Flat woods small scale tubbing

[Greenthumb]

I have been reading through all the tubing install and have many questions. I am sure my answers are here somewhere and I plan on to keep searching for next year.

We do can do about 50 taps in our woods right now on buckets. ( I am getting really tired of buckets collecting, washing, storing etc. ) Some years and this year was one of them our woods gets very wet and walking is the only way to the taps. Dry years I can use our tractor and my tank to collect.

Our maples make kind of a L shape that probably covers about 4 acres in the woods maybe 500 feet in one direction and 700 feet on the long side. I am wondering how one could go about putting these trees on tubing on flat ground. There is no slope at all. I have been reading about these 3/16 systems and a sureflow pump. my thought would be to run two mainlines in each side of the L and than use tubes to the trees. If this is possible I could potentially expand and have around 100 taps. Probably 70 on one side and 30 on the other side of the L. both lines could intersect into a tank(s) that I can easily get to with my tractor tank and pump when sap is running to haul up my property to the shack.

My first question is: is even this possible? Could I use a 12 volt batter. I could even run power via a extension chord as this is only a few hundred feet from my house to run a 115 pump. I would take the lines down each year as we hunt and gather wood and would not want to leave tubes up. so the system would need to be temporary.

Any out-loud thoughts on this would be great.

Thanks

[Daveg]

Answer to your first question: Yes, and a pump would be of great necessity. Put it in an insulated box with a small light bulb to keep it from freezing. Don't over heat it, however, because the sap will grow extra bacteria if it sits in a warm, moist environment. Be carful that your 300'+ extension Cord is delivering the proper volts/amps otherwise you could ruin the pump.

[Greenthumb]

Answer to your first question: Yes, and a pump would be of great necessity. Put it in an insulated box with a small light bulb to keep it from freezing. Don't over heat it, however, because the sap will grow extra bacteria if it sits in a warm, moist environment. Be carful that your 300'+ extension Cord is delivering the proper volts/amps otherwise you could ruin the pump.

yes that is my concern. That is why I am thinking about the 12 volt. I could charge it easily since it is right near the house close etc.

what size "main tube" would I run. I am assuming the 3/16 taps and drops from trees would be good enough from what I am reading.

[snoskier16]

I'm watching this closely for answers as well since I have a similar property with only a slight grade to a few trees, but probably will only end up next year with 35 to 40 taps on it. My situation lends the opportunity to have the tank(s) right at the house so I can power the pump without too much trouble.

[Daveg]

I ran a 12 volt Shurflow with daily re-charging. I don't know the math for determining if that pump can handle 2 runs totaling 1200 feet and 100 taps.

[Super Sapper]

In my opinion I would start at your tank and run individual lines from tree to tree until you get 25 or so taps and then start another one and do the same. Have all runs start at your tank and use a manifold on the pump for the amount of lines you have. There is no reason for a "mainline" in this situation. I put my pumps in a tote without hear or insulation but use a temperature controller to turn the pump on and off. With a screen just ahead of the pump ice should not be a problem just set the controller to shut the pump off after the lines are frozen.

[WestfordSugarworks]

If you are trying to optimize sap production I recommend the following.



Put your sap collection station in the lowest point and have all mainlines run into it
Install mainlines with a minimum of 2% pitch if possible (this may mean your mainline is high in the air towards the end, especially if its really flat)
Install no more than 5 taps per lateral and space mainlines appropriately so that runs of lateral are short and number of taps per lateral is low
Make sure you can ensure that mainline support wire is installed correctly each year so that mainlines are sloped properly, in this case poorly slope mains will mess with your yield
Use 5/16" lateral and 1" mainline (I believe 3/16" will serve no advantage here because no natural vacuum is possible, and 1" mainlines move air to the vacuum pump more efficiently, increasing yield)
In some cases lateral will have to run upslope into the mainline- that's fine. Better to have this than poorly sloped mains.

[maple flats]

Last year at this time I would have agreed with Westford Sugarworks, but I tried 3 lines last year using a pump to help the flow and then this year I tried 4 more lines, pulling sap from below the mainline. Their flow was more than I would have predicted, but not as much as if I'd had some help from gravity vacuum. What I did, on my longest run which is 550' long, is I put 30 taps on the line, which started 6' lower than the mainline. The best part (to my thinking) was watching the end towards the mainline. The taps were across a driveway from the mainline. As the line got to a tree adjacent to the driveway, I used an end of line hook, which normally goes around the tree and hooks back to itself, then a tap it attached with a "drop" to that fitting. I rather than having a tap there added enough tubing to climb the tree to a limb about 14' off the ground (a climb of about 10' because the line started at about 4' off the ground) Then it goes over the driveway to another tree limb and then slopes down at about 30-35 degrees to the mainline. The line then connected to my mainline which has 26-27" vacuum. That was all done using 3/16 tubing and with 5/16 drops from the tap to the lateral line (the 3/16 from tree to tree). While I have no measurements, and I'm just going by the movement of sap/gas bubbles/sap etc. that I see in the tubing, it worked extremely well and at far less cost than more conventional methods would have cost.
Thus, I say use 3/16 tubing to go from tree to tree, with 5/16 taps and drops (with 5/16 drops there is far less sap pulled back into the tree as the tree freezes compared to 3/16 drops. (A drop is the tubing with a tap on one end and a tee to join it to the lateral (the line from tree to tree). Put 20-30 taps per lateral. In your case I suggest no mainline, just more runs of the 3/16 lateral.. Then build a manifold to be at the pump with all of the laterals entering just before the pump. Also, run a bypass line from your collection tank, also in 3/16 to connect to the same manifold. This line will keep the diaphragm wet, on a diaphragm pump it works far better when the diaphragm is kept wet. After the pump run a 1/21" or 3/4" line to take thew sap to the tank.
The pump can be 12V or 115V, but be careful running extension cords a long ways, you may starve the pump for power which is not good for any motor.
A diaphragm pump if sized right and if leaks are fixed regularly can give you somewhere between 20" and up to 25" of vacuum. The high end of that requires you to check for leaks everyday and fix the leaks. If you don't stay on top of the leaks you might be lucky to get maybe 15" of vacuum if that.

[A&E]

We put 3/16 tubing on flat ground this year, and I have been pretty happy with it. It's not a tremendous sap yield, but much easier collection. For 120 taps: fittings, 3 rolls of tubing, and a two-hand tool, we spent about $500 (not including mainline and a Shurflo pump)...next year should only be $30 for new taps. A couple of my observations and suggestions:

-3/16 tubing is pretty forgiving on flat ground. Since the gas can't pass the sap, it still flows to the lowest point.

-We tapped high to give "slope". With two people, a ladder, and not too many taps, we tapped trees at 10' and it went OK. As long as the taps are above your lateral, sap moves forward pretty well.

-It's nothing for the record books, but we get 12-14" vacuum.

-For our setup, we ran into a star-like fitting on a 1/2" mainline, then 300' to a Shurflo 4008 pump. For us, the pump pushes the sap up about 2' into the tote.

-Our lateral line is about 3' high at the star fitting...and about 6' high at the other end.

[DrTimPerkins]

If you are trying to optimize sap production I recommend the following.



Put your sap collection station in the lowest point and have all mainlines run into it
Install mainlines with a minimum of 2% pitch if possible (this may mean your mainline is high in the air towards the end, especially if its really flat)
Install no more than 5 taps per lateral and space mainlines appropriately so that runs of lateral are short and number of taps per lateral is low
Make sure you can ensure that mainline support wire is installed correctly each year so that mainlines are sloped properly, in this case poorly slope mains will mess with your yield
Use 5/16" lateral and 1" mainline (I believe 3/16" will serve no advantage here because no natural vacuum is possible, and 1" mainlines move air to the vacuum pump more efficiently, increasing yield)
In some cases lateral will have to run upslope into the mainline- that's fine. Better to have this than poorly sloped mains.

This is the best approach if you are trying to make as much syrup as possible or are selling some. You could do it cheaper if you went with just 3/16" tubing, but your yields would be lower.

Alternatively....send your kids out to collect sap like sugarmakers used to do.

[prairietapper]

This is the best approach if you are trying to make as much syrup as possible or are selling some. You could do it cheaper if you went with just 3/16" tubing, but your yields would be lower.

Alternatively....send your kids out to collect sap like sugarmakers used to do.

Well since this describes my new location pretty spot on and it will also be my only location with around 100 taps at one collection spot . I will change my original plan to follow this advice. thank you!

[Cedar Eater]

The best system for you will depend on what you want to maximize, minimize, optimize, etc. I see that you mentioned removing the lines each year for hunting and firewood gathering. That's a big plus for going with 3/16" tubing as maple flats suggested. From the standpoint of overall lower installed cost, long 3/16" tubing runs will be hard to beat. What maple flats said about using 5/16" drops is also good advice. However, if maximizing sap harvest per tap or profit potential is your highest priority, you would do better to pay more and work harder to install and maintain mainlines and laterals. You would get more sap per tap.

I like to experiment with making things cheaper for the hobby producer. Not just cheaper in installed cost, but also lower in installation effort and with less overall difficulty. As a result of that "better is the enemy of good enough" approach, I did this experiment last year,

https://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?30307-The-Poorer-Man-s-Diaphragm-Pump-Vacuum-System

You can use a pair of deep cycle batteries (one running and one charging) to run a 12VDC pump. You can run AC power as far as 150' to run a small AC motor without worrying too much about the voltage drop, but you can run AC power much further to an AC/DC power supply for a DC motor, so the battery option might not be necessary. I'm not just talking out of my exhaust port here, I am an electrical engineer and I have experience in both power and control systems design. A PC or laptop power supply is enough for these pumps. An auto battery charger would be another option.

[cedar syrups]

This is my 2nd year using 3/16 tubing and I love it. In your situation I would use a shurflo 4048 pump and manifold at the pump. As your property is level put the pump and sap tank at the most convenient location and just run the 3/16 tubing to it, you might use more tubing but you don't have the mainline issue. As its level put from 25 - 30 taps on each tubing run and I think you will be happy with the results. Just a thought you probably will tapping all of the maples as its so easy to get carried away. AS far as power for the pump I would use a 12 volt system with either a deep cycle battery with a trickle charger or a 100 watt solar panel to charge the battery, I have both and I really like the solar panel with a small charger control .

[wurmdert]

If you decide to go with a mainline I would consider just leaving it up in the off season and just taking down the laterals. If you wanted to take everything down, you could spend a little more on rapitube so you don't have to deal with the wire. I would paint all my elevation points on the trees for the mainline so that you wouldn't have to re shoot them each year. Just some ideas.

[Greenthumb]

So if I use the 3/16 without mainlines do I just Start at the farthest tree with each run and as I pass a tree use a 3/16 tee and branch off to a 3/16 spile and do that with each line that would meet at the manifold near the pump and tank? Thanks

[Super Sapper]

Yes, start at the farthest tree and snake your way around the trees to your manifold. At each tap spot add drop. A drop is a Tee with about 30 inches of tubing with the spout on the end. I prefer the 3/16 X 3/16 /x 5/16 Tee as you have a better selection of spouts and you are less likely to draw sap back into the tap hole.

[Greenthumb]

Any idea where to get 3/16 X 3/16 /x 5/16 Tees ? I assume you tap than with 5/16 splies

[VTnewguy]

Any idea where to get 3/16 X 3/16 /x 5/16 Tees ? I assume you tap than with 5/16 splies

I saw some at a CDL dealer recently.

[Super Sapper]

I also get the CDL.

[Greenthumb]

So these are what you use from the tree taps and drop ?18882

[VTnewguy]

So these are what you use from the tree taps and drop ?18882

Correct just make sure it's not a end piece. (blocked on one side)

[Mille705]

So on the 3/16 line with a pump at the tank, do you need to try and make slope in the line or can you just keep it as level as possible. How long of line can you have? I see 25-30 taps but does it matter if one line is 250’?

[maple flats]

I'm not sure why so many producers take their line down each year. Two points, the deer will not generally chew of run into the lines, they go under or over them. Often they will actually follow then a ways which for hunting makes it a good hunting tactic. The other point, if you go in to get firewood, just loosen the line in one or 2 places, raise it and drive under. My sugarhouse woods are set up so I both use the tubing to help channel the deer and I can get to all areas to cut wood as needed. In my lease, the landowner hunts it and has shot deer very often, following a line towards his tree stand. He also heats his home with wood and I raise a main where ever he wants to drive thru. I can raise a mainline just by loosening a few side ties each side from where he wants to drive thru, then lift the mainline and wire to give him 9' or more clearance. I've had no issues.