Developing a remote tank level monitor

[coach]

Is the market for remote tank monitors already well developed?

I'm considering building a cellular device that would allow you to check the sap level of your barrels remotely from your cell phone. Or perhaps have it send you a text when it's at 80% full, 85%, and so on. Or a guy could have a phone app to check stuff like level, flow rate, temps, etc. It would need cell service at the tank. Cost to run it would be something like a $10 a month texting plan.

What I'm thinking of is simple to set up, be reliable and cost around $100. If there is something like this already on the market, what cost is it?

[BAP]

How reliable would it be with no cell service or extremely poor cell service?

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK DIY guys buy a Orbit wifi smart phone 12 station sprinkler clock that will turn on and off 24 volt circuits at the touch of a button and gets some relays and get to work.

[coach]

How reliable would it be with no cell service or extremely poor cell service?

It would require cell service in order to work. In the cases where service is intermittent, it could be programmed to send info once a connection is established.

I don't know the price of satellite service, but that could be done too.

[Tweegs]

My system uses a micro controller out in the shack. A verity of sensors are used by the micro to gather data which is then posted to a locally hosted server. Software on the client computers (one in the house, one in the shack) interpret the data and display it in more meaningful terms, like on gauges and graphs. For remote monitoring, I can log into one of the client computers using a desktop sharing program like “Team Viewer”.
That’s a very brief summary of how I do it.

One of the most difficult obstacles I had to overcome was tank level monitoring.
It seems like a simple, straight forward process, and it would be…if it weren’t for the ice.
My experience taught me that the cheap ultrasonic sensors won’t survive the climate above a tank for more than a few days, however, the waterproof sensors did fare somewhat better. Regardless, ultrasonic, capacitive and resistor/float methods will all suffer from inaccurate measurements due to ice formation in the tank. Additionally, if an ultrasonic sensor is used, it must be one of high quality. The cheap sensors will occasionally miss an echo, perhaps because the tank is at a fill level that has caused it to become resonant at the pulse frequency, or maybe it was just a glitch in the code, but if it does miss an echo, it will wait indefinitely for another one and hang the code. Nothing, in my opinion, would irritate a customer more than to have to trot out there and reboot a node because it locked up.

Measuring differential pressure was a way around the ice issue but came with its own set of problems.
Differential pressure sensors are temperamental. They don’t like changes in temperature and neither do the necessary amplifier circuits. They should be heated. Heating of the components is a power drain that would make battery operated monitoring untenable, as in a remote application.

Not trying to shoot down the idea, just sharing some of my experiences as food for thought.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I agree with tweegs on a few items. Now it was mentioned that being out of range of the mother unit can be a problem. On my CDL sensors they all communicate with each other and they set up a web of communication like a cell tower. The more sensors the better they talk. I have 2 remote tanks that are 500 ft from each other and they will bridge the distance and also extend the distance of the end line units.

I have the sensors that can be out in the weather and they were fine they also have solar panels on them to keep the battery charged and I could have put a zip-loc over it to help with ice and snow but as I said it ain't easy being mine.

Ice in my tank only happened after sun down so I would either pump out to ZERO or leave it till morning but keep a mental note about what it was before shut down. I also found that keeping 100 gallons in the cage tank kept the ice from forming to heavy a block or freezing the drain closed. My only problem with my set up was with a faulty hotspot and calling teck support at 9:00 PM and getting India on the line. Try explaining what your doing and how important it is to "BOB" over in New Delhi.

I can say having a good accurate running system is just like your draw off or filter press once you believe in it and use it you will wonder how you did without.

Waking up at 5 am looking at the phone and seeing in real time the temps in the woods the tank levels can be a great way to go to bed NOT WONDERING. I can hit the app and turn the pump on and check back and see if the sap is flowing frozen if the tank is rising and the pump amps. I can then check back and see the changes if the lines are starting to thaw and if the releaser is working. You start to read the info and make decisions if your going to roll over and spoon with mamma or get to making syrup.................................:mrgreen: yup pure mape syrup:o

[coach]

One of the most difficult obstacles I had to overcome was tank level monitoring. .........



I consider something that's unreliable to be practically useless, but increased reliability = costlier system. How much is a hobbyist willing to pay in order to know what's in his tank? Has the sap been running, is the tank overflowing, is it empty, does he make the 15 mile drive to have a look, what is his time or peace of mind worth, etc....

[lyford]

Maybe I’m being overly simplistic but couldn’t u just install a remote camera that you can access with your smart phone.

[coach]

You can access something like a cellular game camera, but I'm thinking there's a fair bit of data being transmitted with pics (I'm steering clear of wifi). For a level reading, I know how to get 100% foolproof reliability. It may be cost prohibitive though.

[Haynes Forest Products]

$3700 to do my system right. When I turn my pump on that starts the entire life blood of the system..........Vacuum. The second sap runs into the tank it starts the info collection. Showing me when the sap started to flow at what temp and how fast the tank filled.

[Tweegs]

On my CDL sensors they all communicate with each other and they set up a web of communication like a cell tower.
That’s what’s called a mesh network…nodes, routers, controllers. Great for leap-frogging a signal from the hinterlands.



It may be cost prohibitive though.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the cost. The goal is accurate and reliable. If you come in at $100 or $250, it’s probably going to be worth it to somebody.

I’ll just toss a couple more cautionary flags here…first, make sure you aren’t stepping on anyone’s patents and second, make sure you are willing to assume the liability. If you pass muster on both counts, develop and test it, then get out there and promote it. I’m all for releasing the entrepreneurial spirit.

[wiam]

You can access something like a cellular game camera, but I'm thinking there's a fair bit of data being transmitted with pics (I'm steering clear of wifi). For a level reading, I know how to get 100% foolproof reliability. It may be cost prohibitive though.


I use a WiFi camera with a hotspot. I use under 2 gig for the season. Cost me a lot less than multiple trips to check on things.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I was walking the isles of Home Depot and in the garage door section they have $100.00 wifi wireless cameras and that is my next move. I want to see whom is coming and going around the collection tanks. I had someone run over my vacuum line breaking it off the moisture trap. Do cameras like that store the images or do you need a some back up of some sorts?

[Tweegs]

The camera in my shack isn’t what I would call a good one (it was a gift), but it has a motion sensor built in. The camera itself won’t store video, but the computer it is connected to will.

Video files can be huge, so I wouldn’t record everything. Some you can set up to record on alarms, like a motion detector, then have it go back to passive surveillance. The one I have will also do IR, (night vision, if you will) and it’s not really an expensive or fancy unit. Probably anything you pick up would have the same capabilities.

The one I have is an Oaku (or something like that). I really don’t recommend it. No instructions came with it and what was available on the net required a PhD in gobly-gook translation studies to even make sense of it. Only through trial and error was I able to get the silly thing working. In fact, had my wife not stepped in, it would have been smashed with a sledge hammer. Brave soul my wife is, coming between me and an electronic gadget that most assuredly needed to be destroyed.

[wiam]

This is one of the ones I use
https://m.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-960P-Pan-Tilt-Network-Home-CCTV-IP-Camera-IR-Night-Vision-WiFi-Webcam/152765141545?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1&epid=24012312259#vi__app-cvip-panel

Can’t seem to find one like my first one.

[whity]

I understand the larger producers having the more costly units. But is there some sort of cheaper system for the small hobby guys? We have 425 taps in 4 different areas with no power or WIFI available. We have Shurflo pumps on solar. But is there a LTE cam set up anyone could recommend just to check sap levels in the tanks? We use the white poly collection tanks. So you can see the levels through the sides. It would save on mileage from physically going to check. Not thinking it needs to take a picture every time a car drove by. But if you could pull it up on you phone and click an image yourself.

[Tweegs]

Some of the game tracking cameras are cell phone capable.

[coach]

I understand the larger producers having the more costly units. But is there some sort of cheaper system for the small hobby guys? We have 425 taps in 4 different areas with no power or WIFI available.

You are the guys I'm targeting. Do you have cell service at the tanks? If not, then satellite would be an option.

[whity]

You are the guys I'm targeting. Do you have cell service at the tanks? If not, then satellite would be an option.
We do have cell service at the tanks. That's why I'd like to make fewer trips to them to check levels. From what I've seen. Game cams that have cell capabilities are $300 and up

[wiam]

We do have cell service at the tanks. That's why I'd like to make fewer trips to them to check levels. From what I've seen. Game cams that have cell capabilities are $300 and up

This camera https://m.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-960P-Pan-Tilt-Network-Home-CCTV-IP-Camera-IR-Night-Vision-WiFi-Webcam/152765141545?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1&epid=24012312259#vi__app-cvip-panel And a $20 straight talk hotspot. Will get you what you are looking for. You will need a battery of some sort. I use a deep cycle with solar panels. Data costs me $45 for the season.

[whity]

This camera https://m.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-960P-Pan-Tilt-Network-Home-CCTV-IP-Camera-IR-Night-Vision-WiFi-Webcam/152765141545?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1&epid=24012312259#vi__app-cvip-panel And a $20 straight talk hotspot. Will get you what you are looking for. You will need a battery of some sort. I use a deep cycle with solar panels. Data costs me $45 for the season.
Thanks Wiam. I'll have to look into that.