Identifying off flavor

[blissville maples]

I tap 3300 taps, 5 to 600 are red Maples last year after running High vacuum everywhere at the end of the season we started getting a funny flavor which got significantly worse in a few days I deemed it as buddy / spoiled sap. This year it just came back I went out and pulled all the red Maples after our first boil since the flavor started and I pulled taps it did get slightly better, however still present. One guy I heard mention about yeast in his tanks and flavor I'm wondering since my tanks are extremely yeasty if this could be the problem. Everybody else in my area within miles seems to be making good tasting syrup still. Maybe stainless steel Gathering tanks would be helpful after all.... Any thoughts. If I had to say the flavor is extremely carmely almost toffee like, does not really bite you or leave a after taste it starts toffee caramel e and finishes sweet.....

[NhShaun]

Doesn't sound like too bad of an off flavor, I suppose it could be worse.
Are you're tanks a solid color or exposed to sunlight often ?

[WestfordSugarworks]

Cleaning your tanks frequently, at this time of year especially, would help. Stainless tanks may not be better for storing sap, per se, than poly tanks, but they are easier to clean. Making sure no sun is ever warming up your sap is important too. Cause dirty tanks+warm temps=proliferation of microbes that will mess with your sap.

But if it isn't off-flavored, just different, maybe don't worry too much. Fill up drums and send them to the packer.

[skixcvt]

We rinse our tanks pretty frequently later in the year. Our big stainless tank gets just as yeasty as our smaller plastic barrels.

[blissville maples]

Cleaning your tanks frequently, at this time of year especially, would help. Stainless tanks may not be better for storing sap, per se, than poly tanks, but they are easier to clean. Making sure no sun is ever warming up your sap is important too. Cause dirty tanks+warm temps=proliferation of microbes that will mess with your sap.

But if it isn't off-flavored, just different, maybe don't worry too much. Fill up drums and send them to the packer.

That's what I'm thinking, bascom's buys "color". Not flavor so they will like this light colored off flavor stuff... ( I'm sometimes angered by how they buy color not flavor, for instance an Amber flavored slightly darker syrup will.be purchased as very dark at bascoms, however if a pancake House wants robust syrup this very dark is darker than Amber but has a more rich flavor not robust).


It certainly could be worse tasting it's just not that nice rich maple flavor I like, and not looking forward to processing grade price, but if they just go by color and don't taste it like they typically don't then I'll be happy😁

My tanks are green and.clear, some are in sun however my big tank which they all go into is on shade, I haven't cleaned as much as I normally do since it's close to the end and things have remained cleaner than usual with the cooler temps.

It could be the remnants in the flue pan as we did not clean pans after untapping all reds, next boil should tell.

Dr Tim was saying you can buy an off flavor kit but I got no response from the folks up at the ag Dept. I'd like to know what metabolism tastes like. I'm assuming metabolism doesn't finish sweet.....

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim was saying you can buy an off flavor kit but I got no response from the folks up at the ag Dept. I'd like to know what metabolism tastes like. I'm assuming metabolism doesn't finish sweet.....

Contact the VMSMA or your county association for the kit. The Vermont Agency of Ag doesn't sell them.

[unc23win]

I am also cleaning everything as much as possible dumping boiling sweet in my hot float each night and keeping a close eye on the foam in the flue and tasting the syrup. I am going to purchase a kit.

This was in The Maple News

The kit can be purchased through the Vermont Maple Sugar Makers Association.

The cost is $10, plus shipping and handling.

Contact Amanda Voyer at amandav@vermontmaple.org for ordering.

[Russell Lampron]

I tap 3300 taps, 5 to 600 are red Maples last year after running High vacuum everywhere at the end of the season we started getting a funny flavor which got significantly worse in a few days I deemed it as buddy / spoiled sap. This year it just came back I went out and pulled all the red Maples after our first boil since the flavor started and I pulled taps it did get slightly better, however still present. One guy I heard mention about yeast in his tanks and flavor I'm wondering since my tanks are extremely yeasty if this could be the problem. Everybody else in my area within miles seems to be making good tasting syrup still. Maybe stainless steel Gathering tanks would be helpful after all.... Any thoughts. If I had to say the flavor is extremely carmely almost toffee like, does not really bite you or leave a after taste it starts toffee caramel e and finishes sweet.....

I doubt that the off flavor is coming from the red maples. Most of my taps, about 90% are red maples. All of them are on high vacuum and the only time that I ever got an off flavor was from bacteria which grew in the flue pan when it sat for a few days late in the season. You might be getting something from the yeasty tanks but I haven't cleaned mine at all this season and made great tasting syrup right up to the end which was last night.

[blissville maples]

My bad couldn't remember if it was vt AG or VSMA....that is what it was the VSMA...I left a voicemail as no one was in the day I called and never received a call back. I'll have to try again

Russ- do your reds male bud ends look real swelled, they always do even after they drop leaves bit they are super swelled here. I've never had an issue until last year, and this year is slightly resembling last year but not so bad as last year. It did get a little better taste yesterday, however we boiled the sap fresh and it did not sit an additional day like we have been. And maybe sitting just that extra day in the not so clean tanks made a flavor change. I will note that ontop of the foam the other morning in big tank was some yellowish almost waxy looking stuff, likely yeast and bacteria byproduct or something.

One thing I was trying to do is pinpoint where the flavor is coming from and if pulling the red Maples didn't stop at and others Boil mostly Reds as Russ said, and have no issue it could be the tanks I suppose as last boil might have pointed to that.

[blissville maples]

Russ what's your elevation we're at about 550 ft here.....are your reds swelling?

[GeneralStark]

About the time the new grading system came out I went to a workshop put on by Henry Marckes and he handed out some cards describing the flavor map for maple syrup. It also has a card showing off flavors in maple syrup.

This resource may be helpful.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/VT%200899.pdf

If you scroll down through the intro. to page 8, these cards are shown.

[unc23win]

Thanks General that is a very nice resource.

[Russell Lampron]

Russ- do your reds male bud ends look real swelled, they always do even after they drop leaves bit they are super swelled here. I've never had an issue until last year, and this year is slightly resembling last year but not so bad as last year. It did get a little better taste yesterday, however we boiled the sap fresh and it did not sit an additional day like we have been. And maybe sitting just that extra day in the not so clean tanks made a flavor change. I will note that ontop of the foam the other morning in big tank was some yellowish almost waxy looking stuff, likely yeast and bacteria byproduct or something.

The flower buds are just about ready to open but the leaf buds are still pretty tight. They are swollen like reds usually are but still a long ways from popping.



Russ what's your elevation we're at about 550 ft here.....are your reds swelling?

My elevation is anywhere from 580 to 635 depending on where you are on the property. The buds on the reds at the higher elevation are closer to budding than the lower ones.

[blissville maples]

Well I think I found the culprit to the off flavor not sure that I will get any better seems how we couldn't really break the pans down and clean them. But yesterday upon firing up after about 10 minutes I noticed the hot water went from nothing 2 full flow and started turning syrup color. I looked at the Steam Away window and it was halfway up the window with foam. Upon walking around in this gooey mess it was like walking in egg whites- apparently everything in the pan had spoiled in the previous two days we didn't boil. Drained and rinsed it went back to Boiling made some syrup that look like golden delicate tasted funny but was sweet. I think the flavor got slightly better than what it was two boils ago but still some.nasty remnants in pan, I wish we had time to scrub the back pan but I don't think the quality the sap is that great anyway so......one more boil I think we'll be done.....

[Russell Lampron]

Well I think I found the culprit to the off flavor not sure that I will get any better seems how we couldn't really break the pans down and clean them. But yesterday upon firing up after about 10 minutes I noticed the hot water went from nothing 2 full flow and started turning syrup color. I looked at the Steam Away window and it was halfway up the window with foam. Upon walking around in this gooey mess it was like walking in egg whites- apparently everything in the pan had spoiled in the previous two days we didn't boil. Drained and rinsed it went back to Boiling made some syrup that look like golden delicate tasted funny but was sweet. I think the flavor got slightly better than what it was two boils ago but still some.nasty remnants in pan, I wish we had time to scrub the back pan but I don't think the quality the sap is that great anyway so......one more boil I think we'll be done.....

I'm glad that you found something. Could the same thing have happened last season? From my experiences over the years I didn't think that it was the red maples.

I feel that the red maple gets a bad rap from the sugar maple snobs. The best thing that I did in my operation was to tap the reds in my woods and walk away from the 100% sugar orchard that I used to tap 2 miles away. Even my 94 year old father who would never tap a red maple is impressed with the quality and flavor of my syrup.

[blissville maples]

I never shy away from a red either, friend in the area has red's with no flavor issues. I guess I was thinking one way to know is try.....I know i have always been under the impression and go by the season is over before the flowers or buds play an issue and you confirm this as you tap more reds, and yes lots do give reds a bad rap I have another friend going to cut all his bc it "makes darker syrup" oh well less sap for him. But this flavor thing bothers me.......

[Russell Lampron]

I never shy away from a red either, friend in the area has red's with no flavor issues. I guess I was thinking one way to know is try.....I know i have always been under the impression and go by the season is over before the flowers or buds play an issue and you confirm this as you tap more reds, and yes lots do give reds a bad rap I have another friend going to cut all his bc it "makes darker syrup" oh well less sap for him. But this flavor thing bothers me.......

I wish I could make just a little dark syrup. Last season was all golden and amber. This season was all amber. It's not the trees, it's the processing. I used to start the season at dark and get darker from there and I blamed the trees too. I found out that when I concentrate to 18% that the nitre that precipitates out burns in the bottom of the flues making darker syrup. I built a bubbler system and solved that problem.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have also changed the way I treat my sap. I leave it out in the collection tanks as long as possible and then only RO right before I cook no storing Concentrate more than a few Hrs. I have been concentrating to 18 and higher. I also did have problems with the cold day delays and suffered with ropey sweet from holding it to long.

[Maple Man 85]

Our sugar house is heated, to avoid the gooey mess (a.k.a. mastodon snot) as soon as we are done cooking I drain the flue pan and syrup pan. the flue pan goes back to the sap tank (where it can stay cool) and the sweet stays in the draw tank till we cook again. Then we fill the pans with permeate and vinegar light a fire so it steams a bit and leave it over night. In the morning drain the pans and pressure wash till everything is squeaky clean.:cool:


Well I think I found the culprit to the off flavor not sure that I will get any better seems how we couldn't really break the pans down and clean them. But yesterday upon firing up after about 10 minutes I noticed the hot water went from nothing 2 full flow and started turning syrup color. I looked at the Steam Away window and it was halfway up the window with foam. Upon walking around in this gooey mess it was like walking in egg whites- apparently everything in the pan had spoiled in the previous two days we didn't boil. Drained and rinsed it went back to Boiling made some syrup that look like golden delicate tasted funny but was sweet. I think the flavor got slightly better than what it was two boils ago but still some.nasty remnants in pan, I wish we had time to scrub the back pan but I don't think the quality the sap is that great anyway so......one more boil I think we'll be done.....

[blissville maples]

I wish I could make just a little dark syrup. Last season was all golden and amber. This season was all amber. It's not the trees, it's the processing. I used to start the season at dark and get darker from there and I blamed the trees too. I found out that when I concentrate to 18% that the nitre that precipitates out burns in the bottom of the flues making darker syrup. I built a bubbler system and solved that problem.

This is how I've understood it also. They say The steam evaporator keeps maple syrup at it's intended color- light Amber to fancy. The boiling carmalizes the color likely from the niter as you say.

What is your bubbler constructed of copper? And just a small air pump to power it? That's an interesting concept for sure and I've heard of the bubblers in the past.

Sure is a gooey mess, like walking in egg whites. It's still all over the ground, going to smell good in a couple weeks!

[Russell Lampron]

This is how I've understood it also. They say The steam evaporator keeps maple syrup at it's intended color- light Amber to fancy. The boiling carmalizes the color likely from the niter as you say.

What is your bubbler constructed of copper? And just a small air pump to power it? That's an interesting concept for sure and I've heard of the bubblers in the past.

Sure is a gooey mess, like walking in egg whites. It's still all over the ground, going to smell good in a couple weeks!

Here is a link to my Bubblemaster 1.0 build http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?20529-Bubblemaster-1.0!&highlight=bubblemaster. I've had a difficult time making dark syrup since I built it and started using it but it's a better problem than making nothing but dark syrup.