3/16 Newbie Questions

[Cote_in_Colchester]

Hey guys, first post here! Been reading everything you guys post and this is a great site for me to reference.

I did 25 buckets this year (first year tapping) on my property and it was fun and all, but my shoulders could use a break!

I got permission to also do my neighbors which will put me up to about 5 acres of red maples, probably 100 or so trees. So needless to say 3/16 gravity only tubing is attractive to me for next year!

Problem is both lots are pretty flat, probably less than 5 feet of elevation change over both lots.

Some newbie questions:
1. If I "create" gravity by installing the taps higher on some trees at the start of the run, how high can I go on the tree and still get effective sap discharge? Does it depend on the tree diameter?

2. How many trees can I hook up to 1 - 3/16 run? I don't want to run a larger mainline (yet), I think for now I am going to run several 3/16 only "groups" and have a couple of buckets around the property.

3. What other considerations should I keep in mind when installing tubing on flat properties?

Thanks guys!

[DougM]

Easiest place to start is to go to the Maple News & do a search for Wilmot. That will bring up several articles about 3/16 tubing that have a ton of information to help you get started.

As far as I can tell, 3/16 on flat ground without a pump is going to be difficult. We put some up for the first time last year (our first tubing ever) and it worked great, but that was on property with about 40' of fall. We are seriously looking at the Lunchbox vacuum for next year for our flat areas.

Good Luck

[Ghs57]

I don't tap higher than I can reach on any acceptable diameter tree. If there is a lot of snow on the ground at the time, that may put you taps out of reach later.

With such a level bush, there will not be much natural vacuum created by the 3/16. The preferred drop is 35 ft or greater. That said, my backyard bush has maybe a 10 ft drop, and I put a small vacuum unit on the 3/16 lines. It's never run better, and I don't have to go into the woods to collect. My remote bush has the drop for most lines, and runs like mad on gravity alone. Since I no longer wanted to stock both 5/16 and 3/16 tubing and fittings, I am tapping with all 3/16 lines, and only use 5/16 on the return line to the sap house.

Seems most people limit each line to 25-35 taps. You can make each line a home run to your collection area, so there's one pick up point. If possible, run it right to your shack. Tubing is not that expensive. It will save you a lot of time and energy. You can do an inexpensive DIY vacuum unit which will increase your yield.

Going from 25 buckets to maybe 100 on tubbing, be prepared for a huge volume of sap on a good run. You could see well over 100 gal per day on a good days. This was about my production this year with 102 taps on 3/16. Plan on new taps every year and new drops every three years.

Keep reading up on what others are doing, and check the research on the best methods. Good luck.

[Biz]

A small diaphragm pump is the way to go, it will work well even if you don't have any drop. You can put 30 - 40 taps max per line, maybe more if red maples. You will get waay more sap with the pump than without one, probably at least double. No real advantage to tapping higher in the trees according to that I have read.

Dave

[Cedar Eater]

1. If I "create" gravity by installing the taps higher on some trees at the start of the run, how high can I go on the tree and still get effective sap discharge? Does it depend on the tree diameter?

I have stood on the sidewall of my 4X4 pickup truck bed and drilled over my head (and I'm 6' 5") for the top tap on a 3/16" run and that tree still ran great. It was 18" dbh. Going any higher than that becomes increasingly unsafe.


2. How many trees can I hook up to 1 - 3/16 run? I don't want to run a larger mainline (yet), I think for now I am going to run several 3/16 only "groups" and have a couple of buckets around the property.

15 is a good number, since you won't be getting hardly any natural vacuum. If you make the leap to mechanical vacuum, you could boost that to 25.


3. What other considerations should I keep in mind when installing tubing on flat properties?

Seriously think about mechanical vacuum for any flat site. If you can get AC power to it, that can be pretty cheap. The Poor Man's Sapsucker uses a $16 pump, an $8 strainer, and a salvaged laptop power supply. It's mounted to a flat board tied to a tree and has a plastic folger's can for a rainshield. You won't have to tap the trees so high and if you run all your lines to one site, it can handle maybe 100 taps. If you can't get AC power to the site you can use a pair of deep cycle batteries, one in service and one charging, and you would probably want to add a $5 temperature controller to turn the pump on and off. If you can afford a little more, the Shurflo 4008 pump is a great upgrade and putting the setup in a plastic tote is recommended.

[motowbrowne]

I'd strongly suggest adding a shurflo pump to your design. They don't cost much and for a flat area it really makes an enormous difference in sap production. Personally I'd rather have only 50 taps on vacuum than try to run 100 taps over your head to create slope. Of course 100 on vacuum would be even better. They're right about the sap volume warning though. I'm running 300 on vacuum this year. We've already made 55 gallons of syrup and I'm hoping to get to 150.

[Ghs57]

Seriously think about mechanical vacuum for any flat site. If you can get AC power to it, that can be pretty cheap. The Poor Man's Sapsucker uses a $16 pump, an $8 strainer, and a salvaged laptop power supply. It's mounted to a flat board tied to a tree and has a plastic folger's can for a rainshield. You won't have to tap the trees so high and if you run all your lines to one site, it can handle maybe 100 taps. If you can't get AC power to the site you can use a pair of deep cycle batteries, one in service and one charging, and you would probably want to add a $5 temperature controller to turn the pump on and off. If you can afford a little more, the Shurflo 4008 pump is a great upgrade and puting the setup in a plastic tote is recommended.

Cedar Eater, yours is the DIY vacuum setup I was thinking of.

[Cedar Eater]

Cedar Eater, yours is the DIY vacuum setup I was thinking of.

Is it because I specialize in cheap? http://mapletrader.com/community/images/smilies/lol.gif

[Cote_in_Colchester]

Thanks guys, appreciate the prompt and thorough feedback!

So I am getting the sense that I am going to need a pump. What do you guys recommend for manufacturer/type/size? Any good threads on setup?

One of Tim Wilmott's articles read the following:
"For a line with a uniform slope with trees all along the slope, as described in the first example, many trees close to the tank will have less than ideal vacuum. I have not experimented with lines where the entire height difference between the top of the line and the tank was less than about 10 feet. There may be a minimal height difference that is required for steady flow, especially on low sap flow days. While there is some debate about what constitutes “flat” land, 3/16” tubing was never intended for use on land with no real descent from the tree to the tank, and its advantages are likely to be outweighed by its disadvantages in such conditions."

Yikes. Am I crazy here? Should I switch to 5/16 or stick to buckets? I don't want to waste my time (and especially my $$$)!

[n8hutch]

I have a shurflo 4008 on 90 taps with a 3/4 Main line and an average of 10 taps per lateral maybe 12, two places I am lifting the sap , one ladder is 4' the other is 6', it works great, it pulls about 20", all these trees are soft maples and on a good day I'm getting over 100 gallons of 2%, the pump is also on the back of my property and I use it to push the sap up to the Sugar house, it's probably about a 10' rise over 200'. Awesome pumps.

I agree with the guy that said 25 max on a 3/16.

Personally with the kind of slope you have I would use 5/16.

[Cedar Eater]

Yikes. Am I crazy here? Should I switch to 5/16 or stick to buckets? I don't want to waste my time (and especially my $$$)!

Relax. That article does not apply to small scale backyard not-for-profit operations. Those of us who tap 100 trees max do a lot of rule breaking because our economics are different. This is the thread where I documented my build. It's on its second season. Others have built more sophisticated systems.

https://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?30307-The-Poorer-Man-s-Diaphragm-Pump-Vacuum-System

[Cedar Eater]

3/16" tubing is very forgiving of no slope and even slight uphills when you have vacuum on it. If you put a vacuum guage at the top end of the line, it will tell you if the vacuum is not reaching that far, but I have had an 800' level run with 40+ taps that showed a vacuum with the Poorer Man's Sapsucker connected to it. It may not have kept up well with the highest flow days, but I did overflow a 30 gallon barrel in under 10 hours one day. I don't recommend going that distance or that many taps if you can avoid it, but I like to find the limits through experimentation that the PhDs don't bother to do. Right now, I have a 25 tap multi-branched all 3/16" hybrid vacuum line that is getting sap from the furthest tree despite having to suck that sap 4' uphill right in the middle of the run. This stuff is amazing.

[mol1jb]

I think 3/16 would work well only with a pump. Without a pump even if you tapped high on the tree I doubt you would have good success.

[Biz]

I think Tim's article on 3/16 assumed gravity. With a pump and flat ground, if you use 5/16 as a "mainline" you must ensure there are no sags at all in the line, otherwise you will get pump surging. With 3/16 you won't get surging unless there is a leak.

Dave

[Ghs57]

I have a shurflo 4008 on 90 taps with a 3/4 Main line and an average of 10 taps per lateral maybe 12, two places I am lifting the sap , one ladder is 4' the other is 6', it works great, it pulls about 20", all these trees are soft maples and on a good day I'm getting over 100 gallons of 2%, the pump is also on the back of my property and I use it to push the sap up to the Sugar house, it's probably about a 10' rise over 200'. Awesome pumps.

I agree with the guy that said 25 max on a 3/16.

Personally with the kind of slope you have I would use 5/16.

25 max is a good number. Now that I think about it, I have one which exceeds that number, with about 30 total. Oh well, you have to bend the rules every now and then, but it may lower the performance of the line during high volume runs.

(if you go with 5/16, I have a thousand feet or more of "sightly used" line free for the taking:))

[Ghs57]

Is it because I specialize in cheap? http://mapletrader.com/community/images/smilies/lol.gif

"I like cheap, so long as it works!" he says after spending another $1K on equipment.

[Daveg]

You can't do a gravity system on 5 acres of flat ground with only 5' of slope, regardless of tubing size. You will have to stay with buckets or invest in a vacuum system. And your "groups" will either have to have their own vacuum system or skip the groups and put the entire bush on 1 system. You won't have to tap high with a vacuum system. {I believe Dr. Tim said each foot higher on the tree equals 1" loss in vacuum, but don't quote me on it.} The mantra for tubing systems is "Tight Straight and Downhill" or use vacuum:).

[Cedar Eater]

"I like cheap, so long as it works!" he says after spending another $1K on equipment.

I'm sure I've spent at least that much, but I've pinched the pennies so hard that Lincoln thinks I've got something personal against him. http://mapletrader.com/community/images/smilies/lol.gif

[Cedar Eater]

I agree with what others have said about being ready for the amount of sap. Take it from someone who knows, 3/16"tubing with vacuum is a real game changer. I would actually advise against planning to do 100 taps next year. In your shoes, knowing what I know now, I would tap 25 fairly early and plan to tap another 25 if those first taps dried up or didn't yield enough by the time the normal runs for your area start. No sense in spending the extra money if you'll just end up pulling taps because you can't keep up with the flow. But that's only if you don't buy a big evaporator and/or an RO system.

[Cote_in_Colchester]

"I like cheap, so long as it works!" he says after spending another $1K on equipment.

Exactly! I am hearing "pump" and checking out all the tubing and fitting, never mind having to upgrade my turkey fryer to a 2x4 evaporator for next season. This hobby (like any hobby) is getting expensive!

Do you guys have pictures of your pump set ups you can share? Just curious about fittings/etc, specifically how to get from the 1/2 pump connections to the 3/16 tubing.

I see the pumps are all DC so I'll either do a AC/DC inverter or a Sunsaver/Solar Panel setup with a deep cycle battery. Found some good videos of guys setups on Youtube but some of them don't get too detailed.

For starting/stopping, some guys have it set up on a thermostat to trip below/above freezing. Do you guys do that or just manually

Just found this "Lunchbox" setup online - anyone have experience with it? http://www.northwoodsugarworks.com/about.html

Thanks a bunch guys, you're the best!

[Cote_in_Colchester]

Also, is this how loud the shurflo really is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAImPhtywJ8

If I put this in my yard my kids, wife and neighbors are gonna kill me! LOL

[Ghs57]

I've got a Lunchbox. I've had very good results, but last year the air pump stopped working. Dean sent a replacement, and it's been fine since then. You will also need an air compressor dedicated to the lunchbox for the season (a small used one can be had for cheap on CL). He advised having a water trap in the airline at the unit, which I have. No water or other debris can be allowed to enter the unit, as it can jam the pump. The Sureflo pumps are also a good option.

Many options... You have to check around to find one that fits your budget and situation. I'll take a picture of my Lunchbox setup. I like it, and it can handle your proposed taps.

FWIW, I started with a 2x4 flat pan when I built my arch, but there was no way that could keep up with the 50 taps or so I had at the time. I had to consider an RO, or go with a bigger pan. I went with the pan, but now am going to build an RO. Stay small until you know where you want to go with this, then right-size your equipment. Buy it once. It's a big investment I know, but it's very expensive to undersize, then have to scramble to handle your production.

[Cedar Eater]

Also, is this how loud the shurflo really is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAImPhtywJ8

If I put this in my yard my kids, wife and neighbors are gonna kill me! LOL

That pump is sitting in the open on top of a vessel that is built like a drum. Put it or one of the smaller pumps on a pad inside a tote or a cheap ($12) 48 qt cooler and they will be much quieter. Throw a blanket or something else to deaden the sound over it and it will be quieter still.

[Cedar Eater]

For starting/stopping, some guys have it set up on a thermostat to trip below/above freezing. Do you guys do that or just manually

I just do it manually when it is not very remote. It's good to walk out and check the setup when you start and stop it if it is convenient for that.

[DrTimPerkins]

{I believe Dr. Tim said each foot higher on the tree equals 1" loss in vacuum, but don't quote me on it.}

Tapping 5' up on a tree will get you 5' of drop and 5' of vacuum (note that is NOT 5" Hg, but 5' of water column vacuum, or roughly 4.4" Hg before you take out friction and gas bubble losses). Now 4.4" Hg of vacuum sounds absolutely great....EXCEPT that you're neglecting that you are LOSING 5' of head pressure from your trees by tapping 5' higher on the stem.

Unfortunately physics means you can't get something from nothing.

On flat ground, 3/16" tubing is counter-indicated UNLESS you have a pump, but even then, 5/16" tubing will probably do better due to reduced frictional losses.

To get a benefit from 3/16" tubing you need slope to generate an elevational difference to generate natural (gravity) vacuum. When you have that, 3/16" tubing works GREAT. When you don't, it doesn't.

[Cote_in_Colchester]

On flat ground, 3/16" tubing is counter-indicated UNLESS you have a pump, but even then, 5/16" tubing will probably do better due to reduced frictional losses.


I think Dr. Perkins just came in and erased any previous motivation I had on going 3/16. Anyone else running 5/16 rather than 3/16 on a flat lot and had success?

[Cedar Eater]

I think Dr. Perkins just came in and erased any previous motivation I had on going 3/16. Anyone else running 5/16 rather than 3/16 on a flat lot and had success?

You should be careful with what he said. He is geared toward maximizing sap production per tap where 5/16" is a clear winner on flat ground. The extra expense per tap and the extra labor and expertise required for running 5/16" tubing are also important factors. A relatively minor decrease in sap production might not be as important.

[motowbrowne]

I think Dr. Perkins just came in and erased any previous motivation I had on going 3/16. Anyone else running 5/16 rather than 3/16 on a flat lot and had success?

For me, the nice thing about 3/16 for the few flat runs I have is that I can be pretty sloppy with my installation. 5/16 needs consistent slope. Doesn't need to be much, but you can't have any sags. 3/16 can be clamped to a tree, run down on the ground so you can walk over it then back up a tree and on to the pump. Or, up and over a trail. It doesn't make any difference. Now maybe properly installed 5/16 would be a little better, but most of my laterals do have some elevation change, so i just stick with 3/16 in the whole woods, and hope for the best with the flat runs.

Another question I have about running 5/16 on a shurflo or similar pump is when it comes to finding leaks. On 3/16: it's super easy to find a leak because the line will be full of sap above the problem. How can you tell with 5/16? I'm thinking that a shurflo you might not have enough cfm to have an audible indicator of the problem.

I do know a guy around here who runs a couple hundred taps on 5/16 into a shurflo powered by a couple of solar panels.

[prairietapper]

I have a shurflo 4008 on 90 taps with a 3/4 Main line and an average of 10 taps per lateral maybe 12, two places I am lifting the sap , one ladder is 4' the other is 6', it works great, it pulls about 20", all these trees are soft maples and on a good day I'm getting over 100 gallons of 2%, the pump is also on the back of my property and I use it to push the sap up to the Sugar house, it's probably about a 10' rise over 200'. Awesome pumps.

I agree with the guy that said 25 max on a 3/16.

Personally with the kind of slope you have I would use 5/16.

So I take it you are pushing sap up to the storage tank while pulling vac on the system? I was worried I would lose potential vacuum

[Cedar Eater]

I do know a guy around here who runs a couple hundred taps on 5/16 into a shurflo powered by a couple of solar panels.

One of the issues with 5/16" is the amount of extra air that you need to pump out to get the same amount of vacuum in the line. The ShurFlo can certainly pump that volume down, but the smaller cheaper pumps will take much longer to do it and every squirrel chew with have that much more impact on your sap yield.

[n8hutch]

So I take it you are pushing sap up to the storage tank while pulling vac on the system? I was worried I would lose potential vacuum

Yes I am using the same pump to pull the sap and push it up to the sap house. I probably am loosing an inch or 2 of Vac but Its some handy having it in the sap house when I get home.

3/16 Will get you sap on Flat Ground, But as a Rule it will not out perform 5/16 on Flat/Marginal Ground, it is a "Best Practice" to use 5/16 on these Flat Marginal slope woods, 3/16 was never intended to be used on Flat Ground it's For Steep ground. I tried it on Flat Ground and it worked ok year 1, Year 2 was terrible. I now run 5/16 on those same taps and i get more sap.

I have 5/16 laterals that have 12 taps on each and they are Full of sap all the time that's how minimal the slope is.

What's going to flow more on say 2% slope a 5/16 line or a 3/16 line when there both full of sap.
The answer is the 5/16. Good luck .

[DrTimPerkins]

One of the issues with 5/16" is the amount of extra air that you need to pump out to get the same amount of vacuum in the line.

Assuming your lines are leak-free (which they should be if you're attempting to use natural vacuum or pumped vacuum), then once the lines have been evacuated, the amount of air coming into the tubing system through trees (via natural gases produced by the tree) will be equal. There is no extra air.

[DrTimPerkins]

He is geared toward maximizing sap production per tap where 5/16" is a clear winner on flat ground.

Seems like you consider that a bad thing? Actually, we are geared towards producing maple syrup in the fashion that produces the best possible net economic outcome for producers while also maximizing the sustainability of the practice.


The extra expense per tap and the extra labor and expertise required for running 5/16" tubing are also important factors. A relatively minor decrease in sap production might not be as important.

3/16" on flat ground = slightly lower cost, moderately lower production....the more flat ground you cross, the lower the production.
5/16" on flat ground = slightly higher cost, higher production

There really is no difference in labor or expertise needed. Fittings and spouts cost the same -- the only difference is the tubing cost. The tools and techniques to install 3/16" and 5/16" tubing are basically the same.


For me, the nice thing about 3/16 for the few flat runs I have is that I can be pretty sloppy with my installation. 5/16 needs consistent slope.

I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would not want to learn a few simple techniques and installation rules and follow them. Research and decades of practice have shown that poor approaches and installations lead to poor results. If you're trying to save a small amount of money by using 3/16" or 5/16", why would anyone knowingly do it wrong to start with? Doing it in a way that knowingly cuts back on the amount of sap you get is like using a sap bucket with a small hole in it (it's OK...still holes some sap). It is true that supplemental vacuum will help to overcome some improper approaches, but you will definitely get less sap by doing that. If I spend money on a project I prefer to get 2 steps ahead and not two steps ahead and one step back. Different philosophy I guess.

[Cedar Eater]

Assuming your lines are leak-free (which they should be if you're attempting to use natural vacuum or pumped vacuum), then once the lines have been evacuated, the amount of air coming into the tubing system through trees (via natural gases produced by the tree) will be equal. There is no extra air.

Lines don't necessarily stay leak free. Squirrels don't quit chewing just because sap is flowing. Freezing causes all sorts of potential leaks. Lines can need to be reevacuated, sometimes multiple times per season and sometimes during the peak of a run. When you have multiple runs per pump, leaks in one of the runs can affect all of the runs and require extra evacuation.

[Cedar Eater]

Seems like you consider that a bad thing? Actually, we are geared towards producing maple syrup in the fashion that produces the best possible net economic outcome for producers while also maximizing the sustainability of the practice.

I don't consider it a bad thing, but I think you are more oriented toward the larger scale and commercial producer than the smaller scale and hobby producer. That's not a bad thing either. You do much to help both and the commercial industry certainly needs you to be focused on helping them, but the economics are different.


There really is no difference in labor or expertise needed.

This simply isn't true. Heavier tubing per running foot alone means more labor. Carrying more shorter rolls into the field means more labor. The effort to tighten the lines is higher. If a 3/16" line sags due to the weight of sap, that's no big deal. It can be a very big deal and require more labor for 5/16". More trips across unkempt woodlots by older people for perfecting slopes and removing sags also equals more joint pain and a longer recovery time. These are issues to the small scale producer that are worthy of consideration. You could argue that with 5/16 tubing and a higher yield you could tap fewer trees, but with 3/16 tubing and a lower yield you can get the same amount of sap spread out over a longer period of time while taking less sap per tree. The goal for the hobby producer is to enjoy the experience. That can simply be easier with 3/16 tubing because of the small differences. Please accept that as a reality for us.

[n8hutch]

While 3/16 tubing is cheaper it is also much more prone to damage from critters. I have about 20,000 feet of 3/16 out and this year I bet I replaces close to 3,000 feet from critter damage. It's amazing how much they can chew that stuff up once it hits the ground. While my 5/16 lines get chewed also they are much less likely to end up on the ground and they are harder for the animals to knaw off under tension.

Also there is some debate as to how long it will last in the woods, most of mine is on year 2 and if the damage is as bad this year as it was previous years it will have hundreds of repair connectors in it. It does however produce , but I also only have it on 15+% slopes .

[Cedar Eater]

I haven't had much damage from squirrels. They have created leaks, but they haven't chewed any lines right off. I only have about 2400' out and I haven't replaced any, just inserted connectors to patch the leaks. This is my third season with it. I suppose if you look at labor expenditure and tubing cost over several replacement cycles, the 3/16 might not look as enticing from a business perspective, but from the standpoint of enjoyment of the hobby, I'll take it over 5/16 on sloped ground or flat.

[Ghs57]

My aforementioned lunchbox setup. Don't know why the picture is so small. I loaded it from my phone. Pretty low tech, but next year I want to put it in a box or tote of some kind. You can see the moisture trap on the white air line. The vacuum hovers around 18". You have to be diligent about checking/fixing leaks.


18393


18360

[Cote_in_Colchester]

Seems like you consider that a bad thing? Actually, we are geared towards producing maple syrup in the fashion that produces the best possible net economic outcome for producers while also maximizing the sustainability of the practice.



3/16" on flat ground = slightly lower cost, moderately lower production....the more flat ground you cross, the lower the production.
5/16" on flat ground = slightly higher cost, higher production

There really is no difference in labor or expertise needed. Fittings and spouts cost the same -- the only difference is the tubing cost. The tools and techniques to install 3/16" and 5/16" tubing are basically the same.



I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would not want to learn a few simple techniques and installation rules and follow them. Research and decades of practice have shown that poor approaches and installations lead to poor results. If you're trying to save a small amount of money by using 3/16" or 5/16", why would anyone knowingly do it wrong to start with? Doing it in a way that knowingly cuts back on the amount of sap you get is like using a sap bucket with a small hole in it (it's OK...still holes some sap). It is true that supplemental vacuum will help to overcome some improper approaches, but you will definitely get less sap by doing that. If I spend money on a project I prefer to get 2 steps ahead and not two steps ahead and one step back. Different philosophy I guess.


Thanks so Much Dr. Perkins! That's the whole point of me starting the thread - I have read a bunch of back and forth and really just wanted a good honest answer so I don't waste my time and money. I'd rather pay up front then have to replace the whole system with different tubing. Do it right the first time! I have never done it before so I have no preconceived notions. Thanks all for the input!

[Super Sapper]

I want to start of by saying that I highly respect Dr. Perkins, and his findings and advice on doing things to get the best production are the way to go if you can. While I feel that a conventional system is the best way to go if you have the right setup we do not always have that situation. On smaller systems on flat ground I feel that what I have seen, 3/16 can and will outperform a conventional system most times in real world application. Here are my thoughts on this. For one, if you are doing a smaller system (100 to 250 taps) you would probably use an older dairy vacuum pump that gets in the high teens to lower 20's on vacuum. A lot of times this will also require a gas pump to operate and may annoy the owner or neighbors. Any sags anywhere will cost you vacuum at the tap hole. With a surflo and 3/16 most can achieve the mid 20's in Vac at the pump and I have measured within 2 inches at the ends of the lines as long as you stick to the recommended number of taps. This is with not worrying about slope and just running tree to tree going up and down as you go. This alone will give you equal or better performance than conventional. Part of why some of us do this is for convenience and a little more production compared to buckets. This can be compared to cooling concentrate. It does not add to production and profitability compared to the cost but makes things better and easier.
I do not want to seem that I am disputing any of you work or findings, just that life does not always allow some of us to use the best equipment and some just will not take the time to do things correctly for best practices. With this in mind I feel it is an option for smaller operations to look at without having to make sure everything is just right. If you took a random pick of 100 people and split them up to half run a conventional system and half with 3/16 on a level 150 tap bush, I would be willing to bet the ones with 3/16 would have better production. The human element is the variable you need to consider also.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have no problem with people disagreeing (unless the subject is food safety and improper equipment), and realize there are many ways to skin a cat. In this case, the original poster asked about 3/16" on flat ground WITHOUT A PUMP! Adding a pump will definitely make the situation better, and you might get away in that instance with 3/16" tubing, but that isn't what he asked. Without a pump, and on flat ground, 3/16" tubing will seriously underperform 5/16" tubing.

My point is that it is often better to do things the right way from the start. Otherwise you spend half the money (yeah!) and twice the time (boo!) to get one quarter the amount of sap (ugh!), so then you add more taps (and more money and time, ugh again!) to get more sap. If it had been done right the first time, you'd have had better results from the start.

I can pretty much guarantee that you won't find any researcher who has compared yields of 3/16" and 5/16" tubing on flat ground who would tell you that 3/16" tubing will outperform 5/16" -- there is simply too much friction in that setup for good yields compared to properly installed 5/16". 3/16" tubing installation on flat ground with no pump will be cheaper, but WILL produce considerably less sap.

[Super Sapper]

I totally agree that without the pump that 3/16 would not be good to use on flat ground. An experiment I would like to run and you can participate would be the effects of various amounts of alcohol on ice in a tropical environment. This would need several replicates, duplicates etc. to get a handle on where to expand the experiment on the next day.

[DrTimPerkins]

That is my intended retirement line of research. For now I just practice occasionally to make sure I have all the details ready for when the time comes :).

[motowbrowne]

That is my intended retirement line of research. For now I just practice occasionally to make sure I have all the details ready for when the time comes :).

Probably one of my all time favorite things ever said on mapletrader was when someone was asking about everyone's favorite maple cocktail or drink. Your response was unforgettable, though I probably don't have it verbatim.

Take two shots of Bombay Sapphire,a glass of ice, and a flask if syrup. Pour the gin over the ice and drink it. Save the syrup for your pancakes tomorrow morning.

Beautiful.

[DrTimPerkins]

Last summer, when we had a week off, my wife when and I started adding a shot of Baileys to our coffee in the morning instead of creamer. Coffee didn't seem nearly as good when we went back to work.

[wurmdert]

I really don't understand why some hobby or smaller scale produces have their mind set that there is a big disconnect in installation methods between small, medium, and big. The biggest difference from my short career is in the sugarhouse will sap processing and evaporation methods. With tubing the principles are the same. Big producers just do it alot more times. Different land requires different methods. If you have a certain amount of syrup you want to make, plan for that many taps and do it the most efficient way with highest production results. And Im not advocating that everyone get a vacuum pump. If you choose gravity plan your tap count accordingly and do it as efficient as you can with best probably results. This will always be the cheapest cost per gal of syrup produced if you count your hours wasted. If you are big producer and want maximum yield and tap every tree you can on high vacuum, still the same principles. Efficient and highest yield per desired method always win the day. Many researches such as Perkins and Wilmont have done countless hours of leg work as there year round job to help us know what works best and what dosn't. I very much appreciate them and cannot count the numerous errors I would have made that I was able to avoid because of their studies. I still make plenty of mistakes on my own but they cant do it all for me. Atleast Im making these mistakes now and not trying to learn from the mistakes that I was able to avoid because of their research. This is still America. Run you tubing willy nilly if you want.:emb:

[Cedar Eater]

I really don't understand why some hobby or smaller scale produces have their mind set that there is a big disconnect in installation methods between small, medium, and big.

I wouldn't describe it as a big disconnect in methods, just that the economics of the situation dictate the design. And by economics, I don't only mean dollars. There are hours to consider, wear and tear on your body to consider, square feet of space to consider, and most importantly perhaps for the hobby producer, sense of satisfaction and enjoyment to consider. If you are small and dealing with bags or buckets and tired of having your trees turn finicky and your sap flows dry up early and quickly, your primary goal is to get a big increase in sap without a big increase in taps and usually for a low dollar investment and hopefully less effort. That kinda requires vacuum and that's why so many recommended vacuum at the beginning of this thread. It doesn't seem like the OP is expressing a need for anything more than what some of us are saying we would do in his shoes.

It may seem smart to a put a lot more taps on a non vacuum mainline setup for some, but it means a larger finicky bush vs. a smaller less finicky bush. So it may seem smart to do a cheap and easy vacuum setup for others, because that is a quick and dirty way to achieve the relevant goals. And of course for others, it may seem smart to "do it right" with vacuum according to the best practices of an industry that only slowly accepts and integrates new things like 3/16" tubing, 12VDC diaphragm pumps, and a portable pumphouse that looks like a rubbermade tote or a 48qt cooler. What those of us who have attempted it have discovered is that we can meet the goals of the small producer, namely a big increase in sap from the same number of taps, with either 3/16" tubing and natural vacuum on sloped ground or 3/16" tubing and mechanical vacuum on flat ground. So if we employ the philosophy that better is the enemy of good enough, we can achieve our goals with less expense and less effort.

This brings up the question of where the cutoff point would be. When would it make sense to switch to the economics of doing it "right" vs. doing it "good enough"? If you're not trying to make a profit, you're in it for the fun. When does more fun come from perfecting line slopes and maximizing sap per tap vs. pulling a few lines willy-nilly to a collection point and calling it "good enough" because you've met your goal of having a significantly greater yield per tap than the bucket or bag alternative that you were trying to improve upon? This is clearly an individual choice. Sometimes it's not about sucking as much as you can out of the fewest number of trees. Sometimes it's about simplicity and lack of necessity for a higher level of performance. Nowhere is it written that more satisfaction and enjoyment must come from observing the best practices.