Cdl zap bac

[jetdoc]

Has any one used cdl zap bac spouts? If so can you share your pros and cons with them. I'm looking into trying some this coming season.

[maple flats]

I used them on about 125 taps this past season, however because of health issues I got tapped late and had to finish on 4/13 to clean up everything before I had surgery on 4/18. As of 4/13, my last day to collect sap it was still going strong, but that was only 8 weeks after tapping. Not much of a test yet.
I plan to use the same taps 1 more season, along with the 75 remaining unused ones and likely 200 more. All of the new ones will be used at my lease to test, I was not able to tap my lease this past season.
I'm still trying to compare the zap bac with the CV2 for performance. This coming season I will likely have the taps in 2-3 weeks earlier than this past season (due to Dr. instructions until surgery date was set.)
You might want to ask Mountainvan, he has used them for a few seasons. I visited him and he was the one who sold me on them.

[Super Sapper]

I wonder if they would help on buckets. Would they extend the season a little more than regular spouts?

[mountainvan]

I’ve used the zap bac antimicrobial spiles for several seasons and won’t use anything else. First flow this year was January and last was end of April. Only one piece so nothing to get stuck or gummed up.

[steam maker]

do u still change them every year ? or do u get a couple yrs outta them?

[mountainvan]

The full size spiles I’ve used for three years. The adaptors I change each year.

[steam maker]

cool i put out 600 of the full size spouts last yr and plan to do another 600 more this yr. if they work there worth the money.

[jetdoc]

So how long have the zap bac been out in the industry?

[fred]

Been out about 6-7 years. They are good for three as they were designed.cheaper in the long run if used properly

[jetdoc]

Well I took the plunge and ordered 600 of the zap bac. So we will how well they do this coming season.

[maple flats]

You will like them, especially if you get tapped early and then have a long season. If it is a short season you may not see the difference. That being said, remember the taps are good for 2-3 years.

[Urban Sugarmaker]

I'm definitely going to give them a try as well.

[raptorfan85]

Heres a video I found with Tom Kaufman talking about the zap bac spout.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DZyLCEpI9Asw&ved=2ahUKEwj-qPL16bfdAhWmTt8KHaeGBfsQwqsBMAB6BAgKEAU&usg=AOvVaw0hrJ-uNzZMtwRCfpm6YvzI

I think these will be my spouts next year

[amasonry]

has anyone seen these zap bac spouts in 3/16? I looked around...had no luck

[mountainvan]

Tom told me they were going to be made, but not sure when. If I remember I’ll ask him tomorrow. I use the 5/16 -3/16 t’s with the antimicrobial spouts. Works well for me.

[mountainvan]

I was at Toms today and he has the 3/16 spouts in stock. Guess I got the first ones.

[maple flats]

I think I'll continue to use the 5/16. I like the idea of a 5/16 drop even on my 3/16 laterals, thus all of my drops are 5/16, the only thing that changes is if the drop has a 5/16 T or a 3/16 x 5/16 T.

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

Here is what I can tell you about the history of Zap-Bac spouts. We started doing research with a company in Mass. in 2009 ( they are the company that makes the anti-microbial additive- silver). Cornell University's Maple Program has been doing research since 2010 on the spouts and is still doing research today the most recent on 3/16 gravity systems. If you look at the 2018 research that Steve Childs did he compared all of his experiments to a 2 year old system that he had made no changes to. Briefly here are the results: the 2 year old with no changes 19.2 gallons per tap, Leader stubby with check valve adapter 20.8 gallons per tap, new spout and drop 26.4 gallons per tap, New Zap Bac spout and drop 28.7 gallons per tap,all brand new tubing, spouts, drops etc. 35.4 gallons per tap. Cornell has a lot more data on the Zap-Bac spouts on 5/16 gravity systems and years of vacuum system data. You also have to keep in mind that these spouts were designed for multi season use. I suggest 3 years. I hope this helps explains a few things. There will be more research done durning the 2019 season.

[amasonry]

mountainvan, did he say where or when we can get them. this would be the year to do it as it is drop replacement year.

[maple flats]

I'll be getting 2-400 more for 2019, but all in 5/16. While about 2/3 of my taps are in 3/16 I like the idea that a 5/16 drop pulls less back into the tree on the 5/16 thus all of my drops are in 5/16, even if it is a zap bac spout. All of my taps are on vacuum.
I just vacuum dry after the season.

[lewichuk19]

So Dave, i’m setting up a brand new bush this year on 3/16, you recommend using 5/16 drops??...I also want to try these zap bac spouts, but would it make more sense to just use seasonal spouts the first year on virgin tubing/fittings, then replace those with the zap bac spouts the following season....thoughts??

[fred]

I think I'll continue to use the 5/16. I like the idea of a 5/16 drop even on my 3/16 laterals, thus all of my drops are 5/16, the only thing that changes is if the drop has a 5/16 T or a 3/16 x 5/16 T.

If you use a 3/16" drop with 3/16 or 5/16 laterals you gain 2" of vacuum at the tree. The other way around you have air to the tree which shorten the season by delivering bacteria

[BAP]

If you use a 3/16" drop with 3/16 or 5/16 laterals you gain 2" of vacuum at the tree. The other way around you have air to the tree which shorten the season by delivering bacteria
Where are you getting that data from?

[mountainvan]

To buy the 3/16 antimicrobial spout contact Catskill mountain maple in DeLancey,ny. Personally I like a 5/16 drop with 3/16 lateral. I have not used the antimicrobial spouts on new tubing, I like the white spouts.

[Super Sapper]

I am looking at trying some this year also. I have a few runs of 3/16 that are do to be replaced and will go with these spouts even on new tubing as you need to change the drop after 3 years anyway. If only changing every 3 years it brings the yearly cost equal to seasonal spouts.

[n8hutch]

What exactly is in a zap back spout? Why is it antimicrobial ?Does anybody know? Maybe everyone knows and I'm the only one that doesn't? Lol

[maple flats]

According to studies I have looked at, both Cornell and PRMC, it seems both indicate that since in a 3/16 drop the sap and air do not pass each other, a 3/16 drop will allow more sap to re-enter the tree as vacuum is shut off or as the tree freezes. In 5/16 the air (gases) can and do pass the sap, thus much less is pulled back into the tap hole when the vacuum shuts off or the tree freezes because the the sap in the line falls and mstly gases go back in.
I do not shut my vacuum off until 2-3 hours after freeze up, but some sap may still be liquid.

[MapleMark753]

According to the CDL catalog, the antimicrobial spout "Contains silver nanoparticles, approved by Health Canada and the FDA."
They are listed there at 45 cents each.

[DrTimPerkins]

According to the CDL catalog, the antimicrobial spout "Contains silver nanoparticles, approved by Health Canada and the FDA."

However, they are not generally allowed in certified organic maple operations.

[DrTimPerkins]

... in a 3/16 drop the sap and air do not pass each other,....


That is generally the case in 3/16" tubing (drops and lateral lines), which is how/why vacuum is created. In that small a line, capillarity and surface tension (water "sticks" to itself fairly strongly) don't easily let air flow through the slugs of sap. The air gets pushed/pulled out of the system instead of rising to the top, creating vacuum.

[fred]

Where are you getting that data from?

Steve Childs research.

[spud]

Here is what I can tell you about the history of Zap-Bac spouts. We started doing research with a company in Mass. in 2009 ( they are the company that makes the anti-microbial additive- silver). Cornell University's Maple Program has been doing research since 2010 on the spouts and is still doing research today the most recent on 3/16 gravity systems. If you look at the 2018 research that Steve Childs did he compared all of his experiments to a 2 year old system that he had made no changes to. Briefly here are the results: the 2 year old with no changes 19.2 gallons per tap, Leader stubby with check valve adapter 20.8 gallons per tap, new spout and drop 26.4 gallons per tap, New Zap Bac spout and drop 28.7 gallons per tap,all brand new tubing, spouts, drops etc. 35.4 gallons per tap. Cornell has a lot more data on the Zap-Bac spouts on 5/16 gravity systems and years of vacuum system data. You also have to keep in mind that these spouts were designed for multi season use. I suggest 3 years. I hope this helps explains a few things. There will be more research done durning the 2019 season.


I cannot find any research from Steve Childs on the Zap Bac. I looked on Cornells site. The numbers your posting seem a little odd. Research has shown that a two year old system only will drop about 5+/-% in GPT. It is on the third year that the CV2 spouts start paying for themselves. The numbers you are showing suggest there is a 8 GPT difference between Zap Bac and CV2 spouts on the second year. What the numbers are not showing is the size of each tree and how many trees were used in each situation. Can someone please steer me in the right direction in finding this research? The U-Tube video tells me nothing. The research numbers on the CV2 spouts are very detailed. I would like to see/read the same detailed research on the Zap Bac. Thanks

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

I cannot find any research from Steve Childs on the Zap Bac. I looked on Cornells site. The numbers your posting seem a little odd. Research has shown that a two year old system only will drop about 5+/-% in GPT. It is on the third year that the CV2 spouts start paying for themselves. The numbers you are showing suggest there is a 8 GPT difference between Zap Bac and CV2 spouts on the second year. What the numbers are not showing is the size of each tree and how many trees were used in each situation. Can someone please steer me in the right direction in finding this research? The U-Tube video tells me nothing. The research numbers on the CV2 spouts are very detailed. I would like to see/read the same detailed research on the Zap Bac.

Steve has done some work on the Zap-Bac, and presented it here and there. It hasn't yet been presented in a multi-year summary, but I think he has plans to do that at some point. The data presented in that post you quoted is somewhat "cherry picked" in my opinion, and not representative of the totality of results. Kind of like saying that my Ford F350 got 88 mpg, but not mentioning that it was while you were coasting downhill. I guess that is the difference between research and advertising. From what I have read of Steve's work and from our work at UVM, on average over the lifetime of a spout, silver falls out about mid-way between using a new spout and using a new drop. The "net profit" calculation ends up falling out about the same...about half way between a new spout and a new drop...basically about in the same range as using isopropyl alcohol (which is ILLEGAL in the U.S.).

It is a bit hard to interpret the results because (I believe), in one of the trials, Steve reamed out the Zap-Bac spout with a wire brush on a drill to expose more new surface (and thus more silver), which would greatly increase the performance, but also add a lot to the cost of using the spouts and isn't suggested.

In general, based upon a lot of research from multiple sources, from best to worst, in terms of sap yield:

New Drop+Spout > Bleach > CV=CV2 > IPA > Zap-Bac > New Spout > H2O2 > H2O > Old Spout

In terms of net profit:

New Drop+Spout = Bleach = CV > IPA = Zap-Bac > H2O > Old Spout > H2O2

(note that this is with a new Drop+Spout on a 3 yr rotation, and that bleach cleaning is done with a LONG contact time -- short contact time with almost all sanitizer is NOT effective. You may also see that H2O2 aka Peroxide is worse that an old spout in terms of net profit...this is because it is costly and not terribly effective).

The actual net profit results depend upon your yields, your costs, and the price you sell your sap or syrup for.

To add to the history....at the time that PFA tablet was developed in the 1950's silver was also tested. It was rejected at the time because the effect didn't last the entire season (they squirted a solution of oligodynamic silver into tapholes). At UVM PMRC we tested nano-silver embedded in spouts starting in 2008, but dropped it after a few years because we found performance dropped off over time, because we were concerned about it not being allowed in certified organic maple production, and because we didn't know the fate of the silver that was released. I think we actually wrote out the patent application, but didn't submit it.

[DrTimPerkins]

If you look at the 2018 research that Steve Childs did he compared all of his experiments to a 2 year old system that he had made no changes to. Briefly here are the results: the 2 year old with no changes 19.2 gallons per tap, Leader stubby with check valve adapter 20.8 gallons per tap, new spout and drop 26.4 gallons per tap, New Zap Bac spout and drop 28.7 gallons per tap,all brand new tubing...

In case it wasn't clear to everyone from the above (and from reading Steve's full results in The Maple News)....the Zap-Bac data for 2018 was also on NEW 5/16" DROPS, so the results presented are due to a COMBINATION of new drops and net Zap-Bac spouts. In contrast, the Leader Stubby/CV were on 2-Yr old used 3/16" systems. These are apples and oranges type comparisons. 5/16" tubing systems are well understood in terms of sanitation issues. 3/16" tubing systems have both sanitation and clogging issues that result in yield decreases.

[spud]

Thank you Dr. Tim for separating facts from Fiction. Not only is the Zap Bac truck rolling down a steep hill but it's also full of new drops. :lol:

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

Since I have dealt with this subject quite a lot since about 2008, I went back to the primary literature on this for actual numbers. As I said, Steve Childs (Cornell) has done the bulk of the research on the silver spouts. From 2010-2013 he compared new spouts and drops, CV spouts, and silver spouts all against old spouts and drops.

I made a quick graph from these data, shown in the attached figure.

19087

A little explanation is important here as well:

This is all from controlled studies, with vacuum, on 5/16" tubing.

The second year (2011) Steve tested silver spouts, he ran a wire brush through them to create a fresh surface. This is not typical practice.

It should also be noted that 2012 was a TERRIBLE year for ANY type of sanitation to be effective.

So the final averages over those 4 yrs are:

New drop and spout = 102% improvement (almost always the best in terms of sap yield, but the cost drops the net profit, so typically drops are replaced every 3 yrs)
CV spout = 75% improvement (generally falls below total drop+spout replacement, but is cheaper to do, so net profit is about equal or higher than drop replacement unless yields are extremely high and you're retailing most of your syrup, or your materials+labor costs are very low)
Silver spout = 46% improvement (intermediate in terms of yield improvement)

It isn't shown in these data, but in general, over MANY years and MANY studies at UVM PMRC and Cornell, we see that a new spout along gives about a 31% improvement alone.

If you go with only the first three years, you get 98.7%, 78.3%, and 50.7% improvement.

The source material for these results from the Cornell Tubing Notebook is shown below in case anyone is interested. They are taken from the Vacuum side, only from the controlled studies done at Arnot.

19088

19089

19090

[spud]

Thank you Dr. Tim for the information. So the charts are telling me that the Silver spouts are the least effective of the three options. In fact if it was not for the mid season wire brush through the silver spout then the silver spout would not even be worth mentioning. It also appears these test were all done with NEW spouts ( both CV2 and Silver ). The Promotional ad on the U-Tube video suggest the Silver spouts can be used for 3 years. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say NO spout should be used for three years in todays sugaring industry.

Spud

[mountainvan]

For me last year was the end of using the cv spouts. After the sap started again my bushes with zap bac kept going, the cv bush stopped mainly due to them being plugged up. I’m sure someone will say it was an abnormal year, but that seems to be the new norm. Also, if you have not used the product directly you might want to stay on the trunk of the tree.

[heus]

For me last year was the end of using the cv spouts. After the sap started again my bushes with zap bac kept going, the cv bush stopped mainly due to them being plugged up. I’m sure someone will say it was an abnormal year, but that seems to be the new norm. Also, if you have not used the product directly you might want to stay on the trunk of the tree.
This is EXACTLY my experience with the cv2's as well. I will never again be able to trust a spout that has a moving part that easily plugs up. I realize they work great for others, but in MY situation, in my woods, with my trees, and my weather, they have cost me alot of sap the past few years.

[DrTimPerkins]

For me last year was the end of using the cv spouts.

Van...Not meaning to be argumentative, but just trying to understand. You have said in numerous posts since the CV first came out that you didn't like them, they didn't work, you wouldn't use them, and have praised the the silver spout. Given that, WHY are you still using them at all?

Heus...I don't know your situation, but would certainly be happy to hear more about how you're using them to try to understand why they (seemingly) aren't working for you. Send me an email Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu if you like with some details of your operation and experience with CVs and other spouts.

[heus]

email sent Dr. Tim

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Interesting conversation for sure. Too early to know anything 100% factual on the Zapbacs but they are intriguing. In the use of the CV's, does UVM or anyone have data on plugged CV's, % plugged or anything like that? Or is anyone currently tracking it?

[spud]

I have bought 1000s of CV2 spouts and have only seen a few dozen ever plug up. Every one of the plugs was from shavings. It's safe to say all my plugged spouts are my fault. I buy 4-5 new bits every season and make sure they are very sharp. In doing so I can assure the holes drill clean. I suspect those who have many plugged CV2 spouts should examine their bits.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

In the use of the CV's, does UVM or anyone have data on plugged CV's, % plugged or anything like that? Or is anyone currently tracking it?

There is no tracking that I am aware of, and I'm really not sure how you'd go about it, how you'd judge whether a spout was "plugged" or not, or what it would mean. At the end of some seasons almost every type of spout (CV, non-CV, silver spouts) are plugged up. Other years none are. When we do see plugging, it is only at the VERY end of the season and the end of the life of any particular taphole. Typically other types of spouts plug up (mostly whiteish jelly-like snot material, see attached photo) several days to a week before CV spouts. More typically we just see taphole drying with yeast in the tapholes.

19109
Note that this is a regular spout, NOT a CV spout.

Realistically, plugging isn't something that is either consistent from year-to-year or meaningful....what matters is how much sap you get out of the taphole.

In general, plugging is not what results in reduced sap yields. By the time plugging occurs the season is over. Rather it is the slowing down of flow starting about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way into the season and the cumulative effect of progressively slower flows over the last 1/2 - 2/3 of the season. Unless you're actually measuring the sap volume from each taphole you probably won't notice this at first. By 2/3 of the way in the difference becomes much more noticeable, with various sanitation practices resulting in different levels of continuing flow (old spouts very low flow, new spouts better, silver and CV spouts better, bleach cleaned/long-contact time and new drops+spouts best).


I have bought 1000s of CV2 spouts and have only seen a few dozen ever plug up. Every one of the plugs was from shavings. It's safe to say all my plugged spouts are my fault. I buy 4-5 new bits every season and make sure they are very sharp. In doing so I can assure the holes drill clean. I suspect those who have many plugged CV2 spouts should examine their bits.

This is our experience as well. We've seen very little plugging or no plugging of CV spouts that impacts actual sap yields. Plugging, when it does happen, is when sap flows stop. By the time you see the plugging, the CV has already done its job a long time ago.

Now plugging in 3/16" tubing (mostly at fittings) after a few years of use is a whole different matter, and one which we're still working to find the best way to resolve.

[collinsmapleman2012]

maybe leader could end the argument and make silver cv spouts. best of both worlds.

[DrTimPerkins]

maybe leader could end the argument and make silver cv spouts. best of both worlds.

Unless you're an organic certified maple producer.

[maple flats]

That would be a good way to get the cost over $1.00 /tap.

[Sugar Bear]

WOW

This thread is fascinating!

No Politics / Financial Interests involved at all.

Just pure unquestioned science.

The Catskill Plateau is a very under rated place. With incredibly beautiful landscape and some really good hardworking people. Straight shooting and honest.

Some of the best hardwood forests on the planet. Cherry trees on Van Wyck Ridge 48" in diameter and straight as an arrow for 50 feet. To bad they don't run sugar as we know it.

No science needed to back that up.

Cool

[Tigermaple]

I have used Cv2 spouts the last 5 seasons, about 20000 of them. I really like the theory but in the field I'm not so sure. We had many more plugged spouts the past two seasons than previously. Also about 1 percent break inside the tree creating hard to find leaks that need a new spout and hole the fix. Many break at extraction also, leaving plastic in the tree. Finally, they are very stiff plastic so it is easy to damage the tree by overdriving. This year we are testing CDL signatures on half and cv2 on the other. It won't be scientific (I don't know how Dr Tim does it with all the variables ) but I'll report back.
Pat

[Snowmad]

It's interesting how there are 2 distinct camps regarding which is best. All due respect to both parties but as with anything, it's hard to know who or what to trust unless you try it yourself. I know that CV spouts have sold very well for Leader due to UVM research and now the dealers for Zap Bac can't keep them on the shelves due to Cornell research. I had not heard about the wire brushing on the ZB's, that's interesting.
Here's my story. I'm a small producer (300 taps) using all 3/16 natural vacuum. Last year I tried 100 CV's on 3/16 natural vac. In theory they seemed great but I observed a few things about them I did not like. I had a few leaks at the tree which I haven't had with regular CDL spouts. I may have driven them in too far which caused them to leak. That may explain why I had a hard time pulling them from the tree. I did have a couple break off in the tree. Upon removal, I noticed some had balls missing. A Leader dealer told me it was possible that the tip of the spout came off and the ball fell out, however upon inspection of my old spouts this fall, I did not find that to be the case. I have no idea where the balls could have gone or gotten out. I noticed when I pulled some spouts, the ball was stuck open (not too upsetting) or stuck closed (upsetting). If the sap can't get out of the spout, that's not making me any syrup! I also noticed with several of the spouts that were located where the sun could hit them upon removing them (2nd week of April) that there was a green snotty slime around the inside of the spout. I did NOT detect that in any of the white CDL spouts in similar situations. Perhaps the clear spout created a mini-greenhouse effect and caused the hole to warm up more thereby encouraging the slime to appear (I'm not a chemist, just my guess). Lastly, and probably the most troubling to me, was when I pulled the taps, I used a backpack sprayer with water to rinse the line at each drop. I then typically allow my drops to hang a couple of weeks to air dry the lines. When I went back to plug the spouts into the "T's", I found there was still some residual water in the drop that could not escape due to the check valve. I'm not sure if at this point you should cut the spout off or what. I did hold them up above the lateral line again to drain but I felt that the lines didn't dry out as I am used to and it was an extra step and dither to try to get water out (I'm sure water droplets were still in the drops). Unfortunately for me, I have the cup style CDL T's and the Leader CV's don't seem to fit them very well. If I were to use this set up exclusively I would want Leader T's but I prefer the CDL's due to the double barbs. This year I begrudgingly bought another couple of bags of the CV's and I'm using them in some 2nd and 3rd year lines in one woods. In my other woods I changed out the drops and am using 3/16 laterals and 5/16 drops with the Zap Bacs. Since I just tapped this week, I don't have any experience with them, other than I like the concept of the 5/16 drop and the ZB's. I liked how the ZB's had a big head, they drove well, and my 6 year old assistant was able to get them in with just a few taps of the tapping hammer. A year ago however I liked the CV concept so I guess time will tell after this season. Going forward, my plan is 1st year use a CDL seasonal white spout, 2nd and 3rd year use Leader CV's, then when I replace the drop go with 5/16 and the ZB's. That way everyone makes a little $ off me! :) If the ZB's work great, in the future I may just use them with the 5/16 even on new installs.

[BAP]

Snowmad, are you using the clear or black CV spouts? Also, at the end of the season, the CV spouts need to be taken off to allow the line to drain out.

[maple flats]

I actually use the Zap Bac on new drops too, even though it is no necessary. Since last year was my first on them, those are now on year 2. I still had maybe 150 CV2 taps that also got used. All I bought this year are the Zap Bac. I got them based solely on a visit I made to see Mountainvan's operation and his experience with them. Last year I used half CV2 and half Zap Bac.

[spud]

What was Mountainvans experience with them? Why not share the three year numbers? Nobody will get good production numbers by using these spouts for three seasons. I bet those using the silver spouts are not coming close to the production numbers that PMRC is getting. There is NO real research on these spouts. A wire brush through any spout mid season will help production.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

I actually use the Zap Bac on new drops too, even though it is no necessary.


On a new system (completely new tubing or new drop/spout) there is no real need to use any additional sanitation beyond a new spout. That goes for either a CV or a Zap-Bac. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it is counter-indicated to use a Zap-Bac on a new system, since you'll use up some of the pool of available silver the first year when you don't really need it. Better to go with a new drop (tee, tubing) with a new standard spout and then put either a CV or a Zap-Bac on the second and subsequent years.

There have been numerous research studies by UVM, Cornell, and Centre Acer on the CV showing the benefits in terms of improved sap yields and net profit. There has been very little on the Zap-Bac. What has been done shows the Zap-Bac falls somewhere between using a new spout (regular, non-CV, non-silver) and either bleach-cleaning (with long-contact time) or using the CV spout/adapter system in terms of net economic profit. What work has been done on the Zap-Bac seems to indicate that it works reasonably well the first year, with the effect dropping off over the next two years (suggested lifespan by the manufacturer of 3 yrs). Running a wire brush on a drill through them probably helps (by exposing more fresh surface) quite a lot, however that is costly in terms of time/effort required, so it impacts the net profitability considerably.

[Snowmad]

Snowmad, are you using the clear or black CV spouts? Also, at the end of the season, the CV spouts need to be taken off to allow the line to drain out.

I used clear. On one 30 tap line I ran the stubby spouts with the clear CV. I can see taking the CV off in that situation I guess to allow them to drain, but to take a regular CV off would leave the end of each drop open all summer, unless you suggest putting the new spout on in the spring when you plug them up for the summer.

[Walling's Maple Syrup]

I used clear. On one 30 tap line I ran the stubby spouts with the clear CV. I can see taking the CV off in that situation I guess to allow them to drain, but to take a regular CV off would leave the end of each drop open all summer, unless you suggest putting the new spout on in the spring when you plug them up for the summer.
I cut them off when pulling them at the end of each season. I Use a post t. I let them hang for a few weeks to dry then plug tubing onto t.
Neil

[n8hutch]

I personally think that the most important thing when it comes to taps is syrup production. Plugged up spouts or spouts broken off in trees or bells that dont seem to move at the end of the season are pretty insignificant things. What's important to me is sap/syrup produced per dollar spent. Until I see something very convincing in writing I'm going to stick with CV2s , I think its important to note that I use alot ot CDL stuff, Almost all my tubing is CDL. I guess I'm young enough that I would think that I will see the Patent expire and we'll see how many companies start selling some type of CV, then the proof will be in the pudding as they say.

[Snowmad]

I cut them off when pulling them at the end of each season. I Use a post t. I let them hang for a few weeks to dry then plug tubing onto t.
Neil

That seems like a good way to do it. Unfortunately with my cup style T's I can't do that. I know you guys like them, I'm still on the fence giving them another try this year but trying the Zap Bacs too. What a great time to be in the maple business, there are so many changes and ideas that are available. I should say that ANY tubing system beats the ****ed old buckets! :)

[minehart gap]

Because we are comparing CV spouts with ZB spouts and the financial issue had been mentioned, I am not sure how an argument can be made that the CV spouts are more economical as Dr. Tim had claimed. The CV spouts are roughly $0.40 plus labor to replace the spout per year but you keep the drop line whereas the ZB is around $0.42 per tap once every three years with no yearly replacement labor and no new dropline. Please let me know what I am missing.

I currently use CV spouts with mixed results. I tapped on February 3rd and have had several CV spiles become "plugged" by it's own ball. On the other hand, I have purchased a bag of ZB spiles but have not used them yet as all of my drop lines (except CV laterals) were replaced this year and I decided to install the ZB spiles on year old drop lines.

[n8hutch]

Because we are comparing CV spouts with ZB spouts and the financial issue had been mentioned, I am not sure how an argument can be made that the CV spouts are more economical as Dr. Tim had claimed. The CV spouts are roughly $0.40 plus labor to replace the spout per year but you keep the drop line whereas the ZB is around $0.42 per tap once every three years with no yearly replacement labor and no new dropline. Please let me know what I am missing.
Your missing a Detailed Study with all variables covered, you have nothing that says what the production is of a Zap Bac spout in year 3, sure you save 40 cents on the tap but if you lose out on 4 dollars worth of sap how much have you saved?

We know Check valves work, we have study's, we have people in the field making .5 gallons of syrup per tap, or better, consistently, year after year.

The Zap Bac might be better than a CV in the end who knows, but I haven't seen anything as of right now that would convince me of that.

Before these Zap Bac spouts came out CDL was pushing there white spouts pretty hard, I don't hear much about those now, I have 4 bags of them, they are a fine spout. I'll use them up on new drops.

[mountainvan]

Alright already... first of all I am not a spokesmodel for any maple equipment producer or am getting any reimbursement. I am a full time maple farmer who wants to get the most sap/syrup I can in the short season we have. I did use the cv2 last year in one sugarbush because of squirrels. The little suckers chew on everything except the hard plastic spouts. I have not used the zap bac for three years running, just two. Still an good value for this farmer. Last year was the first year in awhile I kept good records. This is mainly due to me trying to make a living and stay amongst the living. Record keeping seemed unimportant at that time. Last year I did keep records of the sap I brought in from each bush, mainly just to see what was getting me good sap and what I needed to change. I have 5 main bushes, 4 with Alamo vacuum and one 3/16 gravity bush. I used new cdl white spout, new zap bac spout on one year old drops, and stubbie with zap bac adaptor on three-five year old drops. Here’s what I got in gals of sap/tap.

New everything -21.5
New zap bac- 24.17
New cv2-13.1
New zap bac adaptor- 20.7 Alamo
16 3/16 tubing
As you can see the cv2 spouts were not the best for me last year, or the 3/16 bush. I do have a clue to why the cv2 spouts did not do well.
Lots of gunk in the spouts after no real sap flow for most of March gummed up the balls in the cv2 spouts, leaving them either closed or open and not functioning the way they were designed. Some were still working as designed, but not many.
I made these observations while pulling spouts and flushing each drop with cleaning water while the vacuum was on.
Since the zap bacs are like a regular spout, just antimicrobial, they did not gum up and worked as designed.
I have had some success with the cv2 in past years, but last year was too much lost sap which means less syrup which is equals less income. Last year was probably an anomaly, but maybe not. I can’t take the chance of losing income because of one little ball not working correctly.
I am not posting this looking for a quarrel, just giving my experience with the various spouts last year.
Tomorrow begins the sap extravaganza of 2019, so I will not be responding to this post or any other about the pro or cons of various spouts. Have a most excellent sugaring season.

[spud]

Thank you Mountainvan for responding. I find it very odd that the CV2 spouts only gave you 13.1 GPT. You did mention that the CV2 spouts were used in a squirrel invested woods where they chew ( Everything ) except the CV2 spouts. Is it possible that you suffered very low vacuum in that woods due to the squirrels? Low vacuum will cause sap to move very slow or not at all at times. Is it possible the vacuum and sap flow was restricted due to chews in the tubing? It is possible this is what caused (still) sap to gunk up in the CV2 spouts? The PMRC has tested GPT on ten year old drops with CV2 spouts and the numbers do not drop that much over the ten year time frame. My guess is the CV2 spouts were not the problem for your low production. I wish you the best this season.

Spud

[DrTimPerkins]

Van...thank you for the numbers, although I'd need more detail on the age and size (diameter) of droplines for all your sites to understand better.

I don't discount that you found those results, but I don't think you can draw any real conclusions from it for a variety of reasons. Spud mentions one possibility, which is probably a very good guess. Small changes in vacuum results in BIG changes in yield. I'd also suggest tree size as a possible factor, or perhaps location differences. Last spring (2018) in particular was notoriously bad for microclimate effects, with some people getting great production and others just a short distance away doing very poorly. This is why when we do research we try to eliminate all those extraneous factors to the extent possible, by making sure the vacuum is the same throughout the area, the trees are the same average size (typically within 0.1%), and all the trees we compare are within the same area. Another thing you have going on that might confound interpretation of results is a mix of 5/16" tubing pumped vs 3/16" natural vacuum. I've said this MANY times, but the two lateral/dropline tubing sizes are VERY different in how they respond during aging, with yields from 5/16" tubing being mainly affected by sanitation, which we understand very well, and 3/16" tubing being affected by sanitation AND plugging (mainly at the tee) issues, which greatly increases the complexity and variability of the results. Using new spouts, CV spouts, or Zap-Bac spouts does not (and cannot) address the plugging issue, because that is not where the problem is occurring. At this point the only thing we know for sure that solves the 3/16" plugging issue is drop replacement, but we're hopeful that chemical sanitation will also work (and both UVM and Cornell will be testing that this spring).

Like others, I think yield is the primary measure of spout performance. I don't care one bit what it looks like when the spouts are pulled, since the sap is done running by that point.

Unfortunately there is relatively little research on the Zap-Bac. We did some work early on (on silver-impregnated fittings) and found they worked well the first year, but that performance dropped off quickly, so that yields were no better in the second year than simply putting on a new spout. We dropped the project, partly due to that and partly due to the fact that we are organic maple producers and this product is not allowed in organic maple production. I would also like to know whether, and how much, silver accumulates in the syrup. Interestingly, scientists tested silver back in the 1950s as a way to prevent taphole drying. At that time they concluded it wasn't particularly effective.

When you review the only real scientific data (from Steve Childs, Cornell) from controlled testing in 5/16" tubing systems on vacuum with the Zap-Bac over several years you get (in order of new to old from 2010-2012): 67%, 72%, and 13% (note that before the 2nd year Steve ran a brush through to expose more fresh silver on the surface, which is NOT typical). This averages a 51% improvement over 3 yrs. That is almost certain to be an overestimate of the Zap-Bac performance due to the 2nd Yr brushing. The probably true average (without brushing) is probably in the range of 40-45% improvement averaged over 3 Yrs.

For CV systems...same study, same time frame, Steve got: 114%, 101%, 20%, averaging 78%.

For the CV and Zap-Bac, they were on the same age of droplines. Steve's approach is well described in his work, with a good sample size.

For a new drop...same study, same time frame, Steve got: 151%, 125%, 25%, averaging 100%.

In general, with a new spout alone, we see an average of about a 31% improvement.

Those are all in the Cornell Tubing Notebook and other publications by Steve. They aren't hard to find.

So to summarize:

New Spout 31%, Zap-Bac 51% (true range likely 40-45%), CV 78%, New Drop/Spout 100%. The obvious conclusion is that the CV does significantly better than the Zap-Bac (~53% better in this case, or about 10.5 gal MORE SAP per tap per year if the Zap-Bac produces 20 gal/tap per year) over the 3 Yr lifespan of the Zap-Bac, and because the cost and labor are far lower than using a New Drop/New Spout, it turns out to be the approach that generally produces the highest net profit.

Those are Steve's results of scientific, replicated tests done over several years in a very controlled fashion. There are no vacuum differences, no tree size differences, no site differences, no dropline age differences, no differences other than sanitation treatment. They are the only apples-to-apples comparison, and the results are pretty clear and as unbiased as you're going to get (but again, the Zap-Bac results are, if anything, an overestimate). Although some people like to argue that I am biased so you can't believe the results, the UVM PMRC results are incredibly consistent with the Cornell results, except that we actually tend to find slightly LOWER increases than Steve observes for the CV and New Drop, which might be partially explained by our higher vacuum levels, pump management, and electric releaser, all of which tend to moderate the effectiveness of sanitation approaches.

So, I'm not saying that the Zap-Bac won't improve yields...it seems to (we found that silver would do that back in 2008...but the improvement didn't persist), and I agree that more research is clearly needed. But it cannot match the CV in terms of yield or net profit over a multi-year timeframe.

If anyone is going to use the Zap-Bac or CV system, don't bother in the first year of a new tubing system....the New Drop/New Spout will be enough. Put them on starting in Yr 2.

[Tigermaple]

Dr Tim, what type of vac are you using for you studies? and do you leave it on all season once it starts? This is very interesting.

[DrTimPerkins]

Since we retubed our operation in 2004, we've gone from using an Airblo Flood vane pump that was oil-cooled (lower vacuum, higher CFM), to Atlantic-Fluidics liquid ring oil-cooled pumps (good vacuum, lower CFM), to our current Busch rotary-claw pumps (high vacuum, high CFM). We've also gone from Bernard/Lapierre mechanical releasers to a CDL electric releaser. Our vacuum has gone up a bit from maybe 22-23" Hg in 2004 to 25-27" Hg (at our elevation, 27" is a really good day) the last several years. All our pumps are on a VFD and are on the entire season from when we finish tapping until we pull spouts, unless they need service (typically we try to service them when it is really cold). The only time they are off is if the power goes out. We also usually pair up pumps (often one for research and one for production) in the plumbing so that if one fails we can open a bridge and service both research and production while we fix the one that is down. Having a pump go down is rare since we will service them in the summer and then fire them up monthly for an hour or two until the season starts. Our pumps are set up in identical fashion, and are plug-n-play with all the other pumps we use, so we can shuffle things around easily if we need to. We also have an extensive Smartrek system in place, so we know immediately if there are problems, and jump right on them.

As we've transitioned through these systems, we've reduced the instances and severity of backflow events. In doing this, we find that sanitation, while still VERY important in terms of yield, is somewhat less critical. Sanitation effects are muted by any changes you make that reduce backflow (good vacuum, no leaks, electric releaser, dual-pipeline systems, pump always on). However....even if you do all those things it doesn't mean that you'll be able to achieve great results by only changing spouts each year. That is a myth, which unfortunately, is still perpetuated by some companies.

[Tigermaple]

Thanks Doc for your very informative response. We switched to a Airtech vane system this year and now I wish we did this years ago. But I am disappointed to learn even keeping 27" hg won't overcome the tree's natural vacuum enough to keep sap in the drop. I was hoping letting it run would evacuate more sap in the lines. Either way we seem to be producing more per but there is a long way to go.

[DrTimPerkins]

The tree can only generate a limited amount of vacuum. If you could constantly keep good vacuum on the lines, you wouldn't experience any appreciable backflow of sap. The problem occurs especially after a sap run of a day or more when the vacuum has been transferred to some degree into the tree tissues by the tubing system. If you experience a leak at that point, there will be bulk movement of sap back into the taphole from the tubing system until the vacuum pressure is equalized. The sap moves into the wood tissue (where it originated), but the sap movement transfers microbes from the tubing system into the taphole. It mostly collects along the periphery of the taphole, where it induces the tree wound response commonly known as "taphole drying."

[Sugar Bear]

very interesting thread and yes these questions do pertain to it.

I am a small time tapper of only 40 taps. I have not used the ZB tap but have used the CV clear tap against the standard clear tap and definitely seem to get better life and more sap out of them. No surprise their.

In question or should i say "competition" here we have two taps. One with silver in it or the ZB tap and the other with a check valve in it or the CV tap.
Lets say we had a third tap, one that was a plug with no hole inside of it out to a tubing line. It would not be a very productive tap for maple syrup making purposes. It would be hermetically and hydraulically sealed off with whatever material necessary to do and insure that. In essence it would be just a plug inside a normal or standard size tap hole for any other spout.

So my real question is when would the "plug tap" stop flowing sap ( inside the tap hole of course ) with respect to the normal taps. Is bacteria sealed out indefinitely? I doubt it but I defer to your answers. Would you be able to pull the plug out next tap season and put a normal tap in and get sap? I doubt it but defer to your answers again.

So then my other real question would be does a silver tap possibly work from both sides of the tap? The inside hole that sap is flowing through and the outside of the barrel of the tap that contacts the tree?

[letmgo]

When tapping today, I found that 90 percent of the zap-bac spouts in my sugar bush had moderate to severe squirrel damage. The squirrels never touched the drops, just the spouts, mostly on the head. These spouts were installed last season, and cleaned well. The several dozen black Leader spouts used in this sugarbush were never touched. What is there about these green spouts that is so attractive to squirrels?

[spud]

It’s possible that the silver inside attracts them. It also is possible that the color green attracts them. I have noticed in my years of sugaring that tree rats like to chew green tubing more then blue. I have never had any animal bother with my CV2 spouts.

Spud

[WestfordSugarworks]

If anyone is going to use the Zap-Bac or CV system, don't bother in the first year of a new tubing system....the New Drop/New Spout will be enough. Put them on starting in Yr 2.

Dr. Tim, I thought I remember you saying in a presentation at one of the Open Houses maybe 4 years ago (or I read a publication on PMRC website) that the financial benefit wasn't realized with a CV until year 3. We have been running a normal spout for the first two seasons and then we start CV2s for season 3 and onwards..

[DrTimPerkins]

The precise calculation depends on your yield. Year 1 (new) there is only a slight benefit of the CV. Year 2 is larger, but the economic gain is marginal, but tends to be slightly positive, and depends upon other factors as well (electric releaser vs mechanical releaser, normal sap yield, etc). Year 3+ the economic gain (net profit) is almost always positive.

[jetdoc]

Letmgo. I to had some problems with my taps. About 5 of them from deer chewing on them and about a dozen or so with other damage.

[WestfordSugarworks]

The precise calculation depends on your yield. Year 1 (new) there is only a slight benefit of the CV. Year 2 is larger, but the economic gain is marginal, but tends to be slightly positive, and depends upon other factors as well (electric releaser vs mechanical releaser, normal sap yield, etc). Year 3+ the economic gain (net profit) is almost always positive.

Thanks, and thank you also for all you do for the industry and your wealth of knowledge that you generously share.