Remote Monitoring

[Amber Gold]

I’m strongly thinking about getting a remote monitoring system, and I think the costs have come down enough the costs are justifiable even on a smaller woods like mine (900 taps). The woods is remote from the house, and I work full time all season…both make it hard to keep a good eye on the woods. I think there’s two options: maple company manufactured unit and security cameras.

Maple Manufactured units. I haven’t spent too much time looking to compare the companies, but I’m leaning towards the SmarTrek unit. I’ve had very good luck with H2O customer service, and I think SmarTrek has been around the longest (bugs worked out??), they have a phone app and a upcoming web interface, so I can walk around the woods watching vac levels. Data would be available in real time. I think I can do my entire woods on 3 single port sensors and 1 double. I may or may not need a repeater…not sure if I have some hummocks in the way between readers. A tank level sensor would be nice too, so I don’t make emergency trips back to the woods on an unexpected overnight flow. I can get set up with vac. sensors for about ~$3500. Tank sensors about another $750…next year maybe. Prices would be less the spring discount. This setup would allow me to optimize my time in the woods…focus my efforts.


Security cameras. They’re pretty cheap (Northern Tool or Amazon). I could set one up in the pump shed to read the VFD display (tells me if the pump is running) and the vac. gauge at the releaser. It’d at least tell me if I have any leaks and how big they are. I can check the camera as I walk around the woods and watch how the vac. level improves in real time. Put another camera looking into the tank to visually check liquid level. I think I could get set up with cameras for <$500. This setup would give me the basics and the important information….what are my vac. and tank levels.

I have a mobile hotspot, so that is my internet connection out of the woods.

Looking for peoples inputs on the two alternatives. Are security cameras a reasonable way to go, and will it be beneficial enough, or should I suck it up and spend the money (I don’t mind doing it if it makes sense)? Of the manufactured units is any one clearly better than another?

Thanks for your input.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Amber Gold I went with the CDL system because I stick with my supplier so I cant tell you what is better. I love the system and ability to keep an eye on every part of my woods. I also use a mobil hotspot the Netgear from AT+T. I do have a lag time from the hotspot but its no problem. I would go go with the tank sensor instead of a camera. Every sensor communicates with each other so the more units the better the coverage. Each sensor will tell you what the temp is in real time. The tank sensor will start a graph that shows when the sap started to fill the tank and how fast it fills with the temp as it fills.

I have a sensor at each releaser taped into the manifold. I have the motor start with a Amp meter to make sure the pump is at it best. I really like the fact I ncan keep an eye on the releasers as they build vacuum. You will learn to read the levels to see if its ice in the lines or open flappers from ice. I had one sensor at the end of my longest mainlines and that would give me an idea if the woods are still tight. I cant say enough about how cool it is to feel like I'm walking the woods from my bed.; :mrgreen:

I plan on more end line sensors and with the mobile hotspot Ill get some $100.00 wifi cameras by Ryobi. You will absolutely love the total concept.

[wiam]

Pictures from my $20 eBay wifi camera.

[Mark]

I have over a hundred of the Smartek nodes and never had a problem with any of them. After four seasons they are still working on the original batteries.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

I have looked them over and done some research for the large bush we work in and I think if I was going to get one it would be the Smartrek system even though everything else we do is pretty much CDL.

[DrTimPerkins]

We started experimenting with various systems over 10 yrs ago, having UVM Tech Services and then a group of Engineering Students build us systems. When Smartrek came out, we were an early adopter. We have about 75 vacuum sensors and 6 tank level sensors out now. They work great. Since we have wifi in the sugarhouse, we also use cameras so we can double-check on things. Huge time savers (for finding leaks) and a real big piece of mind.

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Smartrek%20-%20Maple%20News.pdf

[Haynes Forest Products]

And you get to sleep in with the remote pump start................................good night ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for the input. Nobody is local to me, so it’s being ordered and shipped. Like I said, Smartrek gets the leg up because I’ve had very good luck with the H2O support.

Does anybody have the Lapierre Monitoring system, and how well does it work?

Getting temp. readings from each station is a nice feature, but more for personal info than anything else.

I’m good friends with a nearby school that has a sugaring program integrated into their curriculum and he’s all excited about being able to show the kids in real time what my woods is up to.

Wiam…those are pretty cool snapshots from the camera…in the dark too. I put two sheets of metal roofing over my tank, so would need to figure out how to mount the camera so it can see inside the tank.

What’d be cool, and maybe possible, is if I could calibrate the tank level sensor, so it gives me the tank volume instead of a depth reading that I then need to figure out what the sap volume is. That sap flow graphing feature is pretty cool too.

Any pros/cons to the different interfaces? Phone apps or website.

[wiam]

I prefer 360EYE ap cameras. Last two I got from eBay said that in description but use 2 different apps. :/ The 360EYE app you can preset different camera positions. I also have one pointed at my RO so I can keep track of that. I have not tried checking the cameras from anything but my phone.

[Haynes Forest Products]

My tank sensor shows the percentage on a 1 to 100 scale. You do the setting up by measuring your start depth and stop point. I use cage tanks so being flat bottom with numbers already on the tank its was easy.

I will say that Roth Sugar Bush went well beyond what I expected when it was time to set mine up. Because I didn't have internet at the site we had to use a mobil hotspot. Eric came out to my site and did all the set up 4 hour trip one way.

[DrTimPerkins]

Does anybody have the Lapierre Monitoring system, and how well does it work?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was only available to certain selected producers last year and is now being offered for sale. Lapierre spent a lot of time developing and testing their system. It does have some advantages, the primary one being a considerably longer range than other systems (other than Marcland, which is a satellite-based system that is extremely long-range....like anywhere on earth). The interface also has some nifty features. We hope to have a Lapierre system set up at UVM PMRC to test for the 2019 season.

[Amber Gold]

I was curious how the Marcland system worked. Do you know if there's any internet fees to get the signal out? Does each one operate like their own hotspot or something?

What's the range between Smartrek sensors? I'm looking at about 1300' from the base station to each of the end of mainlines. If needed, I could put a relay at the end of the wet/dry line, and then it's probably 900' to the end sensors.

Is it truly direct line of sight, or is there some flexibility with it?

[DrTimPerkins]

You'd have to check with Bob Crooks (Marcland) about the satellite subscription cost. I think there are several variables involved (how much data you want transmitted, how often, etc.). You can set a station up for multiple vacuum readings, but to do that you need to run 5/16" line to nearby mainlines. The technology involved is a bit older, but it is reliable, although a bit costly. I don't know a lot about the cost of the system....I just prefer to have individual sensors set up for each mainline.

1,300' is probably a tad far for the Smartrek sensors (900mHz). The range depends upon how much "stuff" there is between the sensors (trees, foliage, rain, snow). You'd probably want a relay or intermediate sensor (all sensors act as relays, but you can get stand-alone relays too).

Some of the other systems are longer-range. I believe the new Lapierre Datacer has a fairly long-range.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Dr. Tim.

[VT_K9]

We installed the CDL system last year. We have 400 taps and were planning to go to 800, but ran out of time. We will be there this year. We have two tank monitors (one for each location). We have 8 vacuum sensors. We have a sniffer (this device syncs your bluetooth phone to the radio frequency of the system so you can monitor it while working on it in the woods when you don't have cell/wifi service). We will be adding a pump start unit in the next year or so. Waiting to see the final price on their new unit.

We went with CDL because of the excellent support we receive from our dealer. It is definitely a time saver if you are remote. I have my house at the property and it saves a few trips each day to check in on the bush.

Mike

[Haynes Forest Products]

The pump start option is the best thing ever. Being able to wake up and scan the info on your phone and then start it up and see if the lines are thawing out. My pump starter from CDL has the float switch option so if the switch is tripped it will shut the pump off.

[S.S.S]

I was curious how the Marcland system worked. Do you know if there's any internet fees to get the signal out? Does each one operate like their own hotspot or something?

What's the range between Smartrek sensors? I'm looking at about 1300' from the base station to each of the end of mainlines. If needed, I could put a relay at the end of the wet/dry line, and then it's probably 900' to the end sensors.

Is it truly direct line of sight, or is there some flexibility with it? I have 2 sensors that are direct line of sight from one another that are just under 3/4 mile apart and never had a signal issue.

[Brian]

I run the smartrek system 1.5 miles the way the crow flies and it works good. I have a repeater at my garage. My cousin Thad came up and we played around with his system here and it worked, so down to Goodrichs I went and bought the system. Give Kyle at h2o a call he probably would come over and see if the system would work in your woods.The only thing is, is the batteries only last 1 year but it saves me so much time driving back and forth to check things. It is worth it to me.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Does the smartrek system have solar charging on there units?

[DrTimPerkins]

Does the smartrek system have solar charging on there units?

No, but the batteries will last for the whole season with a fairly fast reporting interval. On a slow interval you can get several years from a set of batteries. The newest version of the housing reconfigured the battery case, so you don't need to open up the electronics section to change batteries.

[TheMapleMoose]

Is Tap-Trak still in the game?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes, it most certainly is. Great service!

[steam maker]

can i use my iphone on smart trek or is it still just for android phones?

[markcasper]

I don't have a cell phone. Is there anything that would work for me to get the info to the home computer? One woods has electric available, but am 1 1/2 miles away, the other has no electric, but is a 1/2 mile from the chair i am sitting on, what would i need? am new to this.

[mainebackswoodssyrup]

Smarttrek system includes or has the option to purchase a tablet, not sure about the others.

[DrTimPerkins]

can i use my iphone on smart trek or is it still just for android phones?

Android only. There is a web-interface as well that has gotten considerably better in the past year. They are doing much more development of the web-based side at this point, and probably transitioning away from the Android system over time.

[Amber Gold]

Lots more good info/discussion being added to the thread.

At the open houses, Chad for H2O said they're further developing the web interface and it'll be live later this year I guess.

Smartrek comes with a tablet, which is needed at the Gateway to get the signal out to the world. You'd need another tablet/phone/computer at your house to interact with the system from your recliner.

[VT_K9]

Do your woods between the two sugar bushes connect? We have the CDL unit and a Gateway is required with internet access for the primary point. Then the units build a mess network through the woods. This means several unit connect and data has multiple and reliable paths to travel.

Our Sugarhouse is about 300 feet from my house. I run internet to it over the powerlines which works out to be about 350' based on where the house unit is located. We have wifi in the sugar house and wired connection to a multi-port base and the gateway is hardwired along with some security cameras (they are not part of the CDL system).

I was told in some woods a few extra sensors are installed to improve the mesh and extend the distance. Maybe you can add two between your bushes and they would allow for good signal and data transfer.

CDL vacuum sensors have internal batteries and a small solar panel to keep them charged. Never and issue this year for us. The tank sensor requires 120 or, if you are reasonably handy, you can set up a 12v to 5v converter (ie cell phone charger) and run it off a battery. We used a large truck battery (one we had on hand) and kept the battery charged with a Battery Tender Trickle charger run by solar. In fact this charger brought the battery up to a full charge and it never lost any charge. It would be nice to find time to make and adapter which was USB to the pin charger on the sensor. That way it would run off the 12v to usb plug.

Mike

[Haynes Forest Products]

VT K9 I suppose you could still use the solar trickle charger ti the truck battery and use a small 110 volt converter. I ran 200 ft of extension cord for my tank sensor and that kept it going no problem. Will be adding more end line vacuum sensors so I can get a better read on the leaks and how my woods wake up in the morning.

I can see down the pike they will have a sap surge sensor that will detect sap that is going from a mainline that has to many taps off. This last year I had 32 taps come out of the trees from a long cold windy 10 stretch. I had to put my hand on every drop line because trying to isolate the effected mainline by shutting off valves didn't reveal a dang thing.

I could see having solenoid diaphragm valves that work remotely so I could open and close the mainlines on my phone and see what happens to the vacuum from the end line sensor. With 10 sensors all on the mesh network I would get better reaction time. Once the season is in full swing Im a one man band and walking the woods every day is out of the question.

[VT_K9]

I am avoiding an inverter because they use more power trying to provide 110. We cut the 110 plug off the power cable and soldered a USB fitting in it's place and use a 12v accessory plug and USB adapter to acquire 5 volts.

I understand CDL is coming out with a new and more affordable control unit which can power switches and solenoids for valves. I am not sure on distance between the control unit and valve to function in the woods like you are talking about, but that would be a neat idea.

We are looking at the new control unit to turn the pump on and off. They are designed to handle two loads.

We are still trying to expand to 800-1000 taps for next year with a goal of being between 1000-1200 taps so a more complex system is not easily justified at this point.

Mike

[Amber Gold]

Smartrek. Confirming that if I have a mobile hotspot at the gateway to get an internet connection, that I can look at the data in real time on my cell phone as a sit at work, in my recliner at home, or while I'm walking the woods. Either with an android app or web interface...I"m fine with either one. What's the lag time from fixing a leak and seeing the data update on your phone? I have cell coverage throughout my entire woods.

If there is an app/web interface, is it user friendly?

[DrTimPerkins]

Smartrek. Confirming that if I have a mobile hotspot at the gateway to get an internet connection, that I can look at the data in real time on my cell phone as a sit at work, in my recliner at home, or while I'm walking the woods. Either with an android app or web interface...I"m fine with either one. What's the lag time from fixing a leak and seeing the data update on your phone? I have cell coverage throughout my entire woods.

If there is an app/web interface, is it user friendly?

As long as you have an internet connection the gateway can reach, you will be able to access your ST data on the web or android app off-site. As far as "real-time", there will always be some amount of lag due to the "hopping" of signal from sensor-to-sensor to gateway to internet to your device. Part of this depends upon the settings you use. If you set the interval really low, there is less delay, but your battery life suffers. Set it too long and the delay increases. You need to determine what is acceptable to you, but typically a delay of a few minutes is fine, and people who want to stretch out battery life can run it longer.

Yes, there is both a web interface and an android app (sadly, no native iPhone app). H2O seems to be focusing more of developing the web interface lately. I personally don't find using a smartphone very useful, but perhaps that is because we have over 100 sensors, so scrolling around on a small screen is cumbersome. We use Android tablets more, but have been using the web interface more and more this past year.

As far as user friendly....once it is set it the way you want, the interface is pretty easy. Might be a little frustrating getting there, but what new program isn't that way?

ALL of the various systems from different manufacturers are rapidly getting better and better.

[unc23win]

I have been looking at Lapierre’s Detacer for a while but more lately now that I heard they are offering good deals. Like 20% down 20% upon delivery and the rest June 2019. No internet required and they claim they can transmit 2 miles. My dealer has one and loves it. $1600 for starter and $3-$600 for sensors depending what one. I think this technology is going to just explode the next few years and the functions and capabilities will just keep getting better.

I’m looking at 2-3 vacuum sensors and maybe a tank level for 2019.

[DrTimPerkins]

Lapierre has been watching this niche while working on and designing their own monitoring system. It has some really interesting features that I think will make it stand out. Looking forward myself to getting my hands on it and playing around some next season.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Dr. Tim. That's the information I needed.

Wait...Datacer and no internet!! How do they do it? The costs you have are comparable to the ST, but hotspot/internet costs are adders. Does anybody have more info on it?

[unc23win]

Lapierre has been watching this niche while working on and designing their own monitoring system. It has some really interesting features that I think will make it stand out. Looking forward myself to getting my hands on it and playing around some next season.

I am pretty sure they also took some back between seasons and upgraded them.

[Haynes Forest Products]

My CDL vacuum sensors cost $250.00 each and the tank level sensor is $500.00 each. Tim is right when it comes to real time info there is a lag time but not as bad as waiting for your wife to run up hill with a roll of 7/16 and 2 new batteries and tell me what the vacuum levels are at the releasers and they are 500' apart and come back because she still cant grasp the idea of take her MOBIL phone along.