn how you clean the mainline and what you do with it after the season is over?

When you say that you have very few trees with two taps on the vacuum, why is that? On a gravity system, is sap production not increased as much with more taps vs a bucket system?

Thanks again,

[maple flats]

No, the other way around. Make the taps and drop lines in 5/16 (less sap gets pulled back into the tap hole just before freeze up because the gasses pass the sap. Then use a T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 out the side for the drop line. Then in the 3/16 lateral line, the sap does not pass the gasses so you will see sap/air(really carbon dioxide gas) sap/gas/sap gas etc. Since the sap does not pass the gasses gravity creates a vacuum from the pull of the sap flowing downhill. If the drop is long enough that the sap portion of the sap/gas march is near 30', then you will get the max. possible vacuum for your location which will depend on your elevation and the barometric pressure that day.
To clean it after the season first just pull the top tap and let the lateral drain, you can also flush it with good clean water from the top.
On mine I run mechanical vacuum even on my 3/16 laterals. When my season is done I pull the last tap on each lateral and then I run the vacuum to dry the lines out. I have several mains, some 3/4" but most 1" that my laterals run into, each has a valve at the beginning on the main. When drying the laterals I run just 1 main at a time for better air flow to dry the line. As each line looks dry, I plug the taps until only a few taps remain open, then I open the next main line valve. After that first lateral is fully dry I close that valve. Some laterals only take 2 hrs to dry others might take a whole day. Using gravity vacuum with the 3/16 laterals you could be drying all at the same time because each has it's own vacuum until the column of sap is gone. Then try to put some water in at the top to flush. For that some use a dedicated tank sprayer, one that has never had anything except good clean water in it. Fill it and carry the sprayer to the top of the hill, pump it up and go to work. On a smaller scale you could get a few sprayer bottles at the $ store, fill them with clean water and use them to pump enough water into the top tap to initiate flow and let it work it's way down. You may want to repeat after a minute or 2.
Another idea, you could use a 2 gal picnic jug, filled with water and make up somthing to add to the dispensor spout that you can push the top tap into or onto and let the water run for 6-10 seconds. Then move on to the next lateral.
In case you don't know, a lateral is the line going from tree to tree, a drop connects the tap to the lateral using a Tee.

[netsplitter]

For the T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16, is that almost impossible to attach to a lateral line without a two-handed tool?

If I were taping only 20-30 trees on a mountainside, would it be possible/effective to just use 3/16 lines for what would be the lateral, and mainline?

Thanks for the great ideas/clarification.

[Super Sapper]

For the T that is 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16, is that almost impossible to attach to a lateral line without a two-handed tool?

If I were taping only 20-30 trees on a mountainside, would it be possible/effective to just use 3/16 lines for what would be the lateral, and mainline?

Thanks for the great ideas/clarification.

I would just run one 3/16 the whole way with that many taps. There are several ways to add in the drops on the line. One way would be to string up your 3/16 from start to finish and tighten it up and then mark where your drops will go with a marker. Loosen it up and add in your drops and then tighten it up again. Remember that when you add in your drop it lengthens the line some if you did not cut a small piece out to compensate for it. If you end up with not taking enough out and your drops are past the trees a little on part of the line, you can side tie parts to make them line up better. A side tie is find a tree 90 degrees from you line and pulling it towards the tree with some rope or twine. This will take up some of the slack.

[netsplitter]

I would just run one 3/16 the whole way with that many taps. There are several ways to add in the drops on the line. One way would be to string up your 3/16 from start to finish and tighten it up and then mark where your drops will go with a marker. Loosen it up and add in your drops and then tighten it up again. Remember that when you add in your drop it lengthens the line some if you did not cut a small piece out to compensate for it. If you end up with not taking enough out and your drops are past the trees a little on part of the line, you can side tie parts to make them line up better. A side tie is find a tree 90 degrees from you line and pulling it towards the tree with some rope or twine. This will take up some of the slack.

Thank you, super sapper,

This may be a very dumb question, but when you say tighten - I am imagining tieing the 3/16 tubing around the highest elevation tree (almost in a knot), then zig-zagging downwards in elevation until I get to my last tree/storage container. I assume there is a better way to tighten this, are there some kind of clips to use on each end?

The 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 T's, if you were running two drops/taps on a tree to the lateral line, would you just use two 3/16 x 3/16 x5/16 T's to tie in?

Also - question for anyone regarding pressure gauges. Do most people who use these on gravity lines with guages simply use an additonal T to add the guage permanently to the line?

[maple flats]

No, the top tree (highest) gets an end line fitting of which depending on which company's products you go with can be in many different forms. Then to connect the Tees on that scale I suggest you run the lateral from top to bottom, weaving abck and forth to go past or turn a corner touching every maple, pulling the 3/16 rather snug as you go. Then at the collection container find a way to use a hook connector and from that add a length of additional tubing to actually enter your collection tank. Then use 2 screw clamps with a 18-24" length of light weight rope or cord tying them together just to hold the loose line ends where you won't lose them. Then where you want to add the Tee, cut the line. Many people can push most brands of 3/16 tubing onto the fitting by hand, if you can't just carry a thermos full of clean hot water. Dip the end into the water for a few seconds and then push it on. If you need more help, mix 50/50 glycerine (available at a pharmacy) and water. That mix is used with a "hot end system" for connecting fittings but at your scale the hot end system would not be practical. Another lighter weight method to hold the loose ends is available from Bascom and likely most others. It consists of a braqided string about a stout as a good shoe lace, and 2 or 3 tubing holders. In the tubing holders there are 1 or 2 slots in each, for 3/16" tubing or 5/16 tubing or both. If memory serves me they cost about $10-12. You could also make a set out of scraps of wood and a shoe lace.
The main thing is just that you can set up a loose spot in the tubing for ease of working and then just unhook them and move to the next tree. I always make my drops at home at the kitchen table. Make in your case, 1 for the end tree, and then as many as you will need for the rest. Originally I made my drops all 28", then I went to 30", then 32" and now I make them at 36". I also carry extra 5/16 tubing with me (all of my 3/16 gets drop of 5/16 in case I run into a situation where I want an even longer drop. In that case to longer one is made at the tree. You want the drops longer than you might think just because in subsequent years you will be tapping all around the tree. I change all drops every 3 years, but the laterals are used a lot longer. Then I change a lateral when it has an issue.
Going back to the 2 clamps and a string, you can clamp (use a C clamp) and just tighten it on the tubing, the tubing can be fully crushed without damage.
For tubing brands the only brand I've ever used that did not stretch is Leader, I've use 3 or 4 others and they are somewhat elastic. That helps hold tension from tree to tree. As you run your lateral line also go in a slight zig zag pattern incorporating non maples too, to help hold the line up.
For vacuum gauges, I use them on about 1/3 of my lines, just by running a Tee in the drop and a length of tubing with the gauge on it, but likely few if any at your size operation use a vacuum gauge. They just help you see differences in laterals but in reality, with 3/16, and a drop in elevation you will have vacuum, and you can watch the sap/air/sap march downhill.

[WVKeith]

For fixing the bottom end to the tank, you can use hollow core rope. Then feed about 12 to 18 inches of the 3/16 tubing through the center of the rope, like a finger trap. You can then tighten this as needed I know there are some pictures of this on the trader somewhere.

Keith

[Super Sapper]

I also use the hollow core rope at the end tree and just put my gauge or end tap on the end of the 3/16. You will need a 3/16 X 5/16 connector if you run the 5/16 drops on the rest.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The Old Chinese finger handcuff trick.......a wrap of tape on the end helps keep it tight.

[maple flats]

To add my gauges where I want one, I have both 5/16 and 3/16 x 1/4" female adapters (the 1/4" is a female pipe thread, for the gauge, the other 2 are barb fittings to attach to the lateral or sometimes the drop. Most often I start at the lateral with a tee just like for a drop line but then instead of having a tap. I attach the adapter and screw in a vacuum gauge. Vacuum gauges are cheap and will not all be very accurate, but I only change on if it appears way off. They are there just to help find leaks and to satisfy my curiosity of what the lateral is doing. Don't spend too much on them, a high quality gauge is not worth it for a lateral, if you have a vacuum pump someday, you may want a better one just at the releaser, but I use the cheap ones there too.

[netsplitter]

Thanks all for the great replies / information.

Does anyone have a picture of using a hallow core rope at the end? I was trying to get a visual of this but haven't been able to find one.

[220 maple]

Netsplitter if you are near the I-64 corridor, I suggest you contact some West Virginia producers, most use 3/16 tubing and many are members of the WVMSPA, it would pay you to go look at a tubing set up before you string up tubing, you have time since your not putting in thousands of taps, shoot me a Private Message thru this site, I will give you some ideas who you should contact.
Mark 220 Maple

[netsplitter]

Thanks 220, I fully agree. I have probably have watched every tubing video I could find on youtube, it has given me a bit more confidence towards what I will be doing. The setup does not look too difficult for the size that I am doing.

A couple more questions I do have.

1. If I have 3/16 tubing that will act as both the lateral and mainline If I have a handful of trees that are in an odd spot, would it be fine to simply run a separate 3/16 line to them, and then use a 3/16 tee to connect this line to my "main" 3/16 line?

2. When I was looking at tubing, there was a bit of a price difference between leader rigid tubing and leader max flow, anyone used both and can suggest why?

3. If I had one long 3/16 running going somewhere close to my house, and then 3 separate 3/16 lines all tied into this long 3/16 run, is it true to say any leak within any of those 3/16 runs would affect the flow of everything?

4. What time of year do you start to run your lines / be fully ready to tap? Or better yet, when would you "like" to be completely done and ready?

[WVKeith]

Netsplitter:

In general, it is not a good idea to tee two (or more) 3/16" lines together. You may decrease natural vacuum on one or both lines because of the flow restrictions. The 3/16 does not behave like a "normal" piping system, the flow is dominated by the surface tension/siphon forces. Also, the tees in a 3/16 system are a major constriction.

Generally, if you have good grade, each separate 3/16 line is run to the collection point. Or you can connect them to a larger line. A lot of design decisions depend on your specific situation: grade, number of taps, distances, etc.

I would live to be ready to tap by the first of the year, but usually, I am still installing at that time.

Give an email (keith.heasley@mail.wvu.edu) or call if you want to discuss.

Keith

[netsplitter]

I ran my first line yesterday.

I went back up today and started from the top and tighten the line up. Is there a good rule of thumb for how tight the line should be?

When you install the T's for the taps into the line, I assume that you would want your lateral to be finalized tight wise correct? Do you ever get the T's installed, and have to pull the lateral to retighten the lateral?

[maple flats]

The lateral should be tightened before the Tees go in. However, you can further tension after if needed, just make a side tie to another tree. For that you can use small rope or even more convenient, use 1/2" chain lock strap. Side ties are seldom needed however. I got a spool of that 1/2" chainlock about 8-10 years ago and still have at least half left. On the 1" chainlock I use a few hundred feet every year and even more when I'm running new mainlines.

[n8hutch]

One thing I have learned , the hard way , is you want your drops cut into the tree either on the uphill side of the tree or the down hill side, all my new lines are on the uphill side of the tree that way if you need to tighten the lines when you tap or remove Tee, the drops are not fighting you.

I don't know if that makes sense, in other words if your not methodical about where you cut your lateral in and you want to tighten your line with by pulling with a side tie, or cutting some tubing out your drops might not be long enough when pulling and they become too tight when adjusting line tension between trees because they are working against each other if you have one uphill and one downhill of the tree.

[netsplitter]

@maple flats - Thank you, makes sense. I think I have my first run tight, but not too tight. I didn't want to make it so tight that when I installed the T's, I would fear the tubing would pull off. Hoping I found a good middle ground.

@n8hutch - That does make sense. I put all the T's uphill of the tree's just in case I needed to tighten the lines a bit - thank you!


One additional question

If something were to happen (say a tree fell and messed with the run). Would cutting the tubing, and using an 3/16 - 3/16 end hook to re-attach the tubing be what you would do?


------------------------------

Weather is looking good here where I am located. I have been following a couple producer who live in the same state, but north of me. They seem to plan on tapping right after Christmas. I think if the weather is looking steady around that time, I may begin as well.

[netsplitter]

Today was a good day.

My first run on 3/16th tubing, I was a little discouraged that I had done something incorrect yesterday (I expected a little run), but today it came and I was beyond excited.

I have about 50 taps so far. One of my laterals is great. The other one, I feel like there must be a leak somewhere. It probably is giving me 1/3 the sap flow as the other one, and a lot that comes out of the end is air bubbles, while the other one is a constant stream. I have checked every T, tightend everything, even replaced some of the T's I thought may be questionable, but still nothing seems to change.

Any tricks on finding the culprit?

[minehart gap]

Make sure that all of your spiles are in tight. Don't tap too hard or you will split the bark but tight enough. If your spiles are clear, there should not be a air bubble that stays in the spiles.

Look at the line from bottom to top, if there is a squirrel bite there will be a stream of air bubbles that starts at the hole when the sap is running.

You know that you are getting full vacuum when you get full stream of sap for about 20 to 30 feet before air bubbles.

[esetter]

You guys are getting me pumped up!! Im gonna try to do some 3/16 gravity lines down here as well. Best of luck all season and thanks to everyone who replies to these posts with good experienced advice!

[maple flats]

If you have a leak it can usually be seen at fittings. Watch to locate the first place a fast bubble first shows in the line. However, sometimes it can vary like you are seeing but no leaks. The trees give off gases and those will look like air in the tubing. You will see a line of sap/air/sap/air and so forth all the way down. Higher up on the hill where there are fewer taps above it, the sap/air will move much slower, as you add taps going down hill the flow will start moving faster. Seeing sap and air exit the lateral at the tank is not necessarily a bad thing unless you find a leak.

[netsplitter]

Thanks all - I also echo esetter's appreciation for the help received here.

I did find it interesting, on the lateral that is not doing as well. the very first tap, I can see sap in the line, but it is very slow @maple flats (just like you describe). But the lateral that is running good, it seems to move much faster at the top.

I did have a tree that the tap went much further in that the others, I wonder if maybe it is hallow and may be causing a leak. I think I will check it first thing tomorrow am. I checked the line from bottom to top several times, there was no obvious place where air bubbles were being started. The whole sap flow was kind of sluggish - it is just bugging me now

Here is a short video of the difference. I tried to upload it, but it wouldn't let me. This is just a mp4 that will download, it is less than 1MB.

https://video.flex1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t42.3356-2/49386925_1937649376284944_3080608703144491792_n.mp 4/video-1545704596.mp4?_nc_cat=101&vabr=563601&_nc_ht=video.flex1-1.fna&oh=21e52b1ad7cfcb8a5a84c427623a0b77&oe=5C22FBA5&dl=1

[WVKeith]

One thing that I find useful in leak checking 3/16 tubing is a pair, or two, of needle-nose vise grips with 5/16 in tubing covering the teeth. With these you can pinch off certain drops or sections of the tubing to see the flow change. Another thing, if the sap is flowing and a drop does not have sap in it, that is an indication of a possible leak. You can check a drop by making a U-trap in the line. The sap should pool ar the bottom of the trap with maybe slow air flow. If the sap in the trap gets pushed out quickly by bubbles the spout is probably leaking.

Keith

[netsplitter]

One thing that I find useful in leak checking 3/16 tubing is a pair, or two, of needle-nose vise grips with 5/16 in tubing covering the teeth. With these you can pinch off certain drops or sections of the tubing to see the flow change. Another thing, if the sap is flowing and a drop does not have sap in it, that is an indication of a possible leak. You can check a drop by making a U-trap in the line. The sap should pool ar the bottom of the trap with maybe slow air flow. If the sap in the trap gets pushed out quickly by bubbles the spout is probably leaking.

Keith

needle-nose with tubing covering the teeth - that is a great idea!

[minehart gap]

If one of your taps sunk into the tree further than the rest there is a chance that you split the bark and that will cause a vacuum leak.

From the looks of your video, there may be something else. Perhaps the lateral that isn't running has less taps or doesn't have as much elevation change causing vacuum. Or maybe those taps are in a cooler area that just didn't run. The sap should move faster at the bottom of the lateral than the top.

[netsplitter]

Yeah, I think it is due to number of taps/pressure. I am going to modify that run to include some tree's a left out later tomorrow and see if that improves.

It is warming up today and tomorrow here, will be in the 50's.

The sap has quit running due to the weather. Is it normal for sap/air to stay in the tubing until the next run?

[n8hutch]

Yes you should have sap in the tubing, if you don't then you have a leak, the leak let's air in and allows the tubing to drain.

[minehart gap]

Netspliter, another thing that could cause your one lateral to not run would be a wood shaving or other obstacle blocking flow by getting caught at one of the Tee's.

[netsplitter]

The season started for me today. I checked yesterday around 6PM EST, and nothing was flowing.

Woke up, went to check my tank, I started hearing a hissing sound as I got close. It was completely full, all 40 gallons, and it is pretty air tight, so the sap was trying to come through the lid. My other lateral which is going into a 7 Gallon bucket was completely full as well.

It was flowing like a water spout.

I got my RO out and been using it a good part of the day. The sugar content was pitiful though - around .5 - 1% average. I probably condensed 80gallons into 15 gallons by the time it was over with. No way I could of made it this season without an RO - not with that kind of sugar content.

Even my regular tree that is beside my house on a bucket had lower sugar content than normal (it is always a reliable 1.5%, but today it was 1%).

Just glad to have some sap though, looking forward to boiling this weekend.