R/O Questions

[steve J]

I have questions about R/O's. I have a 2x4 Mason with a leader supreme pan and because I am always boiling when sap runs I have never seen a small R/O run. I have no heat in my sugar house so if I had a portable type R/o that I could wheel into sugarhouse can I run it if temps in sugar house where below freezing? ie 9 in morning 28 degrees. It appears my evaporator will evaporate about 18 gallons an hour. so the bucket ro's appear to be to small. Does anyone have experience with the units sold by Homestead Maple in Chazy Ny under the Next Generation Maple Products? I see people mentioning washing or flushing these units at end of day what is that all about? I have a wood floor so cant be flushing out inside shack.

[full moon maple]

No problem below freezing while it's running, just need to wheel it somewhere above freezing when your all done. I built a RO on a dolly with an XLE-2540 membrane that I use with my 2x4 smokey lake hybrid and with recirculation I feed my evaporator perfectly while taking 1/2 the water out. To wash I do a quick warm wash with about 10 of warm permeate them run whatever permeate I made thru the RO. wood floors are not an issue as you just run your hose to wherever you want the water to do.

[Cedar Eater]

The sap temp has to stay above freezing or the RO will not work because the sap or permeate will stop flowing through it. ROs work better with sap warmer than 40F, but can work with lower efficiency when the sap is below that. At the end of the batch or whenever the efficiency drops low enough, the biologicals have to be removed from the membranes to prevent them from spoiling inside. This takes a caustic wash or at least a flush with permeate or well water. At some point, minerals will also get deposited in the membranes and they have to be dissolved with acid and flushed out. The caustic or acid solution needs to be neutralized when you're done with it, so flushing it out on your floor isn't a good idea.

[steve J]

I have another question how long can you hold concentrate before boiling? I ask this as it seems as I have read post over the last few days that some people are holding concentrate for a few days until they have enough to fire up.

[MISugarDaddy]

You should boil concentrate as soon as possible to minimize the loss of sugar from bacteria. I have also read of people holding their concentrate for a day before boiling it, but I know they recommend not doing that.
Gary

[Cedar Eater]

How long you can hold it without spoiling depends on how cold you can keep it. The closer to freezing that you get, the slower it will spoil. If you set it up to concentrate overnight, you should be boiling it that next morning unless you keep it close to frozen.

[dark mountain maple]

Has anyone used NGMP's small RO unit code GEN-45stdro sold by h20 innovation, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how it preforms.

[wnybassman]

Has anyone used NGMP's small RO unit code GEN-45stdro sold by h20 innovation, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how it preforms.

Mid way through the season last year I bought the next one bigger, the 100STDRO. I thought it performed very well, and averaged the 50 gph water removal it was rated for. I am slightly concerned about the longevity of the pump motor seeing there are no feeder pumps on these two units. I have nothing to base this concern on other than the fact that many other RO's have feeders. I bought from Next Gen directly, and talked with the owner for a while the day we picked it up, and he said they have sold lots of these RO's with nearly zero problems.

[Sugarbush Ridge]

In Maple News ?????? Dr Tim ??? wrote about them going to hi Brix and using milk cooling tanks and turning cooling way down. Their hi Brix turned to shush at 22 or 23 degrees so they kept consecrate 1 degree above shush for over the weekend and were cooking Monday. I can't quote exacty as I don't have the article right in front of me. The higher the brix the cooler you have to keep it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I can speak from experience that the sooner you cook it the better your end product. Keeping it as cold as possible the better and yes at slush temperatures the bacterial activity will be way down. Now spending the money on equipment to keep sap cold would be better spent on a better RO that will surpass you evaporation capacity. Any time you stand the chance to spoil your concentrate you stand the chance of turning it ropey so be careful.

Any well designed well made RO should have all the drains necessary to protect all the components by quick draining. If you go the small portable route then keep it covered in the sap shack and bring home and do the wash in your garage. A well placed light bulb and a moving blanket will keep most things warm for an extended period of time so think about that.

[maple flats]

Going back to Proctor's reported experience from the 2018 season, they concentrated to 34-35%, cooled it to 23-24F and I think I read that they only boiled 2x a week, anyone, correct me if my old memory has again failed. The person who works the sugarhouse, and apparently has for years (along with Dr Tim) actually got weekends off.
The final results were a product that was great tasting and the lightest color ever.
I watched a news report which is available on this sight, posted by Dr Tim Perkins about this.

[DrTimPerkins]

Quick Summary. During the 2018 season, at UVM PMRC, we concentrated 27 times, and boiled 12 (counting the final boil-out). Time/energy savings were gained by going to very high brix with the Lapierre HyperBrix (very little left to boil, we needed 2.5 gal concentrate to make 1 gal syrup). Since we had so little concentrate volume to boil on a daily basis, we instead concentrated into a refrigerated bulk tank and held it for 2-3 days typically (at 23 deg F there is essentially almost no microbial activity, freezing/slush point drops with higher sugar content), then would boil 500-650 gal of concentrate 1-2 time per week. Evaporation used only a tad over 0.1 gal kerosene to make a gal of syrup (next year we think we can get below 0.1 gal fuel/gal syrup). Major time savings were due to high RO concentration (start RO, let it stabilize, then head into woods) given the far less volume of concentrate to boil, and in post-evaporation CLEANING time. Every time we boil it takes 2.5 hrs to clean-up afterward, whether we boil for 30 min or 6 hours. Since we boiled 15 times less than we would have without the bulk tank, we saved ~37.5 hrs of time over the season, which could either be spent checking the woods (keeping vacuum high) or at home with our families. Using this system allowed us to schedule the season activities -- almost like a regular job.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Well that settles it that 1,000 gallon working Dairy-Kool for $1,500.00 sitting on a farm in Nebraska is going to Wisconsin. I made all light syrup this year with better sap/concentrate management. I feel that this will be my next improvement.

Dr keep the concentrate in a heated building to be able to regulate the temp. I would think with the outside temps you stand to freeze it solid if you get a cold snap.

[mellondome]

What was the total cost of energy per gallon of syrup? How does it compare to previous years? What was the total usage of energy per gallon?

Using less oil is a big savings, but now you are using a lot more electricity.

[DrTimPerkins]

What was the total cost of energy per gallon of syrup? How does it compare to previous years? What was the total usage of energy per gallon?

Great questions....however it's going to be a little while before we can fully answer them. We did (with the assistance of "Efficiency Vermont") monitor electrical usage. The issue is that we collect so much data it takes half the summer and into the fall to get it all entered and analyzed. One person in our sugarhouse basically spends about 75-80% of their time just taking measurements. So hang in there for a bit and those questions will be answered.

A few quick things though....first, I doubt that the HyperBrix RO takes all that much more electricity than a similarly equipped standard RO of the same capacity (except for high Brix). Secondly, the bulk tank and compressor are in unheated space and are only on when we put concentrate in it (it isn't like a dairy tank that is pretty much on all the time). When the ambient temperature is only 40-50 deg F, it isn't a whole lot to bring the concentrate down to 23 deg F and hold it. Third...the extra time means lots more attention keeping vacuum high, which pays for itself pretty quickly.

[Haynes Forest Products]

When it comes to electric use my entire season cost me around $250.00. That is running everything in the shack. I use small electric heater for back up and in the unheated evaporator room. The bigger the RO the smaller oil tank. :mrgreen:

I really didn't think you could keep it that long without harm. I can speak from experience that holding concentrate to long causes problems all the way down the line. I hate having to cook a small batch of concentrate because of weather and then have it sit in the pans waiting for the next run. Being able to hold off and cook when you can follow a schedule makes cleaning easier. Cleaning my pans after a long day of cooking takes hrs where cleaning the RO is about 1/2 total.

[Bucket Head]

This was our third year using a working bulk tank to hold concentrate. Without hesitation I can say that it was the second best thing we have ever done to improve our syrup making- with the first thing being the R.O. purchase.

I always knew that having the ability to hold onto sap, and then concentrate later on, would be a huge difference maker. Many, many folks over the years told me that "you can't keep sap" and said the cold sap idea was a waste of time. Fortunately, the last bulk tank I brought home had the compressor unit with it and despite it setting unused for years it was made operable again. I was never good at taking "you can't do that" for an answer.

And for those who are considering a tank purchase, don't always assume a not-working or "bad" tank can't be reused. Mine ended up having a leak on one side of the evaporator (cooling part-in the tank) so that side was capped off and it continues to work fine. Have a dairy refrigeration service look at whatever tank you have. You'd be surprised what they can do to keep a tank operational. Sadly, the small dairy farm can not afford to replace a bulk tank- they can only repair it.

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

You certainly can keep sap or concentrate....the (not so) secret is that you have to keep it really cold.

The unfortunate reality for most sugarmakers is that you are locked into processing when the sap runs...or soon afterward. We still have to process the sap with an RO, but because of the level we're concentrating to with the Lapierre HyperBrix, we end up with a very small volume to boil. So we went from spending a lot of time boiling (with our former process) and then cleaning after to very little time boiling with a lot of time spent cleaning up after a short boil. By adding the refrigerated bulk tank, we can RO for a few days until we have enough concentrate for a moderate-length boil (3-5 hrs) + cleaning. Most of the time saved was time we would have normally spent cleaning. Plus we were able to put several drums of syrup through the filter press in one run, rather than just a drum or two. We rarely had a day when we didn't do 4 drums through the press, and those were all ganged together with drum-overflows, so we didn't really have to pay any attention to the whole system until we got 4-5 drums packed. Having them all ganged together also homogenizes the day's boil, so slight fluctuations in density are smoothed out as well.

Another interesting thing we tried was to use an engine blanket heater to warm up the filter press before we got going for the day. We'd turn it on when we started the boil, so that an hour later when we were ready to start filtering the press was already warm and ready to go.

We hardly ever carry around sap, concentrate or water now. After filtering, the press stays in place and we hook it to our hot permeate line and pump that "sweet" right back to the sap tank. When the sugar is flushed from the press, we break it down, rinse and rebuild it. The workflow is designed such that there is relatively little to have to move around in terms of liquid or equipment. What is moved is on wheels. Valves in hard to get to areas are electrically operated with switches (and indicators) near the evaporator. We use cameras and sensors with displays right next to the evaporator to keep an eye on things elsewhere in the sugarhouse. Everything is designed to be run as much as possible from right next to the evaporator drawoff.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Doc do you use agitation/gear motor with paddle to get an even chilling?

[DrTimPerkins]

Doc do you use agitation/gear motor with paddle to get an even chilling?

Yes. When the compressor motor is running, the paddle is turning.

What you don't want to do is forget to turn off the compressor when you're nearing the bottom 1/3 of the bulk tank. Concentrate on the side of the tank starts to turn to ice. It's a bit interesting trying to get 35 Brix slush to run through a 1 1/2" pipe at the end of the boil.

[Bucket Head]

Chuck,

You pretty much have to have the agitator operating if you want the tank to cool correctly- meaning evenly. Without "stirring", ice forms on the inside of the tank because the sap close to the tank bottom/walls is absorbing all the cold. So the bottom sap would be ice cold and frozen solid and the sap at the top of the tank is still whatever temp. it was when it started- maybe slightly cooler from conduction but not much. Certainly not enough to safely hold the sap/concentrate.


Like Dr. Tim said, these tanks don't work hard or long at all because they are only cooling the already 'cool' liquid down a little bit. They were designed to chill 100 degree cow milk down to thirty- something degrees, hold it at that temp. and do it on a 100 degree day in July. Mine does not run very long and it does not need to run often. And since it's well insulated it will hold sap at whatever temp. you set your tank to even if it's in the teens or single digits in the sugarhouse! Electric usage for keeping sap cool is next to nothing compared to farm use.

Obviously my operation is smaller than Dr. Tim's at the PMRC and I have no numbers to post about man hours saved, etc., etc., but Dr. Tim's "we can RO for a few days" is the game-changing result for my father and I. We boil when we need to once we have enough and we no longer worry about losing it.

Believe me, not worrying about that anymore will be life-changing.


Steve

[Bucket Head]

Dr. Tim can type faster than me....Then again, probably everyone can type faster than me! Lol.

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Steve I can see the benefit from every system I have installed over the last 3 years and this has been one of my biggest struggles is timing everything out during big sap runs. the cleaning and collecting has always been my big frustrations. Having my concentrate tank outside will free up needed space in the RO room/kitchen.

I see another post/membrane in my future. Want to get closer to 30% and wonder about extending my rig for my 3rd finish pan making it a 3 X 11.6 and calming the rig down a bit. with 3 day breaks between cooks I can take my time to install a better evap cleaning system.

[mellondome]

You wont want to extend your rig. You will want to add the 3rd front pan and make your flue pan shorter.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I just don't want the expense of finding a 5' 6" raised flue pan that matches my configuration. My flue pan came with 2" threaded ports in all corners and I have them plumbed with dairy pipeline to a central collection point for rapid dumping while cleaning. Right now my rig rocks and I hate to change anything because its not the weak link in my operation. I think the chiller is my next system and another post for quicker concentrating.

[UB29]

Even though a have small hobbyist operation (50 taps); I do share in the never ending conundrum of a)finding time to boil.........and b)sap spoilage. With a small 55-gal evaporator set-up (4 gals/hr. max) and some huge days when the sap is running; I ended up building a small RO this past Spring which worked great (2% to 8% sap in one pass). With concentrate spoilage in mind; I ended up doing boil after boil when I really didn't have enough time (Do we ever?). Not having the resources or size of operation to warrant a refrigerated bulk tank as Dr. Tim outlined; I'm wondering if burying a leg tank deep in a snow bank and storing concentrate there; would give me the few extra days needed to push the boiling out to the weekends when I have the time.

[maple flats]

If buried in snow, it should be OK for a day, maybe 2. I would not try for longer. At 8% you would want 30F to hold longer and depending on the temperature in the tank you might get 35+. Realize that one essential on cooling is the mixing to have a uniform temperature and that will not happen in the tank you describe. Secondly, plastic will not transfer the cold well to the concentrate.

[Haynes Forest Products]

UB29 I love the process as much as the product so making systems to do the this sport is part of my passion. So I go camping and for fun I bring a coil of copper and a small circulator pump from a hot tub that was for the UV system. I carry a 30 gallon tank of water when I go. So I put the coil in the fire and circulate and within 1/2 he I have steam coming out of the tank. Now take the same system and use it for sap/concentrate and dig the coil into the snow bank and you can get the sap down to near freezing temps. Don't stop looking for the next few items that will propel you to the next level. Once word gets out that you need a tank you will have 3 of them.

Bigger tank better storage more sap more syrup bigger evap more fun....................See how this works now get back in line and wait your turn.

[Super Sapper]

Sap will keep better than concentrate so it may be better to keep your sap cooled in the snow bank until you can concentrate and boil. That is how I set up this year with finally having an RO. If kept cool in a clean tank sap will last several days, it will make darker syrup than fresh but still good. The system worked well for me but it was an odd year with no runs over a gallon per tap.