A trade war a come-in

[Haynes Forest Products]

So Canada is threatening to put tariffs on items leaving the US into Canada. One of the items is Maple syrup. How can that be if Canada makes the most and has such large reserves why do we sell them any??? :confused: Let the discussion begin.

[Maple Man 85]

Valid point Haynes, in my mind if Canada puts a tariff on imported syrup that should strengthen the value of our syrup, why would we as producers want to deal with that... I feel like Canada would be shooting themselves in the foot here... The only thing stopping us here in the states is complacency so sell more retail, create new markets and tap more trees! We have the resources we just have to get off our a!# and do it.

[FDA]

So Canada is threatening to put tariffs on items leaving the US into Canada. One of the items is Maple syrup. How can that be if Canada makes the most and has such large reserves why do we sell them any??? :confused: Let the discussion begin.

Fake News! I thought avoiding politics was one of the rules here?

[Louie]

Fake News! I thought avoiding politics was one of the rules here?

List of items Canada will tax and maple syrup and sugar is on the list.
https://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/consult/cacsap-cmpcaa-eng.asp

Listed in table 2 and that means a 10% tax.

[Haynes Forest Products]

FDA I'm not talking politics I'm talking about current events and that would be the talk about Canada retaliating with what they called unfair tariffs buy putting them on Maple syrup. This is a maple forum and its relevant.

Why do you call it fake news? Did I miss read something?

[markcasper]

FDA I'm not talking politics I'm talking about current events and that would be the talk about Canada retaliating with what they called unfair tariffs buy putting them on Maple syrup. This is a maple forum and its relevant.

Why do you call it fake news? Did I miss read something?

I don't think its fake news and this would be much more than "politics", someone is just trying to blow smoke again! With 50% of the Canadian syrup getting exported to the US, (feel free to correct me if I am wrong.) Either way, I believe I have read that we are the #1 importer of CAN. syrup. Not really sure there is a whole lot of US packed syrup going back into Canada? I think what another poster commented, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. It would only help our prices, unless a tariff (tax) were to be imposed on CAN. bulk syrup coming in. In addition, many of the raw materials for evaporators and equipment come from the US. If there is a tax on these items, the price of finished Canadian equipment (which is the majority nowadays) will only go that much higher when it is returned to the States, so not a very enlightening situation here.

[maple flats]

Reading all of the info I have seen thus far it does indeed look like a 10% tariff in both directions over the US/Can border and a 25% tariff both ways on many raw materials, including SS an most other metals and finished equipment.
I think that will raise the bulk price here in the US by at least 10%.
Also think about cars and trucks, many of those are assembled in Canada with most parts made in the US, thus a truck or car assembled in Canada could have the cost to the consumer compounded. This might however be short lived until the US expands assembly capabilities here in the US. Any one looking at lets say an F350 4x4 might well see it's cost jump 35-50%. A $50,000 truck last week could jump to $75,000.

[Galena]

*Ahem* The US is imposing tariffs on Canada and Mexico first, and now you're whingeing cause Canada dares to retaliate by imposing tariffs on the US in turn? Yes, I also agree that it seems ridiculous that we're apparently imposing tariffs on maple syrup, but hey, whatever. You guys voted President Babyhands in.

[DrTimPerkins]

Not really sure there is a whole lot of US packed syrup going back into Canada?

Actually, as strange as it may seem, there has been some, and an increasing amount of maple syrup headed north. In Quebec, the rates are set (for syrup made in Quebec). In the U.S., the price is set by three factors: 1) Quebec price, 2) Currency Exchange Rate, and 3) Supply. #1 hasn't changed, #2 has a huge depressing effect on price, and #3, packers have been using the oversupply to keep U.S. prices even lower than what #1 and #2 would indicate. Currently about 80% of the U.S. price of syrup is dictated by #1 and #2 acting together, and is affected about 20% by #3. Until the recent price bump (due to a poor 2018 crop in Quebec), it was closer to 60:40. What this meant is that Quebec packers could actually buy maple syrup CHEAPER from the U.S. than from Quebec....and some did, particularly organic syrup. Obviously this did not please many folks in Quebec very much, and I suspect they lobbied hard for a tariff on U.S. maple syrup (as odd as that may seem). Given the fact that FAR more syrup comes south than goes north, they better hope that the U.S. doesn't decide to reciprocate with a tariff on Canadian syrup. That would sure upset things quite a bit.

[Haynes Forest Products]

First no one is whining we are only discussing current events. Second keep the name calling trolling out of this.

[ennismaple]

From what I've read Canada isn't the only country imposing tariffs on US goods in response to the aluminum and steel tariffs imposed on our goods. My understanding is the tariffs will in fact hurt US manufacturers as the states don't have enough domestic supply of aluminum and steel. Why maple syrup? No idea other than it's probably one of the line items that add up to the same total value as the US tariffs.

[markcasper]

Actually, as strange as it may seem, there has been some, and an increasing amount of maple syrup headed north. In Quebec, the rates are set (for syrup made in Quebec). In the U.S., the price is set by three factors: 1) Quebec price, 2) Currency Exchange Rate, and 3) Supply. #1 hasn't changed, #2 has a huge depressing effect on price, and #3, packers have been using the oversupply to keep U.S. prices even lower than what #1 and #2 would indicate. Currently about 80% of the U.S. price of syrup is dictated by #1 and #2 acting together, and is affected about 20% by #3. Until the recent price bump (due to a poor 2018 crop in Quebec), it was closer to 60:40. What this meant is that Quebec packers could actually buy maple syrup CHEAPER from the U.S. than from Quebec....and some did, particularly organic syrup. Obviously this did not please many folks in Quebec very much, and I suspect they lobbied hard for a tariff on U.S. maple syrup (as odd as that may seem). Given the fact that FAR more syrup comes south than goes north, they better hope that the U.S. doesn't decide to reciprocate with a tariff on Canadian syrup. That would sure upset things quite a bit.

Thanks for the explanation, Tim. I have been researching about tarriffs lately and have learned alot of good and bad things. From what I have been understanding is that building supplies have gone up considerbaly (30-40%) in this country since the tarriffs on Canadian softwood lumber have been imposed. I have not bought any building supplies lately, but is what I have been hearing from others. Good or bad for whomever, price hikes like that will ultimately stifle any growth of the ecomony IMO.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Mark I do agree that building materials have gone up in the Western red Cedar supply it sky rocketed up. I do fence repair and put up signs on Cedar posts and a 12 ft 6X6 post is over $100.00 for one post.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Anybody have any data yet on just how poor the 2018 crop was up there?

[Moser's Maple]

*Ahem* The US is imposing tariffs on Canada and Mexico first, and now you're whingeing cause Canada dares to retaliate by imposing tariffs on the US in turn? Yes, I also agree that it seems ridiculous that we're apparently imposing tariffs on maple syrup, but hey, whatever. You guys voted President Babyhands in.
Really galena?? You’re participating on a US based web forum, but now your going to bad mouth the US president??? What happened to keeping politics out of the discussions. Yeah yeah it’s a free country, but you don’t live in the country that phrase came from.
I have no ill will to our Canadian neighbors, just ill will to those that think they have a say in the US.
Phew....... rant over.

[DrTimPerkins]

Good or bad for whomever, price hikes like that will ultimately stifle any growth of the ecomony IMO.

Most likely you are correct.

[DrTimPerkins]

Anybody have any data yet on just how poor the 2018 crop was up there?

Official numbers have not yet been published, but it is in the range of a 20-25% reduction, although the losses were very unevenly distributed.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

*Ahem* The US is imposing tariffs on Canada and Mexico first, and now you're whingeing cause Canada dares to retaliate by imposing tariffs on the US in turn? Yes, I also agree that it seems ridiculous that we're apparently imposing tariffs on maple syrup, but hey, whatever. You guys voted President Babyhands in.ill do it again in 2020

[FDA]

ill do it again in 2020


No reason not to do it again!!!

[AirDave]

Quebec’s 2018 crop number circulating is 118 M lbs, down from 152 M last year.
My sources told me that no one in the Canadian maple industry was aware of those tariffs before they were made public by Trudeau yesterday. Never heard people asking for those tariffs either.

Tariffs are rarely a good thing for an industry... short term gain,long term pain...IMO

[Haynes Forest Products]

Just read that many Canadians were shocked when they found out that US syrup is sold in their country.

[Bruce L]

Sounds like a pi$@-/:ng war from school days. The U.S imposed tariffs against aluminum and steel,now our government is threatening to retaliate. We'll see how it plays out,President Trump is a bigger stronger player,better business man than the limp noodle that we are stuck with for another year

[OneLegJohn]

If Trump mirrors the tariff on Canadian maple syrup...that would suck for Canadian producers... he's non-political enough to do it. US maple syrup would jump to $3.50/lb and Canadian syrup would drop in value. It would destroy the Federation. Check and mate in one move. NY State has more maple trees than Quebec. I'm pretty sure Michigan and Wisconsin aren't far behind. It would be a good time to buy into maple equipment in the USA :)

I doubt it happens. Hard to predict geo-political moves. I'm pretty sure the move was to prevent Chinese steel being shipped to Canada and Mexico to avoid tariffs in the USA. Very similar to what happened in the honey market.

[heus]

Really galena?? You’re participating on a US based web forum, but now your going to bad mouth the US president??? What happened to keeping politics out of the discussions. Yeah yeah it’s a free country, but you don’t live in the country that phrase came from.
I have no ill will to our Canadian neighbors, just ill will to those that think they have a say in the US.
Phew....... rant over.

Well said Jake!

[heus]

ill do it again in 2020

Me too!!!!!!!!!

[heus]

If Trump mirrors the tariff on Canadian maple syrup...that would suck for Canadian producers... he's non-political enough to do it. US maple syrup would jump to $3.50/lb and Canadian syrup would drop in value. It would destroy the Federation. Check and mate in one move. NY State has more maple trees than Quebec. I'm pretty sure Michigan and Wisconsin aren't far behind. It would be a good time to buy into maple equipment in the USA :)

I doubt it happens. Hard to predict geo-political moves. I'm pretty sure the move was to prevent Chinese steel being shipped to Canada and Mexico to avoid tariffs in the USA. Very similar to what happened in the honey market.

Right on Nate!!

[Haynes Forest Products]

I'm just to dang ignorant to understand the why we need so much over seas aluminum and steel. Yea it takes time to gear up and we have more regulation here in the states..............and I believe in GOOD regulation just not some of the crazy things I hear about.

I go to the land fill about once a week and its a great source of entertainment watching people try and back up 50 ft between other trucks. Right up there with the boat launch on a Sunday afternoon when everyone is tired now to the point. All the recyclable that we pay to have collected to save the environment get mixed together and fed into a grinder that leaves you with a mountain of threaded glass, steel, plastic and aluminum. Its all bits and chunks all mixed together and they spread it out over the layer of clay they flood the area and a small barge is brought in to level it. So wonder why we don't just keep it here and use it. I understand that we take oil and make plastic and sell it to Israel and they make sprinkler parts and sell it back to us as a finished products and thats' fine I'm all for world economics but the under cutting needs to be challenged.

I like the phrase "What you tax you get less of What you subsidize you get more of"

[Michael Greer]

The mess with the recyclables gets even crazier that that! The big wast-handling companies in the US put all that mixed material onto ships and send it to China to be sorted and processed, and they sell it back to us. Lately there has been a news story about our zero-sort materials being too dirty with other trash, and the Chinese companies are turning it down and shipping it back, or shipping it some place like Bangladesh where it gets picked by hand by really unfortunate people. It was only a few years ago that folks sorted their own recyclables...

[maple flats]

In our county your trash gets refused if not sorted, and the bottles & can must be rinsed too. I just thought everywhere that was the norm. Must be I was wrong again.

[spud]

If Trump mirrors the tariff on Canadian maple syrup...that would suck for Canadian producers... he's non-political enough to do it. US maple syrup would jump to $3.50/lb and Canadian syrup would drop in value. It would destroy the Federation. Check and mate in one move. NY State has more maple trees than Quebec. I'm pretty sure Michigan and Wisconsin aren't far behind. It would be a good time to buy into maple equipment in the USA :)

I doubt it happens. Hard to predict geo-political moves. I'm pretty sure the move was to prevent Chinese steel being shipped to Canada and Mexico to avoid tariffs in the USA. Very similar to what happened in the honey market.


I always thought Canada blew us away in the amount of maple trees. Do they just have more taps but less trees?

Spud

[Moser's Maple]

I always thought Canada blew us away in the amount of maple trees. Do they just have more taps but less trees?

Spud
Pretty much Spud. Main problem in US unlike Canada us most govt owned land(fed or state) is untouchable. In the case of NY we have huge maple acres but they are located in the protected Adirondack Park.

[Galena]

I always thought Canada blew us away in the amount of maple trees. Do they just have more taps but less trees?

Spud

At a guess, there are a lot of maples in La Belle Province....but they also have the Federation to deal with. And that's as far as I'm going.

[CBOYER]

It is nice to read you starting a Maple war here, why did you accept Canadian on this American great Forum ?, ask to your Prs to remove "tapping Canada" as sonn as possible to prevent invasion...

Look at the list that Cnd. Gov. make to respond to US innaceptable Tariff on steel and Aluminium.
They make a list covering large number of different trades to wake you up that it is innaceptable. Adding Maple Syrup there is so small money involve, it is there as a "Canadian Icon"
First your Pres. reduce incomes taxes of big companies, after they put tariff that make YOUR everyday purchases higher... It is a way to taxes consumers.

For your information:

World aluminium production:

Usa 1.5%
Canada 6%
China 54%

Alcoa (Aluminum Company of America ) in Canada

I think that 1/3 of Alcoa aluminium is produce in Canada, it is a good thing for Usa to apply tariff on an American Company...

In Canada Alcoa has more than 3,700 employees in 10 plant locations, primarily in Québec. In addition to its primary aluminum operations in Québec, Alcoa manufactures aluminum components for the aerospace industry and offers a wide range of architectural systems for the construction industry.

In Québec the smelters in Baie Comeau, Bécancour and Deschambault have an annual production capacity of more than one million metric tons of ingots, rolling ingots, billets and aluminum rod. The quality and environmental management systems at all three plants are certified to ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 14001:2004.

[Louie]

https://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/fia/maps/volume-species/descr/s318.jpg
Map of US maple distribution. The UP of Michigan has lots of untapped trees.

[Tigermaple]

"Map of US maple distribution. The UP of Michigan has lots of untapped trees"

The map is outdated or just incorrect. The area I live in is almost exclusively sugar maple (75%+) from the crown to the saplings. Your map shows us as >9.9.

[Louie]

I have been to the UP looking for a sugarbush and it is incredible but logging is the main income. From what I had read the UP has more maple trees than Vermont. Big syrup production would probably never happen since they are building a wood ethanol plant and already run a power plant with chips. It is the new green renewable energy.

[BAP]

It is nice to read you starting a Maple war here, why did you accept Canadian on this American great Forum ?, ask to your Prs to remove "tapping Canada" as sonn as possible to prevent invasion...

Look at the list that Cnd. Gov. make to respond to US innaceptable Tariff on steel and Aluminium.
They make a list covering large number of different trades to wake you up that it is innaceptable. Adding Maple Syrup there is so small money involve, it is there as a "Canadian Icon"
First your Pres. reduce incomes taxes of big companies, after they put tariff that make YOUR everyday purchases higher... It is a way to taxes consumers.

For your information:

World aluminium production:

Usa 1.5%
Canada 6%
China 54%

Alcoa (Aluminum Company of America ) in Canada

I think that 1/3 of Alcoa aluminium is produce in Canada, it is a good thing for Usa to apply tariff on an American Company...

In Canada Alcoa has more than 3,700 employees in 10 plant locations, primarily in Québec. In addition to its primary aluminum operations in Québec, Alcoa manufactures aluminum components for the aerospace industry and offers a wide range of architectural systems for the construction industry.

In Québec the smelters in Baie Comeau, Bécancour and Deschambault have an annual production capacity of more than one million metric tons of ingots, rolling ingots, billets and aluminum rod. The quality and environmental management systems at all three plants are certified to ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 14001:2004.
What does Aluminum production have to do with the discussion about Maple Tariff? The OP asked why Canada would need to impose tariff's on Maple if they are the largest producers.

[CBOYER]

What does Aluminum production have to do with the discussion about Maple Tariff? The OP asked why Canada would need to impose tariff's on Maple if they are the largest producers.

This is a big part of the problem, asking question when the answer is in thread #4

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?33076-A-trade-war-a-come-in&p=357290#post357290

[CBOYER]

adding to this, 90% of Canadian Aluminium is produced in Quebec, same as Maple syrup...

[buckeye gold]

I doubt that maple syrup will be much of a player in this whole scenario......It may affect our pricing, but I doubt it drives anyone out of business. It's just like a big card game no one knows who wins until all the hands our played and we see who finishes with the most chips......of course a lot of people have ended up in bad shape over hurt feelings in a card game. i don't care about aluminum or any other commodities as a discussion on this forum.

If and when it affects the cost of my supplies for Maple I'll do the figuring and decide what I'm going to do then. I would bet it will be very little difference.

So count me in the camp of let's keep this a maple discussion.....period

[CBOYER]

So count me in the camp of let's keep this a maple discussion.....period

How could i explain you... IF USA remove 10% tariff on Canadian aluminium, Canada will remove 10% tariff on Maple Syrup, it is a maple discussion.....Period

[maple flats]

Keep this discussion civil! I don't want to need to edit or close the thread.

[FDA]

Keep this discussion civil! I don't want to need to edit or close the thread.

That's why politics are banned from this and many other forums. Its just like bringing back banned members.... Murphy's law!

[markcasper]

NY State has more maple trees than Quebec. I'm pretty sure Michigan and Wisconsin aren't far behind. It would be a good time to buy into maple equipment in the USA :)


I have always heard that if Wisconsin tapped more of the trees it'd easily be the #1 producer in the nation. Whether or not that would be true I don't know? Going off that one map, we wouldn't have barely any maple trees where I am, and I am surrounded. Quebec may have alot of taps, but I don't think their production per tap can compete because of being so far north. There is one dude on here from north of Duluth, MN and if they get one quart per tap with vacuum they think they have a very god year, where I would consider that dismal. The main reason again is too far north, doesn't matter as much on the number of taps if they won't perform.

[Michael Greer]

Another little thing that those near the border should keep in mind is that any time there is a trade dispute between the US and Canada, the border agents (on both sides) become kind of prickly...asking lots of un-necessary questions, being extra invasive, and slowing the crossing process...as though the individual citizen in the car has ANYTHING to do with the trade discussions. If you're going across, leave extra time.

[OneLegJohn]

Is there a way to have a microeconomic and macroeconomic discussion without pushing partisan politics? I think so. (Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts.) One of the primary factors in economics is government influence. In fact, I don't think too many would argue that the Federation, a government supported entity, doesn't impact the maple industry. However, this is such a complex multi-variable equation to figure out. It is when opinions of "right" and "wrong" enter the discussion that makes it hard to tolerate.

Simply put, a Government - Canada - has countermeasured USA Steel and Aluminum tariffs with a maple syrup tariff (link below). That "political move" by a government can affect the industry if it comes to fruition.

In 2017, 62% of Canada's maple syrup was exported to the USA. So I do think that it was a shock to almost everyone that bulk US maple syrup was being shipped to Canada. So when I read Justin Trudeau's proposed counter tariff list and maple syrup was on the list - it made me think. (One can easily go out of business trying to predict the future!). If the USA matched Canada's maple syrup tariff it would definitely have an impact on the maple industry. I'm not a political pundit, but if the maple syrup tariff were reciprocated it would be a shock to the maple industry.

Item 1702.20 in the list on the link below:
https://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/consult/cacsap-cmpcaa-eng.asp

It is hard to read this current event and not have an opinion on what is happening. But, if we want to stay in business - we should look at facts and try not to be emotional about it. React to facts, not opinion. So my challenge to everyone on this thread, is can we keep it going without interjecting opinions? (I'm as guilty as anyone) Because I do think this is an important current event that we should be discussing and keeping each other posted.

[maple flats]

For now it can keep going. The decision will solely be based on whether any posts start to bad mouth leaders on either side, not just actions but using names that they might think are cute when referring to any particular politician.
This discussion must remain on the maple side and not the political side or it will be deleted.

[GeneralStark]

If Trump mirrors the tariff on Canadian maple syrup...that would suck for Canadian producers... he's non-political enough to do it. US maple syrup would jump to $3.50/lb and Canadian syrup would drop in value. It would destroy the Federation. Check and mate in one move. NY State has more maple trees than Quebec. I'm pretty sure Michigan and Wisconsin aren't far behind. It would be a good time to buy into maple equipment in the USA :)

It would appear that those that support tariffs on Canadian maple syrup imports seem to be thinking that this would drive up the syrup price paid to US producers. The question is, is there any evidence to support that hypothesis, or is it all rhetoric?

All we have seen in the softwood lumber industry as a result of tariffs on Canadian lumber are some slight increases in US mill production, but because we demand more lumber than can be domestically supplied, higher lumber prices have been the ultimate result. These prices have been swallowed by builders or passed on to the consumer.

It seems likely that imports on Canadian syrup would likely just drive up costs to the consumer, especially initially. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Hard to say as tariffs often have a multi faceted impact throughout the economy which may benefit some but hurt others.

[GeneralStark]

Is there a way to have a microeconomic and macroeconomic discussion without pushing partisan politics?

I think so too. Tariffs are one issue that indicate may perspectives and ideologies in political and economic realms. The fact that traditionally conservative "free market" groups like the Heritage Foundation have come out against tariffs is indicative of this variety of perspective.

For now it seems to me that these tariffs are more political than anything and are just an attempt to feed the base that likes tough talk some red meat...

[markcasper]

It would appear that those that support tariffs on Canadian maple syrup imports seem to be thinking that this would drive up the syrup price paid to US producers. The question is, is there any evidence to support that hypothesis, or is it all rhetoric?

All we have seen in the softwood lumber industry as a result of tariffs on Canadian lumber are some slight increases in US mill production, but because we demand more lumber than can be domestically supplied, higher lumber prices have been the ultimate result. These prices have been swallowed by builders or passed on to the consumer.

It seems likely that imports on Canadian syrup would likely just drive up costs to the consumer, especially initially. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Hard to say as tariffs often have a multi faceted impact throughout the economy which may benefit some but hurt others.

Whether right or wrong for either side. Speaking of the commodities market, maple syrup included, the farmer ends up being the one most screwed. Screw the farmer is and has been the norm all of my life.

[minehart gap]

Is there any information available about what the Canadian government is planning to do with the funds generated from the tariff?

I recall a pole on here last year where Dr. Tim asked if tariffs should be imposed to fund market research and a lot of people said yes. If our friends north of the border do this, couldn't that help us all. I may just be wishful thinking.

[johnallin]

Simply put, a Government - Canada - has countermeasured USA Steel and Aluminum tariffs with a maple syrup tariff (link below). That "political move" by a government can affect the industry if it comes to fruition.

In 2017, 62% of Canada's maple syrup was exported to the USA. .... If the USA matched Canada's maple syrup tariff it would definitely have an impact on the maple industry. I'm not a political pundit, but if the maple syrup tariff were reciprocated it would be a shock to the maple industry.....

If Canada exports 62% of its Maple crop to the USA- a 10% tariff would benefit all USA producers of Maple...that's the intent of tariffs and I agree it would be a ground shaking event. Providing some of the "big boys" can ramp up production to meet the new demand; I can't imagine it having an adverse effect on bulk or retail pricing.
Can't say I blame Canada for retaliating over aluminum and steel tariffs, but Trudeau over-reacted a tad when he added agricultural product to the mix.

[GeneralStark]

If Canada exports 62% of its Maple crop to the USA- a 10% tariff would benefit all USA producers of Maple...that's the intent of tariffs and I agree it would be a ground shaking event. Providing some of the "big boys" can ramp up production to meet the new demand; I can't imagine it having an adverse effect on bulk or retail pricing.

But the question is, who consumes the Canadian syrup that is imported to the US? Some of it ends up on grocery store shelves but much of it ends up as an ingredient in other products. Will the US producers of food products that use Canadian syrup as an ingredient be willing to pay higher prices? Will that added cost be passed on to the consumer, or will they look for other sweeteners to use? Will the increased cost lead to a decline in demand and then a drop in price due to oversupply?

I think the assumption that tariffs will automatically drive up the price to producers is flawed. Where is the evidence to support this?

And, how quickly would the US maple industry be able to respond to this sudden increase in demand for domestic syrup? 62% of Canada's crop is quite a bit of syrup...

[GeneralStark]

Whether right or wrong for either side. Speaking of the commodities market, maple syrup included, the farmer ends up being the one most screwed. Screw the farmer is and has been the norm all of my life.

So then you disagree with the idea that tariffs on Canadian syrup will be good for US Maple Farmers?

[markcasper]

So then you disagree with the idea that tariffs on Canadian syrup will be good for US Maple Farmers?

It would probably raise prices short term, but then either a.) Production will ramp up in the US which will lead to a surplus, thus dropping prices. b.) As prices rise due to the tax/tariff, end users will cut back and they find something cheaper to use. It would most likely be a combination of the two. In all honesty, the price of syrup is too high on the store shelf. The majority is marketed through the big packers and they have made out like a bandit the past several years. How can the price go from $2.60 /lb. bulk down to $2.00 /lb. and the advertised price on packers websites never went down accordingly?

It would be great if it actually worked and Quebec could stick their syrup in the ocean. There is such an attitude up there it is pathetic! (The non language change with the rest of their country is one example.) 10 years ago we vacationed in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba and practically everyone shook their head when I started talking maple and Quebec, it appears most of Canada would rather do without them.

It seems it is that way with any commodity coming off a farm. You always get some big guys that know how to leverage and get the most government money. As well, how can some file bankruptcy two and three times and come out stronger every time? Really baffles me!

I have a suspicion that somehow, someway US maple farmers will take it in the knees in the end. That is to say nothing what the price of equipment is going to be after all of this.

There is an old saying that goes "The farmer is the only one that buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."

[OneLegJohn]

This is really interesting discussion. For those that are looking for proof on the 62% statement:

http://www.agr.gc.ca/eng/industry-markets-and-trade/market-information-by-sector/horticulture/horticulture-sector-reports/statistical-overview-of-the-canadian-maple-industry-2017/?id=1524607854094

Image from the website.18678

[OneLegJohn]

Another article from Reuters. This article claims that the syrup shipped from the USA to CAN is 75% from Maine.

"The list also includes a 10 percent duty on maple sugar and syrup. In 2017, Canada imported C$16.9 million ($13.1 million)worth of those goods, three-quarters of which came from Maine."

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1J02MS

[Mark]

Another article from Reuters. This article claims that the syrup shipped from the USA to CAN is 75% from Maine.

"The list also includes a 10 percent duty on maple sugar and syrup. In 2017, Canada imported C$16.9 million ($13.1 million)worth of those goods, three-quarters of which came from Maine."

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1J02MS

The three-quarters that came from Maine are probably Canadian producers. I was on a tour in the golden road area and most stops were French speaking Canadians that were leasing land. The Canadian import tariff would actually be on Canadians.

[spud]

It would probably raise prices short term, but then either a.) Production will ramp up in the US which will lead to a surplus, thus dropping prices. b.) As prices rise due to the tax/tariff, end users will cut back and they find something cheaper to use. It would most likely be a combination of the two. In all honesty, the price of syrup is too high on the store shelf. The majority is marketed through the big packers and they have made out like a bandit the past several years. How can the price go from $2.60 /lb. bulk down to $2.00 /lb. and the advertised price on packers websites never went down accordingly?

It would be great if it actually worked and Quebec could stick their syrup in the ocean. There is such an attitude up there it is pathetic! (The non language change with the rest of their country is one example.) 10 years ago we vacationed in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba and practically everyone shook their head when I started talking maple and Quebec, it appears most of Canada would rather do without them.

It seems it is that way with any commodity coming off a farm. You always get some big guys that know how to leverage and get the most government money. As well, how can some file bankruptcy two and three times and come out stronger every time? Really baffles me!

I have a suspicion that somehow, someway US maple farmers will take it in the knees in the end. That is to say nothing what the price of equipment is going to be after all of this.

There is an old saying that goes "The farmer is the only one that buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."


Although the retail price of syrup has not dropped in our local stores it has dropped in the big box stores. There is nothing wrong with the Quebec people being proud of their little piece of paradise. If we were producing 75% of all the maple syrup worldwide then we may think a little too highly of ourselves also. The American people are to blame for the amount of Canada syrup entering USA. It's in all our stores because we buy it. If you step outside of our little north/east maple world the average American could care less where their syrup comes from. Most don't even care if it's real syrup. Some will say if they could just try the real stuff they would never buy the fake again. I wish that was true but it's not. I know several people that hate the real stuff. A person tends to consume what they were brought up on consuming. We are passionate about our REAL maple syrup but the rest of the world is not. The only real way of seeing who is KING of maple is for us to stop buying maple from Canada and Canada stop buying Maple from the USA. USA packers should only buy USA syrup and market it that way. They should not be allowed to buy or sell Canada syrup. The same should apply to Canada. If this happened then we could expand our tap count to what it needs to be to supply our packers and stores. We will either make it on our own or not.

Spud

[Haynes Forest Products]

Spud I like your point. The average person doesn't care where their syrup comes from, who made it or what country. Heck have breakfast at IHOP and listen to what happens if the average person asks the average server if they have some maple syrup they will bring out the rack of 6 different flavored bottles and the feeding frenzy will begin. Now changing that is up for a different thread.

Like crude oil, corn, wheat, maple syrup is FUNGIBLE and 99.9% of the people in the US and Canada wake up every day and go to work and could give a rats behind about the headline I was reading in a small news blip. Maybe just the mere fact that it got a little attention might interest some people but it won't rock the maple syrup world. If the orice goes up it might send the fence sitters back to Gelatinous corn sugar.

This tit for tat headline grabbing back and forth between the heads of two neighbor contrary's will fade away until the next big news cycle. I think it will have the same impact as your mother threatening to stop cooking dinner until everyone in the house starts picking up their crap from around the house and you start to respect her and her audience is 3 teen age kids. Problem is in today's world the kids get 3/4 of their meals from outside the house anyway so they could care less about some idle threat.

[DrTimPerkins]

Heck have breakfast at IHOP and listen to what happens if the average person asks the average server if they have some maple syrup they will bring out the rack of 6 different flavored bottles and the feeding frenzy will begin. Now changing that is up for a different thread.

Except in Vermont, where REAL maple syrup is available at IHOP. :D

That earlier thread about the poll someone mentioned is at http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?30847-Maple-Marketing-Tools-Poll&highlight=tariff

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK folks no cheating on this one or looking at your neighbors paper.

If the price of wholesale maple syrup was locked it at $2.00 per lb for the two top grades without the possibility of ever changing. How many of us would.

1) quit producing
2) just sell the sap to someone else
3) burn the place down and call your insurance company
4) get more efficient
5) go back to the good old days
6) Expand and produce more.


I have heard from a few guys that are packing it in not because of price but it was a crap year.

[maple flats]

This thread is now going well, thank you all for dropping any political aspects, well done. Lots of valid points and questions with appropriate discourse.

[jmayerl]

I would .....#6 expand! Low bulk means NOTHING to many of us that actually have a customer base and sell syrup. I can't find enough trees or land to supply everyone. I have been pushed by my sellers to expand constantly. I could sell 8-10 times what I do right now if I had the sap to make it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dave can I get you to separate this last post of mine into its own thread I screwed up trying to start a new thread. :mad:

[spud]

I would .....#6 expand! Low bulk means NOTHING to many of us that actually have a customer base and sell syrup. I can't find enough trees or land to supply everyone. I have been pushed by my sellers to expand constantly. I could sell 8-10 times what I do right now if I had the sap to make it.

You don't need more sap. Just go buy the syrup you need to expand your sales base. The beauty of buying the syrup is you pick what you like and the flavor you like.

Spud

[spud]

I would keep doing just what I do now and that is sell sap. The price could drop to $1.00 per LB and i would still sell sap. I make $50-60,000 per year selling sap. Even if I made half that i would be doing great.

Spud

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I would .....#6 expand! Low bulk means NOTHING to many of us that actually have a customer base and sell syrup. I can't find enough trees or land to supply everyone. I have been pushed by my sellers to expand constantly. I could sell 8-10 times what I do right now if I had the sap to make it.

Sounds like you ought to buy a few barrels and fill your supply then. Low bulk means you make money. I hear this all the time, some are truthful about it and others are not. We need to get more syrup out there so get to it if you're being honest with yourself!!

[maple flats]

There's nothing wrong with buying bulk and packing it retail. Just taste test it to be sure it is a flavor equal to or very similar to what you make. Different soils give different tastes. I find that works best if you buy from a local producer who's sugar bush is similar to yours.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I would love to have sap delivered to my shack all day long. On a great day I collect 3-35 hundred gallons sap and can process it in 4 hrs no problem I would love to get a steady supply of fresh sap 10,000 per day and let the improvements begin.

[Russell Lampron]

OK folks no cheating on this one or looking at your neighbors paper.

If the price of wholesale maple syrup was locked it at $2.00 per lb for the two top grades without the possibility of ever changing. How many of us would.

1) quit producing
2) just sell the sap to someone else
3) burn the place down and call your insurance company
4) get more efficient
5) go back to the good old days
6) Expand and produce more.


I have heard from a few guys that are packing it in not because of price but it was a crap year.

I guess I would have to go with #6. I would work on expanding my retail sales and perfecting my candy making skills. As the need arose I would then add more taps to produce more syrup.

[spud]

I would love to have sap delivered to my shack all day long. On a great day I collect 3-35 hundred gallons sap and can process it in 4 hrs no problem I would love to get a steady supply of fresh sap 10,000 per day and let the improvements begin.

If you were willing to pay 65% you may just get the 10,000 gallons you want. People would be more likely to set up their woods if they knew they would get paid a fair price.

Spud

[GeneralStark]

The American people are to blame for the amount of Canada syrup entering USA. The only real way of seeing who is KING of maple is for us to stop buying maple from Canada and Canada stop buying Maple from the USA. USA packers should only buy USA syrup and market it that way. They should not be allowed to buy or sell Canada syrup. The same should apply to Canada. If this happened then we could expand our tap count to what it needs to be to supply our packers and stores. We will either make it on our own or not.
Spud

Blaming the American people for wanting maple syrup or products made with it? Interesting...

Once again, 62% of Canada's crop is imported to the US. Is it even possible that the US maple industry could easily supply that much more syrup? Some US syrup does go north, but if we were to just suddenly stop trade with Canada (why would we do that?), do you really think that the US could meet the domestic demand for maple syrup?

For Vermont, stopping all trade with Canada would be disastrous. 40% of our exports go to Canada. Almost 40% of our electricity comes from Quebec.

Is there really a movement out there to demand maple syrup imports from Canada be stopped or to force packers to only buy US syrup?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Not by me. I believe if you are supplying a demand and its by free will then keep your hands off my money and labor. Do special interests play a part in all this absolutely for good and bad but don't play fast and loose with my business. I'm not your pawn!!

[CBOYER]

Does someone know final destination of imported syrup ?

it is all for US consumer or imported for packing/add ingredient and sold outside of USA ?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Johnsonville brats are made in Wisconsin and brag that they use Vermont maple syrup. What is Canadian bacon. I understand using well branded names because its good for your brand to link with another good brand.

[Mark]

Does someone know final destination of imported syrup ?

it is all for US consumer or imported for packing/add ingredient and sold outside of USA ?

Most stores I sell syrup in carries other brands that say product of Canada. For example Field Day brand of syrup says product of Canada and USA. I bet a lot of Canadian syrup gets blended with US syrup, you couldn't do that in Vermont but other states probably don't care. Several years ago just for curiosity I ask my inspector about the blending other syrup and labeling and he didn't care how it was labeled. His answer was if it said Michigan it had to have some Michigan syrup in it.

[Russell Lampron]

Does someone know final destination of imported syrup ?

it is all for US consumer or imported for packing/add ingredient and sold outside of USA ?

Bascom's turns most of it into granulated sugar and it's shipped all over the world from there. A lot of it goes to Japan and other Asian countries.

[spud]

Blaming the American people for wanting maple syrup or products made with it? Interesting...

Once again, 62% of Canada's crop is imported to the US. Is it even possible that the US maple industry could easily supply that much more syrup? Some US syrup does go north, but if we were to just suddenly stop trade with Canada (why would we do that?), do you really think that the US could meet the domestic demand for maple syrup?

For Vermont, stopping all trade with Canada would be disastrous. 40% of our exports go to Canada. Almost 40% of our electricity comes from Quebec.

General I think your misunderstanding what i'm saying. I support trade with Canada. I would never support stopping that. It is 100% the Americans fault for allowing 62% of Canada syrup into the USA. America may have the maple trees to supply all it's maple demands. What America does not have is the desire to do that. No USA and Canada syrup should ever be blended and sold on store shelves. If a packer wants to sell syrup to a store then American syrup should be in one jug and Canadian syrup should be in a different jug. Both jugs should state where the syrup is made. If the syrup was made in USA then it should have to say the state it was made in. A person cannot sell their New York syrup as Vermont syrup to a packer. Although A packer can sell any state syrup as USA syrup. This happens all the time.

I made a comment in another post about who is the ( King of Maple ). We all know Canada is the King. They are way ahead of us in maple production. The only way for USA to find out if they could ever be the new King is to only sell USA syrup worldwide and let Canada only sell their syrup worldwide. The one with the biggest market ( using their own syrup )would be King. America would have to add millions of taps to compete with Canada. Canada takes great pride in their maple industry. Canada makes outstanding quality maple syrup and it would be hard for anyone in the USA to say theirs is better. What I don't like is when our friends north of the border are looked down on. I think it's disrespectful to our Canada Traders.

We could never suddenly stop buying syrup from Canada nor do I suggest we do so. What I am saying is USA may have the ability just not the desire.

Is there really a movement out there to demand maple syrup imports from Canada be stopped or to force packers to only buy US syrup? There is no such movement that I am aware of but some would love to see that happen. Right now USA needs to buy syrup north of the border but I think it's wrong to blend it.

Spud

[Haynes Forest Products]

Blending is a new twist to the puzzle. Now blending 25% Vermont syrup with 75% Wisconsin could only help the Vermont stuff......................Just kidding. But if you blend 100% pure maple syrup from 3 different producers and then blend it with 3 different states and sell it at that farmers market in Idaho and advertise it as 100% pure maple syrup bottled in Arizona is that a problem. I don't care if it sells and its all truthful screw it.

[TheMapleMoose]

Since the steel, aluminum, and softwood lumber tariffs, building materials have skyrocketed. Does this mean that our rebar now comes from the US? Nope, still stamped "canada" or "china" or "turkey", we are just paying 50% more for it. Same with lumber and sheathing right now. We don't see an increase in the amount of US made products as a result of tariff, just higher prices on the same stuff we've always been supplied with. All that has really happened, is that a major price increase has trickled down to the end user. The consumer. Building a house this year will cost you 10% more than last year. Our suppliers don't want to lose any profit margin, neither does the producer, and neither do I, so ultimately, the final product ends up costing more. I'd like to tell you we are at least using more US made materials as a result, but its just not true. All the tariffs have seem to have done, is raise the market price, for a product regardless of origin. Why would a US producer want to take less money than a buyer could buy from Canada +tariff? I wouldn't. So the steel still comes from Canada, everybody just makes a little more money on it...except maybe the guy who made it.

So in the reverse: If US syrup is $2.00 + a 10% tariff, then the market price is now $2.20 for a canadian buyer- wouldn't this benefit Canadian producers?

It is obviously more complicated than that, but this has been the exact affect on us as building contractors as a result of the tariffs.

[spud]

I think America may have enough maple trees to supply all the USA packers with what they need. What we are lacking is the desire to do that. There are many reasons for that lack of desire. There are millions of untapped Maple trees here in Vermont let alone the other states. I am not suggesting we need to be the new King of the maple industry. I am more then happy to see Canada have that crown. I personally have no desire to add more taps to my operation. I do think at times disrespect is shown to our Canada Traders. I personally would like to see more Canadians on this site. Some comments are not so inviting for that to happen.

Spud

[CBOYER]

TheMapleMoose, you got it right. end user (consumer) pay more, so tariff is a disguised tax to put money in the Government pockets.

Canada produce steel with Canadian iron ore, aluminium with Québec Hydro-electricity. Cost of living is similar in Canada than Usa. If Usa stop producing steel and aluminium, it is because high energy prices or not environment friendly coal used.

Remember that tariff proposed on Maple syrup imports are i think highly symbolic thinking that Québec produced 90% of Canadian aluminium and 91.8% of Canadian Maple Syrup

[ennismaple]

I do think at times disrespect is shown to our Canada Traders. I personally would like to see more Canadians on this site. Some comments are not so inviting for that to happen.
Well said Spud. The only difference between maple producers north and south of the border is which passport we carry. We need to celebrate our commonalities and not highlight our differences.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

I may be way off topic, but prices can be affected by other than tariffs. A very major ice storm could cause price increases.

On the some mention of soft woods,,,, Down here in Missouri, (I do make a few gallons,,, 20-30 gallons of maple syrup). Softwood prices, especially plywood prices are major impacted by hurricanes. A major hurricane and plywood goes up 50% or more and lumber 10-20% and I'm 500 miles or more from where the hurricane hit.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The first rule of any transaction is supply and demand. Shortages cause supply's to dwindle and demand drives up prices.

[ToadHill]

You're correct Haynes, but it also works in reverse. As prices rise demand drops. While a tariff may benefit us in the US in the short run by reducing the flow of Canadian syrup into the US and allowing us to sell more of ours for a better price, it will eventually catch up to all of us in the long run. I only see this as a temporary benefit for a few of us. In the long run the overall industry will suffer. All of this is just my opinion as I am not an economist. :)

[Haynes Forest Products]

Toadhill I agree that one begets the other its the Ying Yang the give and take and when your neighbor down the road runs out of syrup and he see's your sign you might just have just got a new customer for life.......until you run out. There is so much cause and effect in this sport of sugar making. Its like the real estate market along with the appraisers that pig pile on. In Parker things are so hot that established reaetors cant find listings to show because of all the people that are getting into the business and social media. Things are running at light speed and a guy/girl can buy a rig that will make good syrup and enter the market to cause trouble for his neighbor.

[OneLegJohn]

"Name one rich economist."

-Warren Buffet

[3GoatHill]

I think a lot of us forget that maple is a luxury item. Except for us and a few hardcore foodies, most people don't give much thought about it. The whole supply and demand thing doesn't mean much for luxury items. When prices of other, more necessary things rise, which they will, demand for maple will decline. My opinion, I'm no economist either.

[n8hutch]

The reason everything is made overseas cheaper is that they don't/aren't playing bye the same rules, working conditions are a joke in many of these countries and workplace Safety is an afterthought, then you factor in the lack of concern for the environment and you have a perfect storm.never mind the Red Tape when you try to actually do something in this country and oh yeah the Taxes.You could have a 50% Tarrif and most things would probably still be built overseas. A 10% Tarrif is just a way of the Government saying that they are doing Something.

I don't think much is really going to change.

[Haynes Forest Products]

What makes this situation unique is that only the US and Canada can battle this one out. Could you imagine if China or Brazil had the trees to produce syrup.

[220 maple]

I have been waiting on the this thread to come to it's eventual end, I like to add some humor with the last post!
I reference a quote from the classic comedy Canadian Bacon, starring Canadian Actor John Candy (deceased)
" If they don't stop pronto, we're going to bomb Toronto" All because of the flooding of America with Canadian Maple Syrup

Mark 220 Maple

[markcasper]

I have been waiting on the this thread to come to it's eventual end
Mark 220 Maple

I don't think it will end, it is just getting started. Will have to admit, have had alot of mixed emotions about the whole tariff issue. Pretty sad though, this country has been gutted of its industrial manufacturing power, and there is going to have to be a fair amount of pain to turn the ship around.

[billschi]

This thread has been an eye opener for me. Being a new guy in making maple syrup, 3 years ago I was happy as can be to be able to make syrup and finding out I can make my own sugar. Prior to finding this forum this year, it never occurred to me there were operations that were tapping 1000's of trees. I had no idea maple syrup had a position on the world stage. My wife and I have a table at the local farmer's market and there are 2 other syrup makers that sell there. That's already enough competition for me to make maple sugar to separate myself from the other two sellers to make me stand out. That alone allowed me to out sell the guy up here with his big RO set up. We had to restrict our syrup sales to selling 8 oz bottles this year and mostly selling maple sugar because of our poor season. My wife and I tried a new farmer's market 2 weeks ago and a gentleman was selling his syrup in 5-10 oz fancy bottles for $1-2/oz. He had many 'flavors'. Regular, cinnamon, ginger, hot, and super hot among others. He found a way to avoid competition in our small MN syrup market.
I can't imagine the amount of work you guys have to go through to sell your syrup at $2/lb let alone all the regulations that you need to follow. My hat's off to all of you.

[Haynes Forest Products]

bill the reality is its just as easy to make $2.00 a lb as $4.00 its just you tend to slip and slide in the pool of tears when you see it go down the road. But a lot of us agreed we would still make as much as possible if it stayed this way.

[maple flats]

At $2/lb retail every producer would be out of business. Few can make it efficiently enough to show a profit at $2/lb bulk, I certainly don't, that is why I sell it all retail, except if I make any that is commercial grade.

[heus]

Msyelf, I am either done or will be just making enough to provide for my family and friends.

[hookhill]

Hopefully this trade war will net a better bulk price. We buy all our sap and sell bulk. After expenses we probably net $8-9 per gallon. This season we made 670 gallons. So in the end we made around 5k. To some that sounds bad. To us it is extra money that was made during a cloudy, cold, grey, deep snow part of the year when there is not much else to do. The the thing that hurts the most is cutting and stacking all the wood. That eats up a good many hours. If you could retail 670 gallons at $50 gallon thats $23k after expenses but is a whole lot more work. There is no way I am going to sit at a farmers market on a nice summer day!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Hookhill As they say time is money. I might be hijacking my own thread. You mentioned that the worst part is the fuel/firewood processing. I know you have thought about oil and still think wood is better? Now that I concentrate to the 14-18% depending on my mood and amount of sap I have oil for the 350 gallon of syrup season is around $1000.00.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

let the trade war start maga/kag!!!!

[ToadHill]

Let’s keep this thread nonpolitical or let’s kill it.

[DrTimPerkins]

let the trade war start XXXXXXX!!!!

Final warning folks....NO politics.

[Amber Gold]

This has been an interesting read, so I'd hate to see the thread taken down. Is there a way to delete a post and not the entire thread?